Extreme temp = sick calves

[gcreekrch]

Mine are vaccinated at appx 3 months with Ultrabac 7, appx 6 months with Ultrabac booster & Triangle4+PHK - both killed. I have been considering Inforce 3 for newborns this year and it's a mod live.

Go to a live vaccine on your cows. Given during the open period a month before the bulls go out. Use Inforce at birth and again at a month. If possible Give the calves a live at 4 months. Your buyers will love you.

You should hide. True Grit thinks MLV Vaccines should be outlawed and the guy who developed them should be shot behind the ear.

He apparently hasn't had to deal with PI or naive cattle put into a situation where they are mixed with a vaccinated herd. Or even mixed with others of their non-vaccinated kind. Those that don't die are chronics or poor doers.

I'm getting an inkling why cattle from the SW are discounted so badly as a whole. Maybe I'm mistaken there.

 

[gcreekrch]

And go to Vision 8S for your blackleg.

Why?

Because then you are covered for H Somnus ( Iteme ) also.

 

[gcreekrch]

To each his own. Everyone can make management decisions that may or may not be the most helpful/successful. Any management is better than NO management.
My personal preference is MLV. Everything I have read or been taught is that killed is more expensive, must be boostered (which doesn't bother me because I re-vaccinate in 30 days), and does not last all year. I super prime my calves, getting 3 MLV shots before a year of age, then then get annual MLV boosters the rest of their life.

Close to same program here. Are you covering both cows and calves for Pasturella also?

And a cheap Blackleg on your cows pre calving to lessen incidence of Enterotoximia (over eating disease) in those big, good doing calves a month old?

 

[Bright Raven]

Go to a live vaccine on your cows. Given during the open period a month before the bulls go out. Use Inforce at birth and again at a month. If possible Give the calves a live at 4 months. Your buyers will love you.

You should hide. True Grit thinks MLV Vaccines should be outlawed and the guy who developed them should be shot behind the ear.

He apparently hasn't had to deal with PI or naive cattle put into a situation where they are mixed with a vaccinated herd. Or even mixed with others of their non-vaccinated kind. Those that don't die are chronics or poor doers.

I'm getting an inkling why cattle from the SW are discounted so badly as a whole. Maybe I'm mistaken there.

I think it is a symptom of being HARDHEADED. My program is about like Jeanne's. I vary from the routine if I need to.

Covexin 8 includes the Clostridium perfringens Type C and D toxoid (you mentioned Enterotoximia) . I use it fall and spring. I saw recently where some of the show folks are including Type A toxoid component.

I would also mention Mannheimia haemolytica.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

My mature cows only receive BS5L5HB. Calves get OneShot Ultra8, BS5L5HB at 3 months (and after weaning the same), UltraChoice 8, & BS5L5HB at 4 months. As mentioned, I am adding Inforce at birth.

 

[TCRanch]

My vaccination program is what my vet recommends - for my operation. Bull calves get Covexin8 when they're castrated, the heifers get Ultrabac 8, the Triangle is at 6 months, cows/bulls/replacement heifers get Vira Shield, all of them get pinkeye, replacement heifers get a MLV 5wayVL5 when they're BANGS/pelvic measured. I have a closed herd; no mixing here. That said, I'm always open for suggestions/improvement and will discuss with my vet.

 

[wbvs58]

Go to a live vaccine on your cows. Given during the open period a month before the bulls go out. Use Inforce at birth and again at a month. If possible Give the calves a live at 4 months. Your buyers will love you.

You should hide. True Grit thinks MLV Vaccines should be outlawed and the guy who developed them should be shot behind the ear.

He apparently hasn't had to deal with PI or naive cattle put into a situation where they are mixed with a vaccinated herd. Or even mixed with others of their non-vaccinated kind. Those that don't die are chronics or poor doers.

I'm getting an inkling why cattle from the SW are discounted so badly as a whole. Maybe I'm mistaken there.

I don't understand why you are saying PI or naieve cattle I would think they are at opposite ends of the spectrum assuming you are talking about pestivirus. Naieve cattle exposed to a PI you would not even know they had pestivirus and recover completely only detrimental if they are early pregnant.

