Farming the Taxpayer "taxpayers feed the welfare farmer

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EIEIO":29i1h0s2 said:
Don't bring WIC into this if you don't know what it is. It stands for women, infant, and children. Wife is in the healthcare field and I know of the program and it's about one of the only good one's out there.

I know it is a good one that Is why I wanted a piece of it, but they would not give it to me :(

Want some of the Corn subsidies also, wonder if the fact that I grow some corn in the garden would help me to qualify? And would my tiller count as having the equipment, making me able to farm corn?

I just want some free money! Going to go cut me some coupons tonight, I want something for nothing one way or another I fill left out. :D
 
EIEIO":11xhewn6 said:
Alcie, I googled your town and it has a population of 16,900!! My gosh the nearest town to us has a population of around 3K and that is 15 miles away. It's got 2 dang stop lights.

If you lived in an actual (what around here anyway, as I know everything is bigger in Texas) small town you would know the majority of folks are on welfare or some kind of government assistance. I'm sure my wife would like actual "paying customers" but she can't turn folks down without getting sued.

I see your county has the highest milk production of any county in Texas. Go to the post Dun has and someone has a subsidy link, bet ya' a dollar and a bag of donuts them milk producers in your county take more "welfare" than you may like to admit. Least when I checked our county it was the dairy folks that took the biggest chunk.

J

You know, I don't understand this. Eieio, I'm on your side in all of this, ok? What is it that has made you think I have a problem with subsidies or social programs? Cripes, I stuck my dumb neck way, way, way out and admitted I was a liberal!

However, since you have a hard time with lumping folks of one career into a big bag, let me tell you something. I was born and raised in this town...then the population was less than 8,000...and my father owned a successful dairy, and that dairy made my life quite comfortable...and my father did not take part in subsidies...just like your wife does not rape the welfare system.

OK?

Alice
 
APLUSMNT, did not "get" your last post. Must be tired, can't tell if it's a flip-flop from your previous or what.

Alice, PM sent. Sorry, think I can get to sleep now!

Take care,

J
 
EIEIO":3nn7ceh6 said:
APLUSMNT, did not "get" your last post. Must be tired, can't tell if it's a flip-flop from your previous or what.

Alice, PM sent. Sorry, think I can get to sleep now!

Take care,

J

Sleep well...tomorrow is another, hopefully better, day.

Alice
 
EIEIO":2iznwayp said:
APLUSMNT, did not "get" your last post. Must be tired, can't tell if it's a flip-flop from your previous or what.

Alice, PM sent. Sorry, think I can get to sleep now!

Take care,

J

sorry it was Joke, I was thinking I was the first one to mention Wic, just acknowledging it.

I am none to flip flop time to time, I even unnamed all my cows, they look at me funny when I call out 101 instead of Marry Moo now. Kids now swim in my previous floating tank, and my dog is now tied up and not stalking the neighbors cattle.

I might not admit it but I do learn lessons from this site. :D
 
Alice":2h2g3no3 said:
..and my father owned a successful dairy, and that dairy made my life quite comfortable...and my father did not take part in subsidies...just like your wife does not rape the welfare system.

OK?

Alice

The Dairy Price Support Program. The federal price support program affects milk prices across the nation. This program began in 1949 to "assure an adequate supply of wholesome milk at reasonable prices." The support program has raised farm milk prices and helped to stabilize them. The program also has created periodic surpluses that the government has bought at taxpayer expense. The support price for milk is set according to rules established by Congress, usually in the Farm Bills that have been passed every four or five years. These rules have changed from time to time but the basic operation of the program has not.
 
Wewild":253vlctf said:
somn":253vlctf said:
Now your neighbor the janitor he buys a new buffer it costs him $30,000.00 dollars plus he gives the state of Texas I believe it is 8.25% sales tax.

Where did you count in his depreciation?
Why include it. Both Caustic and the janitor are entitled to the same $30,000.00 worth of depreciation. It doesn't matter anyway you can't take the $30,000.00 as a 100% expense and then take depreciation too. It is one or the other not both. You must be one of those real dishonest people at tax time if you take both. Thanks to the way you prepare your taxes that poor janitor is going to have to pay in even more to make up for your dishonest tax return.
 
Caustic Burno":2i4slc4l said:
You are still talking tax laws, I am not argueing tax laws they are there for every American to take advantage of. Not supplemental welfare checks no different than they get in the projects.

CB- Dont take this the wrong way but thats just ridiculous. You say tax laws and subsidies are different, but then you compare subsidies to welfare checks.

