Extreme temp = sick calves

[gcreekrch]

Giving everything a shot of Draxxion is a good idea and works, but terrible husbandry and bad for the cattle business. We sure don't need anymore regulations but with practices like that we'll get them. This is just playing right into corporate farms with a vet on payroll.

Where do you think the idea came from if not from the mega feedlots?

 

[True Grit Farms]

Giving everything a shot of Draxxion is a good idea and works, but terrible husbandry and bad for the cattle business. We sure don't need anymore regulations but with practices like that we'll get them. This is just playing right into corporate farms with a vet on payroll.

Where do you think the idea came from if not from the mega feedlots?

Ah the evil necessary in the cattle business.

 

[wbvs58]

Creek I accept you do what you do to minimise your losses because you "can" but I don't think it is good practice and I think it is abuse of the use of antibiotics and is playing into the hands of those that want to restrict their use but you do it and get away with it for now.

Ken

 

[Silver]

Creek I accept you do what you do to minimise your losses because you "can" but I don't think it is good practice and I think it is abuse of the use of antibiotics and is playing into the hands of those that want to restrict their use but you do it and get away with it for now.

Ken

I think it has been well proven that the only time antibiotics create resistance is when they do not complete the job they were intended to do. As in, if you take antibiotics for say, strep throat, but you start feeling well before your prescription is complete so you quit taking them. If you didn't completely kill the bacteria and get a relapse those bacteria will adapt and become stronger. So giving antibiotics as a prophylactic is far less harmful in the grand scheme of things than not giving enough when they actually get sick.
And back to the feedlot scenario, calves being constantly fed low doses of antibiotic in their feed to accelerate weight gain is where the legitimate problem is, not with the poor soul protecting his investment. I think the optics of a herd dying of BRD would play quite poorly in media situation, in which case the question would undoubtedly be raised: "Why weren't those poor animals treated?"
I can't imagine any responsible animal owner considering this a bad idea, quite the opposite actually.

 

[wbvs58]

All I can say is you are not keeping your powder dry. I know you can do it but in essence you are making use of your top shelf drugs because they are there and the drug companies are willing sellers knowing that one day they will be ineffective but hoping that there will be a new one on the market bigger and better. As far as your justification with using it prophylacticly Silver just look at the medical world now with doctors not prescribing antibiotics for the common cold or flu unless they are certain that there is a bacterial component to try and prolong the usefull life of the antibiotics they have available as newer ones are a lot slower coming onto the market these days, they are just not keeping up.

I understand your useage of these drugs in a very difficult environment which I enjoy looking at photos of but would not like to have to work with but my suggestion is to go about what you do but don't go bragging about it, keep it under your hat, there are a lot of other people out there reading this and If I were you I would not want to draw attention to it. I did not come into this argument to criticise your use of antibiotics though it does raise my eyebrows, I came into this primarily to correct the misinformation that Gcreek was spreading about cows and Pestivirus (BVD).

I hope you and Gcreek and all CT members have a happy healthy and prosperous new year and your cattle free of disease.

Ken

 

[Bright Raven]

All I can say is you are not keeping your powder dry. I know you can do it but in essence you are making use of your top shelf drugs because they are there and the drug companies are willing sellers knowing that one day they will be ineffective but hoping that there will be a new one on the market bigger and better. As far as your justification with using it prophylacticly Silver just look at the medical world now with doctors not prescribing antibiotics for the common cold or flu unless they are certain that there is a bacterial component to try and prolong the usefull life of the antibiotics they have available as newer ones are a lot slower coming onto the market these days, they are just not keeping up.

I understand your useage of these drugs in a very difficult environment which I enjoy looking at photos of but would not like to have to work with but my suggestion is to go about what you do but don't go bragging about it, keep it under your hat, there are a lot of other people out there reading this and If I were you I would not want to draw attention to it. I did not come into this argument to criticise your use of antibiotics though it does raise my eyebrows, I came into this primarily to correct the misinformation that Gcreek was spreading about cows and Pestivirus (BVD).

I hope you and Gcreek and all CT members have a happy healthy and prosperous new year and your cattle free of disease.

