Elk

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I admire your knowledge concerning prescription drugs and how to use them to help cattle and also how you share your knowledge with others. Most of the prescription drugs you talk about were not being produced when I had livestock.
Likely you nor the people you know have ever looked at the bite on your calves. If you Google (domestic calves underbite images), lots of photos of calves with underbite posted by their owners will come up. I looked up a discussion about underbite that was on CattleToday about 4 years ago. A rancher said that some of his calves were born with an underbite and he successfully treated them with a special mineral mixture to make the underdeveloped facial bones grow to normal. No one called him names or said he didn't know what he was talking about or said anything derogatory at all. I don't know what a city forum is and I have never lived in a city, so know little about cities. I don't even like going to cities. Yes, some livestock owners do appreciate knowing about the dangers to their livestock and children from teratogenic pesticides. It is surprising that anyone wouldn't.

Thank you. Yes, I know what an underbite looks like and an overbite. I would KNOW if any one of my calves/cows had one. That is definitely discriminated against as a breed animal. "MOST" underbites or overbites are genetic or deficiencies.
IMHO opinion - your researchers LOOKED for 1 thing, and they found it. Did any of them do DNA sampling LOOKING for a genetic defect??
You come on our threads and blah blah blah about the same info as if none of us care about good management practices - health, nutrition, genetics, grass health, etc. This is a very complex business and yes, it is insulting that you keep taunting about the pesticides/herbicides being harmful to people and animals (wild and domestic). We care. We got your message and we cared BEFORE your message. Your message is too one-sided for anyone to put much credence to it. Show us DNA proof that the problem wasn't genetics. SOME exposure to bad things can be a good thing. You don't find very many farmers get E-Coli - LOL We do get exposure!!!
Have herbicides/pesticides been harmful in the past? I'm sure they have. Are they still? Probably, but I think all farmers are much more consciences of the problem.

 

[Ebenezer]

So all this discussion over and over. I have not read it all, but what is your solution? A total ban on herbicides and pesticides? Would the world be better off or worse off if there were no herbicides and pesticides? Considering everything overall. All the consequences.

Seems to me that we would need to go back to farming methods of about 100 years ago. With current population, that would be a disaster on the environment and starving people. Better solution might be to reduce the world population by about 80%.

I am probably going to regret asking that.

I hope that someone sprays roundup on the deer and buzzards around here. Nobody has told them that their testicles are bad or that they cannot conceive. Now we have tega lizards. And a bear. And all of the other invasive must be coming here to not have testicles and not conceive but still expanding their territory and population. When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn?

 

[simme]

I hope that someone sprays roundup on the deer and buzzards around here. Nobody has told them that their testicles are bad or that they cannot conceive. Now we have tega lizards. And a bear. And all of the other invasive must be coming here to not have testicles and not conceive but still expanding their territory and population. When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn?

We are not far apart in distance or age. In our childhood, rarely did we see any turkeys or deer here. Had no groundhogs, coyotes, or armadillos. Had way more quail and rabbits. The buzzards only ate roadkill and were not aggressive. We got a big recreational lake and an interstate highway about the same time way back then. Started using herbicides not long after. Then the most invasive and dangerous species of all - outsiders moving in for the green acres style of living. I read recently that our little state has the 3rd highest rate of people moving in.

I think all those might be related. Hope we don't start getting them elk in the pastures. Anything that decreases the fertility of the invasive species, man or beast, can't be all bad.

 

[Ebenezer]

We are not far apart in distance or age. In our childhood, rarely did we see any turkeys or deer here. Had no groundhogs, coyotes, or armadillos. Had way more quail and rabbits. The buzzards only ate roadkill and were not aggressive. We got a big recreational lake and an interstate highway about the same time way back then. Started using herbicides not long after. Then the most invasive and dangerous species of all - outsiders moving in for the green acres style of living. I read recently that our little state has the 3rd highest rate of people moving in.

I think all those might be related. Hope we don't start getting them elk in the pastures. Anything that decreases the fertility of the invasive species, man or beast, can't be all bad.

You forgot the wonderful wild hogs! I did too. The most interesting things of the interstates to me was the expansion of barn swallows as they could build under the bridges and move southward. There is documentation that coyotes use railroad tracks for movement. It's not the old cotton growing south anymore.

 

[J Hoy]

So all this discussion over and over. I have not read it all, but what is your solution? A total ban on herbicides and pesticides? Would the world be better off or worse off if there were no herbicides and pesticides? Considering everything overall. All the consequences.

Seems to me that we would need to go back to farming methods of about 100 years ago. With current population, that would be a disaster on the environment and starving people. Better solution might be to reduce the world population by about 80%.