Your saying you cant compare apples and oranges, but its OK to compare oranges and grapes.

Some people are just trying to point out they are all fruit in the Government bowl.
 
WORANCH":2t1wluui said:
Alice":2t1wluui said:
..and my father owned a successful dairy, and that dairy made my life quite comfortable...and my father did not take part in subsidies...just like your wife does not rape the welfare system.

OK?

Alice

The Dairy Price Support Program. The federal price support program affects milk prices across the nation. This program began in 1949 to "assure an adequate supply of wholesome milk at reasonable prices." The support program has raised farm milk prices and helped to stabilize them. The program also has created periodic surpluses that the government has bought at taxpayer expense. The support price for milk is set according to rules established by Congress, usually in the Farm Bills that have been passed every four or five years. These rules have changed from time to time but the basic operation of the program has not.

So what? He started his dairy in 1950. Are you pointing out that this is something he had to have signed up for? Are you pointing out that all dairymen are on welfare by virtue of something that congress mandated? Are you pointing out that going into the dairy business meant one was automatically signing up for a form of welfare?

What if I plugged in "beef prices" everytime it said "milk prices?" Would beef producers that feel subsidies are a form of welfare get out of the beef business?

Alice
 
3MR":2lksbvtz said:
Caustic Burno":2lksbvtz said:
You are still talking tax laws, I am not argueing tax laws they are there for every American to take advantage of. Not supplemental welfare checks no different than they get in the projects.

CB- Dont take this the wrong way but thats just ridiculous. You say tax laws and subsidies are different, but then you compare subsidies to welfare checks.

Your saying you cant compare apples and oranges, but its OK to compare oranges and grapes.

Some people are just trying to point out they are all fruit in the Government bowl.

Posted by somn himself.

http://financial-dictionary.thefreedict ... om/Subsidy

There are many forms of subsidies given out by the government, including welfare payments, housing loans, student loans and farm subsidies[/b]
 
Caustic Burno":2njdqpqo said:
3MR":2njdqpqo said:
Caustic Burno":2njdqpqo said:
You are still talking tax laws, I am not argueing tax laws they are there for every American to take advantage of. Not supplemental welfare checks no different than they get in the projects.

CB- Dont take this the wrong way but thats just ridiculous. You say tax laws and subsidies are different, but then you compare subsidies to welfare checks.

Your saying you cant compare apples and oranges, but its OK to compare oranges and grapes.

Some people are just trying to point out they are all fruit in the Government bowl.

Posted by somn himself.

http://financial-dictionary.thefreedict ... om/Subsidy

There are many forms of subsidies given out by the government, including welfare payments, housing loans, student loans and farm subsidies[/b]

This is from the link Somn originally posted and CB has referenced.

Subsidy
A benefit given by the government to groups or individuals usually in the form of a cash payment or tax reduction. The subsidy is usually given to remove some type of burden and is often considered to be in the interest of the public.

It defines subsidy as a cash payment or tax reduction. So by that definition both operations are subidized.

My personal opinion is who really cares. You can call an apple an orange all day long, but its still an apple. If it makes you happy to call it an orange, so be it.

Farm subsidies need a real overhaul. There are some subsidy programs that do very little dollar wise for real farmers.

I define a real farmer as someone who produces an agricultural product for resale or distribution, full time or otherwise. There are also many cost share and subsidy programs out there that are well managed and benefitial to the greater agriculture community.

The missused and illegitimate programs are a blackeye on the industry. We need to get rid of them now before we loose our legitimate programs in the fall out.

We need to do this before cuts are made. Then we need to re-funnel the money into legitimate agriculture and conservation programs. As someone else correctly pointed out, if you dont spend it you will loose it. But we need to overhaul the program now before we loose it all. Its a lot easier to keep something you have than to get it back after its gone.

Most of the programs have a legitimate goal. They just have to many loopholes and oppertunities for abuse at present.
 
Caustic Burno":38mvx281 said:
There is a heck of a difference in cost share and subsidy
Look at the American steel industry and where it is today because of subsidies it virtually doesn't exsist.

http://www.aiis.org/release/?file=release_report.htm

_________________

Its still money for nothing!

In my opinion, the big difference is cost share programs are better managed and have less room for abuse being the participator has to give something to get something.

PS: I dont really know anything about the steel industry, but any program designed to help a particular industry, that suffers from bad management will do more harm than good. I want the farm programs to be ovehauled and revamped before we follow suit.
 