Ken

Good advice. May I add, antibiotics can have an adverse effect on the desirable flora and fauna of the gut. When I have to treat with an antibiotic, I often follow-up with probiotics.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

One thing I want to point out - IMO, human DOCTORS are the main reason for the resistance. They have/had been (and many still do) prescribing antibiotics at any sniffle or "boo-boo" for PREVENTATIVE measures.

 

[Bright Raven]

One thing I want to point out - IMO, human DOCTORS are the main reason for the resistance. They have/had been (and many still do) prescribing antibiotics at any sniffle or "boo-boo" for PREVENTATIVE measures.

There is a reason. Patients go to the doctor expecting antibiotics. The doctors want to please their patient and in the case that the patient gets worse, they don't want a malpractice suit hanging fire.

 

[True Grit Farms]

One thing I want to point out - IMO, human DOCTORS are the main reason for the resistance. They have/had been (and many still do) prescribing antibiotics at any sniffle or "boo-boo" for PREVENTATIVE measures.

There is a reason. Patients go to the doctor expecting antibiotics. The doctors want to please their patient and in the case that the patient gets worse, they don't want a malpractice suit hanging fire.

Or maybe the doctors want a trip to Vegas, Atlanta or the Bahamas those are just a couple of the places my son has went on the pharmaceutical companies dime. There's a lot of $money in manufacturing and selling drugs.

 

[gcreekrch]

All I can say is you are not keeping your powder dry. I know you can do it but in essence you are making use of your top shelf drugs because they are there and the drug companies are willing sellers knowing that one day they will be ineffective but hoping that there will be a new one on the market bigger and better. As far as your justification with using it prophylacticly Silver just look at the medical world now with doctors not prescribing antibiotics for the common cold or flu unless they are certain that there is a bacterial component to try and prolong the usefull life of the antibiotics they have available as newer ones are a lot slower coming onto the market these days, they are just not keeping up.

I understand your useage of these drugs in a very difficult environment which I enjoy looking at photos of but would not like to have to work with but my suggestion is to go about what you do but don't go bragging about it, keep it under your hat, there are a lot of other people out there reading this and If I were you I would not want to draw attention to it. I did not come into this argument to criticise your use of antibiotics though it does raise my eyebrows, I came into this primarily to correct the misinformation that Gcreek was spreading about cows and Pestivirus (BVD).

I hope you and Gcreek and all CT members have a happy healthy and prosperous new year and your cattle free of disease.

Ken

Good advice. May I add, antibiotics can have an adverse effect on the desirable flora and fauna of the gut. When I have to treat with an antibiotic, I often follow-up with probiotics.

Bio Moss in the mineral. ;-)

Ken is pretty adamant about me being mistaken. I hope to open his eyes shortly. Tried to wish my vet Happy New Year this morning but just left a message. In due time.......

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I would also like to hear what your vet says about the BVD and BVD - PI issue. I am in total agreement with Ken on this one for sure. I have been involved with testing my calves for BVD-PI (necessary to show & sales) and once they are tested clean, they are clean for life - never need testing again. So, that doesn't mean they will never get BVD in their lifetime, but they will never be a Persistantly Infected animal. NEVER

 

[gcreekrch]

I would also like to hear what your vet says about the BVD and BVD - PI issue. I am in total agreement with Ken on this one for sure. I have been involved with testing my calves for BVD-PI (necessary to show & sales) and once they are tested clean, they are clean for life - never need testing again. So, that doesn't mean they will never get BVD in their lifetime, but they will never be a Persistantly Infected animal. NEVER

I agree with all that.

They can contract the disease at any time, especially in breeding stock if not vaccinated.

My rememberance isn't always the best but the two issues Ken and I haven't come to concensus is ........

1, killed vaccine give the same protection. ( I think that is his stance)

2. A cow can have BVD and get over it. I think this may be partially true but they are always a carrier and if not vaccinated can produce a PI calf.

That is what I remember. As my Dad always said, " I'm not always right but I've never been wrong."

 

[wbvs58]

One thing I want to point out - IMO, human DOCTORS are the main reason for the resistance. They have/had been (and many still do) prescribing antibiotics at any sniffle or "boo-boo" for PREVENTATIVE measures.

There is a reason. Patients go to the doctor expecting antibiotics. The doctors want to please their patient and in the case that the patient gets worse, they don't want a malpractice suit hanging fire.

