Feltons 517

[HerefordSire]

I am curious to see what breeders think about these projected Polled Hereford crosses. I have two cows with 50% 517 genes in which I would like to preserve in embryo and calf form. This would be one way to keep the same percentage of 517 in future offspring. Several questions are entering my mind in which I need help. I would like to lock in, for future use, CE over 10.0 and SC over 2.0, if I am fortunate. One thing that bothers me in the first chart is the use of Braxton Giant 1 which is the same bull a well known poster here uses with damaged credibility so I would rather not include the bull in the pedigree.


...............................FELTONS 517
....................GERBER BUNNER 8G
...............................GERBER 412T TRACY

..........WNH SUPREME 2025

...............................FELTONS 517
....................BJH 517 ROSE 84T
...............................BJH BRAX ROSE 63R


NEW CALF

...............................FELTONS 517
....................RRH MR FELT 3008
...............................RRH MS VICT 6191

..........MY COW

...............................FELTONS 517
....................MY COW'S DAM
...............................MY COW'S GRAND DAM



Anyone know where a bull like this is, or one similar, so I could lock in IMF or CE or SC?


................................FELTONS 517
....................FELTONS ENDURANCE 745
................................FF POSPECTITA 997

..........WHERE IS THIS BULL?

................................FELTONS 517
....................WHERE IS THIS DAM?
................................WHERE IS THIS GRAND DAM?

NEW CALF

.................................FELTONS 517
....................RRH MR FELT 3008
.................................RRH MS VICT 6191

..........MY COW

.................................FELTONS 517
....................MY COW'S DAM
.................................MY COW'S GRAND DAM

 

[Chris H]

Endurance on 517 dams:
SSS 9922 ENDURANCE 0102
FELTONS 682

 

[THG]

Although these calves would be ease calving calves, how much meat and muscle would a linebred 517 exhibit, especially considering the fact that 3008 was a flat muscled bull. Then, 517 being a flat muscled bull, I guess then the progeny won't be very high performing. GIve it a shot and find out what happens, but I bet in the long run, there will be more steer calves than bulls, unless you think that the bulls calves need to stay bull calves. You see, 517's dam, A80, was built just like a dairy cow, big boned nad no meat. She had the look of a dairy cow with a Hereford coat on. I am for one, not interested in 517 or 3008. The 517 daughters did have something that the 3008 daughters didn't, MILK!

THG

 

[HerefordSire]

Endurance on 517 dams:
SSS 9922 ENDURANCE 0102
FELTONS 682


TY Chris H! That feat was impressive. May I ask how you did that?

 

[HerefordSire]

Although these calves would be ease calving calves, how much meat and muscle would a linebred 517 exhibit, especially considering the fact that 3008 was a flat muscled bull. Then, 517 being a flat muscled bull, I guess then the progeny won't be very high performing. GIve it a shot and find out what happens, but I bet in the long run, there will be more steer calves than bulls, unless you think that the bulls calves need to stay bull calves. You see, 517's dam, A80, was built just like a dairy cow, big boned nad no meat. She had the look of a dairy cow with a Hereford coat on. I am for one, not interested in 517 or 3008. The 517 daughters did have something that the 3008 daughters didn't, MILK!

THG



THG...

You know much more than I when it comes to breeding animals, especially Polled Herefords. At the same time, I am not sure you understand what I am trying to do. In this example, I do not intend or expect to create a famous star in one cross. I simply need a place to hold value until I combine the preserved strenths with other strengths. For discussion purposes, let us say you are correct about A80 and let us say I agree with you. Her structure may look like a Guernsey although I have never seen her in person, or in other words, no muscle and or rump and one of my goals is to breed animals with big rumps. So what gives? Why would I do that, as it just doesn't make sense, does it? Am I ignorant? So why do you think I would want to breed a Guernsey this go around? Figure it out yet?

 

[oakcreekfarms]

I think the point is that your numbers don't mean anything if your calves don't grow and exhibit good muscle. Plus you will most likely lose any pigment

 

[THG]

Although these calves would be ease calving calves, how much meat and muscle would a linebred 517 exhibit, especially considering the fact that 3008 was a flat muscled bull. Then, 517 being a flat muscled bull, I guess then the progeny won't be very high performing. GIve it a shot and find out what happens, but I bet in the long run, there will be more steer calves than bulls, unless you think that the bulls calves need to stay bull calves. You see, 517's dam, A80, was built just like a dairy cow, big boned nad no meat. She had the look of a dairy cow with a Hereford coat on. I am for one, not interested in 517 or 3008. The 517 daughters did have something that the 3008 daughters didn't, MILK!

THG



THG...