Ken

 

[gcreekrch]

My vaccination program is what my vet recommends - for my operation. Bull calves get Covexin8 when they're castrated, the heifers get Ultrabac 8, the Triangle is at 6 months, cows/bulls/replacement heifers get Vira Shield, all of them get pinkeye, replacement heifers get a MLV 5wayVL5 when they're BANGS/pelvic measured. I have a closed herd; no mixing here. That said, I'm always open for suggestions/improvement and will discuss with my vet.

Do you buy bulls or have a neighbor that vaccinates his cows with a live?

We have been using some sort of MLV on our cow herd for 20 + years. Have had the experience of having cows from a herd using killed vaccine bought in that got awful sick or died from BRD. Have had the same experience with calves.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Go to a live vaccine on your cows. Given during the open period a month before the bulls go out. Use Inforce at birth and again at a month. If possible Give the calves a live at 4 months. Your buyers will love you.

You should hide. True Grit thinks MLV Vaccines should be outlawed and the guy who developed them should be shot behind the ear.

He apparently hasn't had to deal with PI or naive cattle put into a situation where they are mixed with a vaccinated herd. Or even mixed with others of their non-vaccinated kind. Those that don't die are chronics or poor doers.

I'm getting an inkling why cattle from the SW are discounted so badly as a whole. Maybe I'm mistaken there.

No I think your on to the problem price wise, very little to no management, and none of my neighbors precondition any calves, they sell straight off the cow. On our commercial and trader cows, the only vaccines we administer is Covexin 8 or Calvary 9. I see no need in vaccinating healthy cows. Further more we cull any commercial cow that we have to treat for a sickness. If our registered cattle are going to a specialty sale where they need to be vaccinated, we do so according to the sale rules.
We live in different parts of the world, but I'll put my cattle up against anyone's when it comes to health. I consider myself very lucky when it comes to the health of our cattle. I think I had to treat a sick cow three years ago in my commercial herd, and in our registered herd we doctor a couple cows and caves a year. IMO Vitamins, minerals, condition and a clean water source means more than all the vaccines combined to animal health.

 

[gcreekrch]

You should hide. True Grit thinks MLV Vaccines should be outlawed and the guy who developed them should be shot behind the ear.

He apparently hasn't had to deal with PI or naive cattle put into a situation where they are mixed with a vaccinated herd. Or even mixed with others of their non-vaccinated kind. Those that don't die are chronics or poor doers.

I'm getting an inkling why cattle from the SW are discounted so badly as a whole. Maybe I'm mistaken there.

I don't understand why you are saying PI or naieve cattle I would think they are at opposite ends of the spectrum assuming you are talking about pestivirus. Naieve cattle exposed to a PI you would not even know they had pestivirus and recover completely only detrimental if they are early pregnant.

Ken

Pi calves can live a long time. Some die when vaccinated with a live, some just become chronics that recover for a time and then get sick again. Pi calves I understand can come from herds using a killed vaccine. What is the use of spending money if it doesn't work?
Naive calves come from those not using any program at all. Our incoming winter projects are vaccinated with Vista Once and Vision 8S and given a Draxxin at the same time. The naive calves might need to be treated with Resflor about the time the Draxxin wears off. Once. The PI's as said. never seem to get well.
This area is getting far better at vaccination programs. At all calf sales here the list of contributers also includes their vaccination programs. Those with nothing or "Blackleg" only take less money for their cattle.

 

[gcreekrch]

You should hide. True Grit thinks MLV Vaccines should be outlawed and the guy who developed them should be shot behind the ear.

He apparently hasn't had to deal with PI or naive cattle put into a situation where they are mixed with a vaccinated herd. Or even mixed with others of their non-vaccinated kind. Those that don't die are chronics or poor doers.

I'm getting an inkling why cattle from the SW are discounted so badly as a whole. Maybe I'm mistaken there.

No I think your on to the problem price wise, very little to no management, and none of my neighbors precondition any calves, they sell straight off the cow. On our commercial and trader cows, the only vaccines we administer is Covexin 8 or Calvary 9. I see no need in vaccinating healthy cows. Further more we cull any commercial cow that we have to treat for a sickness. If our registered cattle are going to a specialty sale where they need to be vaccinated, we do so according to the sale rules.
We live in different parts of the world, but I'll put my cattle up against anyone's when it comes to health. I consider myself very lucky when it comes to the health of our cattle. I think I had to treat a sick cow three years ago in my commercial herd, and in our registered herd we doctor a couple cows and caves a year. IMO Vitamins, minerals, condition and a clean water source means more than all the vaccines combined to animal health.