I'm all for cost share programs, but I agree susidies need to go. On a local level some of the fattest Dogs around here, are the one's receiving BIG payments, and believe it or not, some dont even own a plow, or a disc anymore. In Laymen's terms, they are no longer actively engaged in Farming.
 
Crowderfarms":3ll295jp said:
I'm all for cost share programs, but I agree susidies need to go. On a local level some of the fattest Dogs around here, are the one's receiving BIG payments, and believe it or not, some dont even own a plow, or a disc anymore. In Laymen's terms, they are no longer actively engaged in Farming.

Thats why they need a serious overhaul. But I think we need to take a real long and close look at each individual program before we say they all need to go. Do you think John Doe taxpayer sees a difference between a tax break, cost sharing or a subsidy payment, probably not.

When someone says they need to go, regardless of what was meant. The average grocery store citizen lumps them all together and hears farm programs need to go. Thats what a certain political group is preaching right now.
 
3MR

Caustic only reads what he wants to read. It is more of that double standard he uses so often. Most people like this would be called a hypocrite.
 
Farm Reform Reversal
by Chris Edwards and Tad DeHaven
Cato Institute
With support from the Bush administration, Congress appears set to pass a huge farm bill that moves decisively away from agriculture policy reforms enacted in 1996. The increases in this year's bill will cause farm subsidies to cost taxpayers at least $170 billion over the next decade. The costs may end up being much higher. When the 1996 law was passed, subsidies were expected to cost $47 billion in total from 1996 to 2002.[1] Instead, farm subsidies since 1996 have cost $123 billion.[2]
The landmark 1996 Freedom to Farm law was designed to move away from the command-and-control regime that had marked six decades of federal farm policy. The law increased farmers' flexibility in planting and eliminated some price supports for major crops. The law was also supposed to phase down subsidy levels between 1996 and 2002. But after the law's enactment, Congress ignored agreed-upon subsidy limits and has passed huge farm supplemental spending bills every year since 1998. As a result, total farm subsidies have soared to more than $20 billion per year, up from an average of $9 billion per year in the early 1990s (see Chart 1).[3]

Politically Favored Crops
Not all farmers are on the subsidy gravy train. In fact, commodities that get federal payments account for just 36 percent of U.S. farm production. Commodities, such as fruits and vegetables, that are not on the federal dole account for 64 percent of U.S. farm production.[4] More than 90 percent of direct federal subsidies go to farmers who raise just five crops-wheat, corn, soybeans, rice, and cotton.[5]Subsidies are skewed not just by crop but also by farm size. In 1999 the largest 7 percent of farms received 45 percent of all farm subsidy payments.[6] So while politicians love to discuss the plight of the small farmer, they actually dole out the bulk of the subsidies to the largest farms.


Welfare for the Well-to-Do

Figures from the U.S. Department of Agriculture show that the average farm household income was $61,307 in 2000.[7] That is 7.5 percent higher than the average U.S. household income of $57,045 in 2000. Commercial farms, as defined by the USDA, get about half of all farm subsidies, had average household incomes of $118,450 in 2000, and received an average subsidy of $43,379. When large-scale federal farm subsidies began in the 1930s, farm incomes were just half of the national average.[8]
Much of the farm subsidy payout goes to individuals and companies that clearly do not need taxpayer help. A Washington, D.C., think tank has posted individual farm subsidy recipients on its webpage at http://www.ewg.org to illustrate the unfairness of farm welfare for the well-to-do. Farm subsidy recipients include Fortune 500 companies, members of Congress, and millionaires such as Ted Turner (see Chart 2).[9]