Or maybe the doctors want a trip to Vegas, Atlanta or the Bahamas those are just a couple of the places my son has went on the pharmaceutical companies dime. There's a lot of $money in manufacturing and selling drugs.

Now don't start me on one of my pet hates, drug companies.

Ken

 

[wbvs58]

I would also like to hear what your vet says about the BVD and BVD - PI issue. I am in total agreement with Ken on this one for sure. I have been involved with testing my calves for BVD-PI (necessary to show & sales) and once they are tested clean, they are clean for life - never need testing again. So, that doesn't mean they will never get BVD in their lifetime, but they will never be a Persistantly Infected animal. NEVER

I agree with all that.

They can contract the disease at any time, especially in breeding stock if not vaccinated.

My rememberance isn't always the best but the two issues Ken and I haven't come to concensus is ........

1, killed vaccine give the same protection. ( I think that is his stance)

2. A cow can have BVD and get over it. I think this may be partially true but they are always a carrier and if not vaccinated can produce a PI calf.

That is what I remember. As my Dad always said, " I'm not always right but I've never been wrong."

No, I would prefer a live vaccine for BVD it is just that our authorities won't approve the registration of one here, just the same our killed vaccine seems to be doing a good job but also I have a closed herd and have very good biosecurity.

We probably are using a BVD vaccine for a different situation to you Creek. I am using it to give my heifers and the cow herd protection from breeding loss with BVD whereas while you are protecting your heifers from breeding loss down the track I would think your primary use of BVD vaccine would be protection of your young cattle both introduced and homebred while in your feedlot at this time of year. While BVD will not make them noticeable sick it drastically lowers their immune system and makes them susceptible to BRD organisms such as Mannheimia haemolytica.

Ken

All we got to clear up now is the cow thing, if you read Jeanne's last post again it might help.

 

[gcreekrch]

I would also like to hear what your vet says about the BVD and BVD - PI issue. I am in total agreement with Ken on this one for sure. I have been involved with testing my calves for BVD-PI (necessary to show & sales) and once they are tested clean, they are clean for life - never need testing again. So, that doesn't mean they will never get BVD in their lifetime, but they will never be a Persistantly Infected animal. NEVER

I agree with all that.

They can contract the disease at any time, especially in breeding stock if not vaccinated.

My rememberance isn't always the best but the two issues Ken and I haven't come to concensus is ........

1, killed vaccine give the same protection. ( I think that is his stance)

2. A cow can have BVD and get over it. I think this may be partially true but they are always a carrier and if not vaccinated can produce a PI calf.

That is what I remember. As my Dad always said, " I'm not always right but I've never been wrong."

No, I would prefer a live vaccine for BVD it is just that our authorities won't approve the registration of one here, just the same our killed vaccine seems to be doing a good job but also I have a closed herd and have very good biosecurity.

We probably are using a BVD vaccine for a different situation to you Creek. I am using it to give my heifers and the cow herd protection from breeding loss with BVD whereas while you are protecting your heifers from breeding loss down the track I would think your primary use of BVD vaccine would be protection of your young cattle both introduced and homebred while in your feedlot at this time of year. While BVD will not make them noticeable sick it drastically lowers their immune system and makes them susceptible to BRD organisms such as Mannheimia haemolytica.

Ken

All we got to clear up now is the cow thing, if you read Jeanne's last post again it might help.

You are getting it. Kinda like car insurance, we only need it if we have a problem..........

I do wonder in Oz, if part of the reason your powers that be are reluctant to approve the live vaccine is because of the extended and in some cases the non exsistant actual calving season in a big part of your country. I have had enough young folks here tell me a lot of the management on the big stations there and it doesn't surprise me why.
If operators started using the MLV on herds that have never been protected it would be an abortion nightmare for the pregnant cows unless they could be effectively sorted away from the vaccinated opens until their turn to calve came about.
I am meandering some here but hope you catch my drift. You think that line of thought has merit?

The last thing the drug companies want on their hands is a wreck.
I think this better explains what I am trying to get across but not as fully as the Doc would explain.