You know much more than I when it comes to breeding animals, especially Polled Herefords. At the same time, I am not sure you understand what I am trying to do. In this example, I do not intend or expect to create a famous star in one cross. I simply need a place to hold value until I combine the preserved strenths with other strengths. For discussion purposes, let us say you are correct about A80 and let us say I agree with you. Her structure may look like a Guernsey although I have never seen her in person, or in other words, no muscle and or rump and one of my goals is to breed animals with big rumps. So what gives? Why would I do that, as it just doesn't make sense, does it? Am I ignorant? So why do you think I would want to breed a Guernsey this go around? Figure it out yet?

Ok. If I were breeding for performance and you wanted to through in a little thickness and still have the performance and milk, use this bull; VCR East Kodiak 506E. EPD milk isn't right, got proof to show you if you want me to show you pictures of daughters by 506E.

THG

 

[Chris H]

Endurance on 517 dams:
SSS 9922 ENDURANCE 0102
FELTONS 682


TY Chris H! That feat was impressive. May I ask how you did that?

I just did some quick browsing of sires who were sired by Endurance. I'm sure there are a lot more.

Check out Morrisons Stock Farm catalog, there's a lot of 517 breeding for sale in it. Not a lot of line-breeding of 517 but a lot of 517 & Legend combinations with Braxton Giant thrown in. I did see some cows with 517 breeding carrying the service of a sire with 517 breeding. You can find their catalog at Reedent.com if you didn't get it in the mail.

 

[HerefordSire]

I am not sure what numbers you are referring to OCF. If you are referring to SC 2.0 and CE 10.0, then I have to disagree with you if I am thinking about this right. It is OK, if calves don't grow and shrink to weaning as they are classified as seed stock. I hope to preserve genes of an animal born in the early 90s which has passed away. Semen availability of great animals like 517 is scare. The 50% 517 projected calves would be the same as crossing Feltons 517 himself with another dam. Therefore, as a side benefit, wouldn't I be saving the cost of semen if I purchased 517's semen directly from a retailer?

Most breeders, including myself, would like the instant gratification and financial rewards of selecting various unique genetic combinations that excel relative to our peers. Many of us prefer to "day trade" our way into stardom instead of laying a foundation by buying fundamentally strong investments for the long term at a good price. In this case, I am interested in preserving fertility and calving ease so I can breed unique quality product down the road.

For me, it is a minor reward to combine genes, through living animals, that my preferred leaders and those in the industry are not implementing. In other words, if I like a breeder that has excellent results with a bull like Marshall or Progress, I may use him since I know he works. At the same time, I would implement a variant to be unique and to set my product ahead of all others and to lock in the advantage of providing consistency, instead of piggybacking someone else's ideas and actions and successes. After all, what differentiates my operation from my leaders if they have the same product?

Don't forget, I have had an opportunity to watch the 517 calves grow and their mothers. I have seen the muscle of the 50% 517 genes, although I am sure some have more muscle and rump relative to other 517 progeny. The line bred 517 daughters I have contain excellent hind quarters, almost like a big time bull. In regards to muscle, well, you probably wouldn't believe the muscle if I showed you. In regards to losing pigment, at least I have pigment to lose of which I am grateful. Whether the loss of pigment actually occurs is entirely possible, just like any other cross as it is not 100% heritable.

 

[HerefordSire]

Ok. If I were breeding for performance and you wanted to through in a little thickness and still have the performance and milk, use this bull; VCR East Kodiak 506E. EPD milk isn't right, got proof to show you if you want me to show you pictures of daughters by 506E.

THG


http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E&9=505B5A

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we would all have a Merry Christmas. :cboy:

The MM 8 is .77 accurate. Maybe your knowledge comes from the other .23. By the way, where does your specific knowledge come from?

See his family jewels? :cboy:


In this example, I am interested in storing fertility and calving ease.

 

[HerefordSire]

I just did some quick browsing of sires who were sired by Endurance. I'm sure there are a lot more.

Check out Morrisons Stock Farm catalog, there's a lot of 517 breeding for sale in it. Not a lot of line-breeding of 517 but a lot of 517 & Legend combinations with Braxton Giant thrown in. I did see some cows with 517 breeding carrying the service of a sire with 517 breeding. You can find their catalog at Reedent.com if you didn't get it in the mail.



I viewed several 745s in the AHA DB and could not find any. I will look for more. I read the MSF catalog last evening. The print sure did smell fresh (right off the printing press). There was one lot that acquired my interest...you know...the one that makes us re-read the same thing about 20 times, and we come right back to it over and over and over ...feeling? I was very interested in the ability of the owners to negotiate animals with the Feltons. Finally, I got a gist that they were more or less selling out because of market conditions or desperation, etc. Maybe my feelings were wrong.

 

[HerefordSire]

How about this one?