Even middle-class farm-subsidy recipients are not in great need of taxpayer handouts. Many farm households earn the bulk of their income from nonfarm sources, which stabilizes farm finances. USDA figures show that, of the $61,307 in average farm household income in 2000, $58,709 came from off-farm sources.[10] Only 38 percent of farm households consider farming their primary occupation, and most family farms have at least one spouse who works off the farm.[11]
Taxpayers to Take Bipartisan Beating
Congress is set to pass a farm bill that will increase farm program costs by about $74 billion over 10 years. The ultimate taxpayer cost will be higher if farmers demand further supplemental spending.
And this year's farm bill will reverse progress toward reducing economic distortions by introducing a new price support program. The USDA noted in a major farm policy report last September that "government attempts to hold prices above those determined by commercial markets have simply made matters worse time after time" by encouraging unneeded output and inflating land prices.[12]
While the Bush administration did signal some initial resistance to such backward farm policy last year, it has now capitulated to the farm lobby. The administration had already shown a willingness to dish out farm subsidies when it signed a $5.5 billion supplemental farm bill last summer.
Sen. Richard Lugar (R-Ind.) had offered a more pro-market-reform farm plan that would phase out subsidy programs and replace them with a voucher system promoting reliance on insurance and other financial instruments. But that was rejected in favor of old-fashioned subsidy approaches.
Farm subsidies are not good for either taxpayers or the agriculture industry itself in the long run. Subsidies induce overproduction, which pushes down prices and creates demand for further subsidies. Besides, real prices of major farm commodities are expected to continue falling as they have for the past 50 years because of advances in technology and economies of scale.[13] Farms that cannot adjust to this reality should exit the industry.
With new national security demands on the federal budget, and spending on the elderly expected to soar in coming years, tradeoffs must be made. Farm subsidies are a good place to start cutting spending, given their harmful economic effects and the unfairness of transferring income from taxpayers to a small group with above-average incomes.
For further details, see "Farm Subsidies at Record Levels As Congress Considers New Farm Bill, Cato Briefing Paper 70.
Notes
1. Congressional Budget Office estimates cited in David Orden, Robert Paarlberg, and Terry Roe, Policy Reform in American Agriculture: Analysis and Prognosis, 1999, pp. 152, 164.
2. Budget of the United States Government, Fiscal Year 2003. This is the 1996-2002 figure for budget function 351 (2002 is estimated).
3. Source for Figure 1 is USDA, http://www.ers.usda.gov/data. Data are for calendar years; figure for 2001 is estimated.
4. Congressional Research Service, "Farm Community Programs: A Short Primer," March 19, 2001. Data are for 1999.
5. General Accounting Office, "Farm Programs: Information on Recipients of Federal Payments," June 2001, p. 22.
6. Ibid., p. 2.
7. USDA, "Agricultural Income and Finance Outlook," September 25, 2001, pp. 20, 29; and U.S. Census Bureau http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income.html.
8. Orden, Paarlberg, and Roe, p. 33.
9. Sources for Chart 2 data are Environmental Working Group farm subsidy database, http://www.ewg.org/farm; Brian Riedl an John Frydenlund, "At the Federal Trough: Farm Subsidies for the Rich and Famous," Heritage Foundation, November 26, 2001, p. 5; John Lancaster, "Farm Aid Benefits Lawmakers," Washington Post, September 1, 2001, p. A1; John Kelly, "Mega-Farms, Government Agencies, and the Rich Get Bulk of Federal Farm Aid, AP Survey Shows," Associated Press, September 9, 2001.
10. USDA, "Agricultural Income and Finance Outlook," p. 29.
11. USDA, Agricultural Outlook, June-July 2001, pp. 15, 17.
12. USDA, "Food and Agriculture Policy: Taking Stock for the New Century," September 2001, p. 47.
13. Orden, Paarlberg, and Roe, pp. 25, 204.
 
That article ignores a few basic facts. One being you cant lump all farmers into a group and say they make more money on average than other Amercans. That puts million dollar vineyards in the same group as the family farmer. Of course the average is going to be higher.

You also cant count off farm income when you are talking about farm programs and there need. The farm programs are there to support farming. The article says nothing about adjusted gross incomes or the much larger debt farmers are required to service than the average American.

While I agree completely with the intent of the article in that its time for a major overhaul. I get worked up everytime I read that article or someone uses it to prove a point. The Cato intitute totally ignored realistic deliniations in attempt to advocate their own position. The Cato insititue is the exact political organization I was referring to that wants to do completely away with the Farm program.

They are a prime example of a political interest group scewering the facts in favor of their own political viewpoint.

I could do the same thing by eliminating corporate farmers from the equation and show family farmers make much less than the average working family.

Wit that said, I do agree with them that we need a compelte overhaul. we just better do it oursleves before groups like the Cato institue do away with them all together.

Incidently CB - They also want to do away with your tax exemption.
 
Agricultural subsidy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Farm subsidies)
Jump to: navigation, search
An agricultural subsidy is a governmental subsidy paid to farmers to supplement their income, help manage the supply of agricultural commodities, and bolster the supply of such commodities on international markets. Examples of such commodities include wheat, feed grains (grain used as fodder, such as maize, sorghum, barley, and oats), cotton, milk, rice, peanuts, sugar, tobacco, and oilseeds such as soybeans.