Add a good vaccination program to your cow herd and I will agree with your last sentence 100%.

A calf gets his life's first immunities from a good colostrum. If that cow is covered at the open period 30 days before bulls are turned out she is giving that calf a good start. PI calves become so in the cow.

Most every ranch in BC sells calves straight off the cow. Feedlots knowing that a booster to those calves on arrival will be better utilized by the calf will pay for those programs.

 

[Silver]

This area is getting far better at vaccination programs. At all calf sales here the list of contributers also includes their vaccination programs. Those with nothing or "Blackleg" only take less money for their cattle.

I have sat and watched my share of calf sales and have yet to see anyone get paid for a long list of vaccinations. Or for the much sought after unbranded hide.

 

[gcreekrch]

This area is getting far better at vaccination programs. At all calf sales here the list of contributers also includes their vaccination programs. Those with nothing or "Blackleg" only take less money for their cattle.

I have sat and watched my share of calf sales and have yet to see anyone get paid for a long list of vaccinations. Or for the much sought after unbranded hide.

Sit and talk with your buyers Silver. The ones down here do pay attention to the list and they do pay the outfits that cover their bases. I would guess Wayne Parker could teach you a few things.

20 years ago a buyer told me if I wanted really cheap calves to go to a couple different sale barns in Manitoba where very few producers vaccinated. The calves there were considerably cheaper because feedlots had learned to factor in the death loss of calves from those barns.

 

[Silver]

This area is getting far better at vaccination programs. At all calf sales here the list of contributers also includes their vaccination programs. Those with nothing or "Blackleg" only take less money for their cattle.

I have sat and watched my share of calf sales and have yet to see anyone get paid for a long list of vaccinations. Or for the much sought after unbranded hide.

Sit and talk with your buyers Silver. The ones down here do pay attention to the list and they do pay the outfits that cover their bases. I would guess Wayne Parker could teach you a few things.

20 years ago a buyer told me if I wanted really cheap calves to go to a couple different sale barns in Manitoba where very few producers vaccinated. The calves there were considerably cheaper because feedlots had learned to factor in the death loss of calves from those barns.

Wayne Parker has been buying our calves for a great many years, and he's paid top dollar for them. I would bet if you took the time to listen you could learn some things from him yourself.
I've taken the time to watch what happens with calves with the Pfizer Gold and Whole Herd Health calves after being sold.... they go into the same pen as the rest of that buyers calves. And I know for a fact that any buyer worth his salt puts his own inputs into calves right after they come off the truck regardless of what the seller advertised.

 

[gcreekrch]

I have sat and watched my share of calf sales and have yet to see anyone get paid for a long list of vaccinations. Or for the much sought after unbranded hide.

Sit and talk with your buyers Silver. The ones down here do pay attention to the list and they do pay the outfits that cover their bases. I would guess Wayne Parker could teach you a few things.

20 years ago a buyer told me if I wanted really cheap calves to go to a couple different sale barns in Manitoba where very few producers vaccinated. The calves there were considerably cheaper because feedlots had learned to factor in the death loss of calves from those barns.

Wayne Parker has been buying our calves for a great many years, and he's paid top dollar for them. I would bet if you took the time to listen you could learn some things from him yourself.
I've taken the time to watch what happens with calves with the Pfizer Gold and Whole Herd Health calves after being sold.... they go into the same pen as the rest of that buyers calves. And I know for a fact that any buyer worth his salt puts his own inputs into calves right after they come off the truck regardless of what the seller advertised.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I hope what we have been through never hits you. The vaccine gets awful cheap when big, strong calves start dying. Or like a neighbor had 40% open on 700 cows in a BVD outbreak because he thought he was isolated and the RFP school told him he didn't need that expense.

Each to his own.

 

[Silver]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I hope what we have been through never hits you. The vaccine gets awful cheap when big, strong calves start dying. Or like a neighbor had 40% open on 700 cows in a BVD outbreak because he thought he was isolated and the RFP school told him he didn't need that expense.

Each to his own.