.................................FELTONS 517
....................RRH MR FELT 3008
.................................RRH MS VICT 6191

..........SCHU−LAR 9P OF 27J 3008 ET

................................FELTONS 517
....................SCHU−LAR 27J OF 22G 517
................................SCHU−LAR 22G OF 18E 597

NEW CALF

.................................FELTONS 517
....................RRH MR FELT 3008
.................................RRH MS VICT 6191

..........MY COW

.................................FELTONS 517
....................MY COW'S DAM
.................................MY COW'S GRAND DAM

 

[rocket2222]

Here's a pic of 517 in pasture condition .

Flat muscled, ummm. I'd love to have him in my pasture, I'd stop and give him a hug every day, on the way to the bank.

 

[THG]

Here's a pic of 517 in pasture condition .

Flat muscled, ummm. I'd love to have him in my pasture, I'd stop and give him a hug every day, on the way to the bank.

Hey rocket2222, guess you never saw him in real life like Don Richardson, Johnny Falcuoner, Sid Rogers, and I did when the Felton herd was disperesed. Ask Don Richardson about 517, he will tell you the same thing I did, flat muscled and light red. Pictures again are only worth a thousand words.

THG

 

[CPL]

Pictures again are only worth a thousand words.

Bulls, once again, aren't perfect.

 

[redfornow]

Here's a pic of 517 in pasture condition .

Flat muscled, ummm. I'd love to have him in my pasture, I'd stop and give him a hug every day, on the way to the bank.

Hey rocket2222, guess you never saw him in real life like Don Richardson, Johnny Falcuoner, Sid Rogers, and I did when the Felton herd was disperesed. Ask Don Richardson about 517, he will tell you the same thing I did, flat muscled and light red. Pictures again are only worth a thousand words.

THG

Matt,

Could you get one of them to post?
Not say that I dont believe you. Well I reckon I just dont believe you.
Just so I can be clear, I dont beleive you were there. That you bought that last bull, that you even own cattle.
Heck the most I believe about you is that you are on Reed's mailing list....



PS this post has been supplied by an alias, can you guess who it is????

 

[THG]

Here's a pic of 517 in pasture condition .

Flat muscled, ummm. I'd love to have him in my pasture, I'd stop and give him a hug every day, on the way to the bank.

Hey rocket2222, guess you never saw him in real life like Don Richardson, Johnny Falcuoner, Sid Rogers, and I did when the Felton herd was disperesed. Ask Don Richardson about 517, he will tell you the same thing I did, flat muscled and light red. Pictures again are only worth a thousand words.

THG

Matt,

Could you get one of them to post?
Not say that I dont believe you. Well I reckon I just dont believe you.
Just so I can be clear, I dont beleive you were there. That you bought that last bull, that you even own cattle.
Heck the most I believe about you is that you are on Reed's mailing list....



PS this post has been supplied by an alias, can you guess who it is????

And who is this Alias? Sure I will post a picture os a 517. I don't have a photobucket account to do it though.

THG

 

[rocket2222]

Hey rocket2222, guess you never saw him in real life like Don Richardson, Johnny Falcuoner, Sid Rogers, and I did when the Felton herd was disperesed. Ask Don Richardson about 517, he will tell you the same thing I did, flat muscled and light red. Pictures again are only worth a thousand words.

THG

No I've not seen him. But this is the way I look at it. 517 was born early in 1990, the sale was Oct 30 2003. [I remember this date because its my birthday] That made him 13.5 years old, he had allready bred more cows naturaly than most bulls today breed AI. I'm suprised he could walk I don't know how 13.5 bull years translates in to human years, [maybe HerefordSire could figure that one out] but if you chase a quarter of that many women around the mall, by the time you're 50/55 you are going to look a little flat also. It seems like most the top used bulls today can hardly make it past 7 or 8. Longevity is a important trait.

 

[Brandonm2]

Hey rocket2222, guess you never saw him in real life like Don Richardson, Johnny Falcuoner, Sid Rogers, and I did when the Felton herd was disperesed. Ask Don Richardson about 517, he will tell you the same thing I did, flat muscled and light red. Pictures again are only worth a thousand words.

THG

No I've not seen him. But this is the way I look at it. 517 was born early in 1990, the sale was Oct 30 2003. [I remember this date because its my birthday] That made him 13.5 years old, he had allready bred more cows naturaly than most bulls today breed AI. I'm suprised he could walk I don't know how 13.5 bull years translates in to human years, [maybe HerefordSire could figure that one out] but if you chase a quarter of that many women around the mall, by the time you're 50/55 you are going to look a little flat also. It seems like most the top used bulls today can hardly make it past 7 or 8. Longevity is a important trait.

Exactly, I don't know whether 'THG' was there or not; BUT that a 13 year old bull had a faded coat and didn't have that 'PUMPED' look of a 3 year old is probably too be expected. I like visual evaluation; but I don't know what you can expect to see by evaluating a 13 year old. By then his progeny in production are what you need to be judging him by.

 

[S&S Farms]

I think 517 died in the late 90's at a stud after getting into a fight. I am sure he never made 13

Jeff