Contents [hide]
1 Agricultural subsidies by region
1.1 United States
1.2 European Union
1.3 Japan
2 Agricultural subsidies by crop
3 Criticism
4 See also
5 External link
6 Reference



[edit]
Agricultural subsidies by region
[edit]
United States
The U.S. Agricultural Department is required by law to subsidize over two dozen commodities. Between 1996 and 2002, an average of $16 billion/year was paid by programs authorized by federal legislation dating back to the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1933, the Agricultural Act of 1949, and the Commodity Credit Corporation, among others.

The beneficiaries of the subsidies have changed as U.S. agriculture changes. In the 1930s, about a quarter of the U.S. population resided on the nation's six million small farms. By 1997, 157,000 large farms accounted for 72% of farm sales, with only 2% of the U.S. population residing on farms.

Congress has made dozens of changes to the program over the years, as agricultural policy and the economy has changed. One of the more recent acts was the Farm Security and Rural Investment Act of 2002, which is in effect until 2007.

As of November, 2005 the USDA forecast for the fiscal year 2005 is for a trade surplus of $4.5 billion with $62 billion in exports. [1]

[edit]
European Union
Main article: Common Agricultural Policy
[edit]
Japan
Japan is best known for having agricultural subsidies put on its rice industry, with the reasoning behind such moves being cultural.

[edit]
Agricultural subsidies by crop
The New York Times reported on December 8, 2005 that corn subsidies had reached $20 billion per year in the United States and as much as $85 billion per year in the European Union.

[edit]
Criticism
Critics of agricultural subsidies argue that they promote poverty in developing countries, by artificially driving world agricultural prices below the production costs of third world farmers. [1] For example, the Bush administration has imposed quotas or duties on virtually all imports from Afghanistan, as well as Nepal, Bangladesh, and Cambodia. As a result, Afghani farmers can make more money growing poppies, and helping the war lords make heroin, than if the farmers simply grew cotton or corn. [2]

At the same time, both critics and proponents of the WTO have noted that export subsidies, by driving down the price of commodities, can provide cheap food for urban consumers in poor countries. [3] [4] However, this makes developing countries into dependent buyers of food from wealthy countries, rather then allowing them to develop their own agriculture.

Critics also point out that agricultural subsidies incentivize overuse of water, drawdown of aquifers, and pollution of aquifers and surface water with nitrates, phosphates, and pesticides. Agriculture uses 75% of the world's available fresh water, and it is argued that, given the seriousness of the world's crisis in fresh water, incentives should be reversed to encourage less use of water. Agricultural subsidies are also said to incentivise overuse of land, encouraging destruction of forests and wetlands to produce unneeded commodities. For example, the Amazon rainforest is subject to disastrous destruction due to new soybean farms. [citation needed]

Advocates of fiscal responsibility observe that these subsidies unnecessarily exacerbate public debt when many government programs are underfunded. [citation needed]

These programs are also said to run counter to the spirit of the free market. By design, agricultural subsidies protect uneconomic producers and impede fair competition. Thus, agricultural subsidies are a common stumbling block in trade negotiations. [citation needed]
 
Reference your last post. Show me a country that isnt third world that doesnt subsidize. The economic stumbling block to trade is they want us to do things they themselves are not willing to do. Its not just agriculture either.

"As a result, Afghani farmers can make more money growing poppies, and helping the war lords make heroin, than if the farmers simply grew cotton or corn"

I can make more money robbing banks than in the Army, but I dont!

I havnt seen a drug dealer yet with less spending money than a cop. People make choices. Dont enable them by blaming bad or immoral choices on someone else.

These programs are also said to run counter to the spirit of the free market. By design, agricultural subsidies protect uneconomic producers and impede fair competition.

There is no denying this on the international level, it doesnthold true at home as its across the board for a particular commodity. As far as the international level; I care about people at home more than I do people in other places.

At the same time minimum wage and child employment laws do the same thing, not only on an international level, but here at home. Are you advocating we put 12 year olds to work for 11 hour days at 50 cents an hour.


Reference the Cato article - now with highlights - Cato didnt put those highlights there. The fact they included those few qualifying factors in the article is the only saving grace. The problem is they are advocating doing away with the farm program, not revamping them. The article is aimed at the average citizen who is aonly going to see the big picture with the higher dollar figures. Cato knows this, thats why they wrote it the way they did. Its a very old political ploy. They can stand the high ground and say they told the truth, while at the same time realize they hid the truth behind smoke and mirros until it wont be reconized by the average person.

Cato, ACLU, Southern Poverty Law Center, etc, etc all utilize similar spin techniques to advocate their own particular positions.

The world is not a better place because of it.

Truth should and can stand on its own.
 

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