Etiology:
Bovine viral diarrhea virus is an RNA virus of the Pestivirus genus. The most important reservoir of infection in cattle is the presence of persistently infected (PI) cattle. If a susceptible pregnant cow becomes infected with BVD during the first trimester of her pregnancy (between 42 and 125 days), the fetus can become infected with BVD and the result is the birth of a persistently infected (PI) calf. This animal will carry the virus for life, shed high levels of BVD virus from all body orifices and its body will not mount an immune response to the virus because it is immunotolerant. Often PI animals are sickly since the infection can impair their normal immune function, but some survive and become lactating cows. This is problematic for two reasons; they go on to produce PI calves and they serve as a reservoir of infection in the herd. The other source of BVD within a herd is acutely infected cattle. Animals with acute, transient infections can spread BVD to other cattle, but they shed virus at a much lower level and for a shorter period of time than PI animals. This type of horizontal transmission of BVD occurs between cattle in close contact when susceptible cattle are directly exposed to infectious secretions. Veterinarians, farm workers and equipment contaminated with BVD virus can also serve as fomites and spread the disease. Finally, BVD can be spread via infected semen and embryo transfer, but this is rather uncommon and the primary source of infection remains PI cattle.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

OK - you are talking about a BVD-PI calf that survives & becomes a cow. Yes ---- she will shed BVD constantly the rest of her life. But, they do not become BVD-PI by catching BVD. The only way they are PI, is when they are a fetus and the dam gets BVD. Nothing becomes a PI from BVD direct. Only thru the cow passing it on to the fetus.

 

[gcreekrch]

OK - you are talking about a BVD-PI calf that survives & becomes a cow. Yes ---- she will shed BVD constantly the rest of her life. But, they do not become BVD-PI by catching BVD. The only way they are PI, is when they are a fetus and the dam gets BVD. Nothing becomes a PI from BVD direct. Only thru the cow passing it on to the fetus.

Correct, reread the last part about acute, transient infections.

I believe all of these examples are given with naive, non vaccinated cattle in mind. Such as I am trying to get across.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I did read it all:
"The other source of BVD within a herd is acutely infected cattle. Animals with acute, transient infections can spread BVD to other cattle, but they shed virus at a much lower level and for a shorter period of time than PI animals."
Unless I am reading this all wrong:
Acutely infected is not common and it is a shed-er for a much shorter time. A PI is for life - which normally is not a long life.
I am definitely not arguing about non-vaccinated cattle getting sick. Totally agree.
I believe Ken & I are just trying to clarify that an animal, at any age other than fetus, can get sick, but are not shed-ers for life.
A vaccinated animal can get sick with the disease you vaccinate against, but GENERALLY they are able to respond to treatment and recover quickly.

 

[Bright Raven]

Calling Dr. Lucky Pittman.

If Lucky has time, he can sort this out. This is an excellent topic. I had a heifer come here that was bought as open. Therefore, I vaccinated her with Bovi-Shield Gold FP5. MLV. Since she had never been exposed, I was concerned her calf which was in utero at the time the MLV was given would cause a BVD PI calf. I got advice from Lucky and when the calf was born, I took the Wedge Sample from the ear. It came back negative. I also had a discussion with Zoetis Customer service vet.

This is Lucky's power house. He is pathologist and also teaches Parasitology at Western.

Attention: Lucky

 

[Davemk]

All I can say is you are not keeping your powder dry. I know you can do it but in essence you are making use of your top shelf drugs because they are there and the drug companies are willing sellers knowing that one day they will be ineffective but hoping that there will be a new one on the market bigger and better. As far as your justification with using it prophylacticly Silver just look at the medical world now with doctors not prescribing antibiotics for the common cold or flu unless they are certain that there is a bacterial component to try and prolong the usefull life of the antibiotics they have available as newer ones are a lot slower coming onto the market these days, they are just not keeping up.

I understand your useage of these drugs in a very difficult environment which I enjoy looking at photos of but would not like to have to work with but my suggestion is to go about what you do but don't go bragging about it, keep it under your hat, there are a lot of other people out there reading this and If I were you I would not want to draw attention to it. I did not come into this argument to criticise your use of antibiotics though it does raise my eyebrows, I came into this primarily to correct the misinformation that Gcreek was spreading about cows and Pestivirus (BVD).

I hope you and Gcreek and all CT members have a happy healthy and prosperous new year and your cattle free of disease.

Ken

Good advice. May I add, antibiotics can have an adverse effect on the desirable flora and fauna of the gut. When I have to treat with an antibiotic, I often follow-up with probiotics.

Amaferm is great for this.