I am probably going to regret asking that.

I just said that there should be a total ban on the three most used top teratogenic pesticides that are reported to be causing drastic declines in invertebrates and vertebrates, all of which humans need for their survival. Those three, imidacloprid, glyphosate and chlorothalonil, are also causing serious health effects on livestock. You are very correct, we desperately need world wide population control, preferably not by nuking everybody and not by starving everyone either. I never once said that there should be a total ban on all pesticides.

I admire your knowledge concerning prescription drugs and how to use them to help cattle and also how you share your knowledge with others. Most of the prescription drugs you talk about were not being produced when I had livestock.
Likely you nor the people you know have ever looked at the bite on your calves. If you Google (domestic calves underbite images), lots of photos of calves with underbite posted by their owners will come up. I looked up a discussion about underbite that was on CattleToday about 4 years ago. A rancher said that some of his calves were born with an underbite and he successfully treated them with a special mineral mixture to make the underdeveloped facial bones grow to normal. No one called him names or said he didn't know what he was talking about or said anything derogatory at all. I don't know what a city forum is and I have never lived in a city, so know little about cities. I don't even like going to cities. Yes, some livestock owners do appreciate knowing about the dangers to their livestock and children from teratogenic pesticides. It is surprising that anyone wouldn't.

Thank you. Yes, I know what an underbite looks like and an overbite. I would KNOW if any one of my calves/cows had one. That is definitely discriminated against as a breed animal. "MOST" underbites or overbites are genetic or deficiencies.
IMHO opinion - your researchers LOOKED for 1 thing, and they found it. Did any of them do DNA sampling LOOKING for a genetic defect??
You come on our threads and blah blah blah about the same info as if none of us care about good management practices - health, nutrition, genetics, grass health, etc. This is a very complex business and yes, it is insulting that you keep taunting about the pesticides/herbicides being harmful to people and animals (wild and domestic). We care. We got your message and we cared BEFORE your message. Your message is too one-sided for anyone to put much credence to it. Show us DNA proof that the problem wasn't genetics. SOME exposure to bad things can be a good thing. You don't find very many farmers get E-Coli - LOL We do get exposure!!!
Have herbicides/pesticides been harmful in the past? I'm sure they have. Are they still? Probably, but I think all farmers are much more consciences of the problem.

We obviously don't need DNA proof that the birth defects and mortality wasn't genetics. I have said numerous times that each spring from 1995, the year after imidacloprid began being used to present, that individuals of many species of mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians began being observed with underbite or overbite and/or the other definitive birth defects that began in 1995. We certainly don't need to do DNA testing on hundreds of species to prove those birth defects are not caused by genetics in all those species of several groups of vertebrates. Any scientist will tell you that and likely most 5th graders could too. If you care what those three top teratogenic pesticides are doing to your livestock and children as well as many species of wildlife, as you say you do, then livestock owners must be asking government officials, and especially the EPA to ban those three teratogenic pesticides - right?

 

[4hfarms]

You obviously do need DNA proof that the birth defects and mortality wasn't genetics. Just because you say it doesn't make it true.
Science isn't what it used to be.

 

[mwj]

When you search for one thing you usually find one thing. If you do not eliminate other possibilities it speaks volumes.

 

[J Hoy]

You forgot the wonderful wild hogs! I did too. The most interesting things of the interstates to me was the expansion of barn swallows as they could build under the bridges and move southward. There is documentation that coyotes use railroad tracks for movement. It's not the old cotton growing south anymore.

If there are lots of Barn Swallows, that is usually seen as a good thing because of all the mosquitoes they eat.

 

[J Hoy]

You obviously do need DNA proof that the birth defects and mortality wasn't genetics. Just because you say it doesn't make it true.
Science isn't what it used to be.

Research scientists and medical books say that if a LARGE NUMBER of mammals species suddenly are born and even greater numbers of birds are hatched with the exact same birth defect at the same time, it has to be environmental, not genetic. Also, a large number of children were born with an underbite in the late 1990s and through the 2000s, then more began being born with an overbite and less with an underbite. At least, that is what the dentists told me when I asked them about children. I wonder if we need to test the DNA of all those children? The male genitalia on humans is affected somewhat differently, not exactly like the genitalia on grazing animals, however it is affected. Guess those children need DNA testing too, right?

 

[wbvs58]

I just said that there should be a total ban on the three most used top teratogenic pesticides that are reported to be causing drastic declines in invertebrates and vertebrates, all of which humans need for their survival. Those three, imidacloprid, glyphosate and chlorothalonil, are also causing serious health effects on livestock. You are very correct, we desperately need world wide population control, preferably not by nuking everybody and not by starving everyone either. I never once said that there should be a total ban on all pesticides.