I never said we don't vaccinate. All our animals start their vaccination program just as soon as they are selected to be replacements.
All I'm saying is that I haven't seen sellers rewarded for their programs, and I know those fresh bought calves are all treated the same when they get off the truck for good reason.

Like you say, to each their own.

 

[gcreekrch]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I hope what we have been through never hits you. The vaccine gets awful cheap when big, strong calves start dying. Or like a neighbor had 40% open on 700 cows in a BVD outbreak because he thought he was isolated and the RFP school told him he didn't need that expense.

Each to his own.

I never said we don't vaccinate. All our animals start their vaccination program just as soon as they are selected to be replacements.
All I'm saying is that I haven't seen sellers rewarded for their programs, and I know those fresh bought calves are all treated the same when they get off the truck for good reason.

Like you say, to each their own.

Truth to all that but if you think feedlots don't take note of whose calves don't respond to treatment or just simply die, you need to think again. Buyers do get instructed to Not buy "XYZ's" calves for two reasons, health and not performing.

 

[wbvs58]

He apparently hasn't had to deal with PI or naive cattle put into a situation where they are mixed with a vaccinated herd. Or even mixed with others of their non-vaccinated kind. Those that don't die are chronics or poor doers.

I'm getting an inkling why cattle from the SW are discounted so badly as a whole. Maybe I'm mistaken there.

I don't understand why you are saying PI or naieve cattle I would think they are at opposite ends of the spectrum assuming you are talking about pestivirus. Naieve cattle exposed to a PI you would not even know they had pestivirus and recover completely only detrimental if they are early pregnant.

Ken

Pi calves can live a long time. Some die when vaccinated with a live, some just become chronics that recover for a time and then get sick again. Pi calves I understand can come from herds using a killed vaccine. What is the use of spending money if it doesn't work?
Naive calves come from those not using any program at all. Our incoming winter projects are vaccinated with Vista Once and Vision 8S and given a Draxxin at the same time. The naive calves might need to be treated with Resflor about the time the Draxxin wears off. Once. The PI's as said. never seem to get well.
This area is getting far better at vaccination programs. At all calf sales here the list of contributers also includes their vaccination programs. Those with nothing or "Blackleg" only take less money for their cattle.

You seem to be rolling every disease on the planet into one but if you are talking about PI's then I assume you are talking pestivirus if you stick to that subject then maybe we can understand what you are trying to say rather throw all other conditions into your argument trying to bamboozle everyone with your knowledge.

Ken

 

[Bright Raven]

Pi calves can live a long time. Some die when vaccinated with a live, some just become chronics that recover for a time and then get sick again. Pi calves I understand can come from herds using a killed vaccine. What is the use of spending money if it doesn't work?
Naive calves come from those not using any program at all. Our incoming winter projects are vaccinated with Vista Once and Vision 8S and given a Draxxin at the same time. The naive calves might need to be treated with Resflor about the time the Draxxin wears off. Once. The PI's as said. never seem to get well.
This area is getting far better at vaccination programs. At all calf sales here the list of contributers also includes their vaccination programs. Those with nothing or "Blackleg" only take less money for their cattle.

You seem to be rolling every disease on the planet into one but if you are talking about PI's then I assume you are talking pestivirus if you stick to that subject then maybe we can understand what you are trying to say rather throw all other conditions into your argument trying to bamboozle everyone with your knowledge.

Ken

That is what I assume he is talking about. The genus of virus, Pestivirus, that causes Bovine Viral Diarrhea (BVD) and calves that are Persistently Infected (PI). That is when it is most common to see the PI acronym applied. His presentation could be better organized.

 

[Bright Raven]

A vaccination program maybe optional if you are a commercial operation selling into a terminal market such as feeder calves.

Selling bulls and heifers to a buyer who intends to incorporate that animal into his herd is a different circumstance. There is a liability risk that the buyer may make a damage claim against the seller based on the premise that the purchased animal exposed his herd to a disease.

Having an elite vaccination program will be the sellers first defense. I have a stellar vaccination program than I have researched, studied and implemented. I document everything. The flaw might be that a damage claim would attack my program because it is not being implemented by a licensed veterinarian.

More importantly for my market, buyers expect to buy breeding stock that has been properly wormed and vaccinated.