We obviously don't need DNA proof that the birth defects and mortality wasn't genetics. I have said numerous times that each spring from 1995, the year after imidacloprid began being used to present, that individuals of many species of mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians began being observed with underbite or overbite and/or the other definitive birth defects that began in 1995. We certainly don't need to do DNA testing on hundreds of species to prove those birth defects are not caused by genetics in all those species of several groups of vertebrates. Any scientist will tell you that and likely most 5th graders could too. If you care what those three top teratogenic pesticides are doing to your livestock and children as well as many species of wildlife, as you say you do, then livestock owners must be asking government officials, and especially the EPA to ban those three teratogenic pesticides - right?

Sooo then, DDT wasn't too bad after all, we might need to un ban it.

Ken

 

[Mountaintown Creek Ranch]

What about Aminopyralid ?

 

[simme]

I thought about going chemical free in 2024, but suspect that I would not do well without water.

 

[J Hoy]

We are not far apart in distance or age. In our childhood, rarely did we see any turkeys or deer here. Had no groundhogs, coyotes, or armadillos. Had way more quail and rabbits. The buzzards only ate roadkill and were not aggressive. We got a big recreational lake and an interstate highway about the same time way back then. Started using herbicides not long after. Then the most invasive and dangerous species of all - outsiders moving in for the green acres style of living. I read recently that our little state has the 3rd highest rate of people moving in.

I think all those might be related. Hope we don't start getting them elk in the pastures. Anything that decreases the fertility of the invasive species, man or beast, can't be all bad.

It can be bad if it is affecting lots of animals, although decreasing the fertility of humans would be good.

 

[J Hoy]

Sooo then, DDT wasn't too bad after all, we might need to un ban it.

Ken

Only if you want many bird species to decline even faster than they are now. DDT made the egg shells soft so they broke resulting in no young. It almost killed me when I was 8 years old and my mother sprayed it inside of our house. No thank you on using DDT!

I thought about going chemical free in 2024, but suspect that I would not do well without water.

That is funny, Simme. Obviously, you know some of the chemicals now found in most drinking water.

 

[J Hoy]

When you search for one thing you usually find one thing. If you do not eliminate other possibilities it speaks volumes.

Actually, we considered many things, including genetics, plant toxins, human made chemicals, etc. All the medical books and people consulted ruled out plant toxins, because animals that were not grazing animals were affected. They ruled out genetics, because so many vertebrates of several groups of vertebrates all began having young with the same definitive defects in the same year. The only thing left that would affect the young of so many species in the same year and continue to affect them in years since is human made chemicals according to veterinarians, doctors, researchers and other scientists. Many scientists have been working on what the imidacloprid, glyphosate and chlorothalonil do to living things for years now. Why do you think that researchers stated that those three pesticides are 3 of the top 6 teratogenic pesticides used. The US Ag Department tells how much of those are used. It is common knowledge that imidacloprid is the most used insecticide and glyphosate is the most used herbicide.

 

[J Hoy]

What about Aminopyralid ?

From what I have been able to fine after hearing about Milestone and Grazon (Aminopyralid) a couple of years ago, they have not been found to be teratogenic or cancer causing. Some sensitive individuals in the studies of various animals did have a reaction to the deliberate exposure by ingestion, but not many died. I need to look those herbicides up again and see if anything new has been found. As with all chemicals, it is best not to let them get into the water.

 

[puzzled in oregon]

DDT was a great help eliminating fleas. We lived un a little old house, in
a narrow canyon that was very cold and damp in the winter. Occasionally we would
have a flea infestation.
My parents would just sprayed with DDT. Inside and outside, shoot they even pulled
the sheets back and sprayed our beds. No more fleas.

 

[puzzled in oregon]

I thought about going chemical free in 2024, but suspect that I would not do well without water.

Lack of water or withdrawal from the chemicals ?

 

[Mountaintown Creek Ranch]

From what I have been able to fine after hearing about Milestone and Grazon (Aminopyralid) a couple of years ago, they have not been found to be teratogenic or cancer causing. Some sensitive individuals in the studies of various animals did have a reaction to the deliberate exposure by ingestion, but not many died. I need to look those herbicides up again and see if anything new has been found. As with all chemicals, it is best not to let them get into the water.

DuraCor is what we started using a few years ago.

 

[simme]

Lack of water or withdrawal from the chemicals ?

Water is a chemical and an essential one. Withdrawal from water is pretty tough.