Discounts vs premiums

[Lee VanRoss]

Certified Angus Beef® brand | 10 Specifications

Our 10 Specifications for Quality

www.certifiedangusbeef.com

To earn the Certified Angus Beef ® brand name, cattle must first be Angus-influenced, with a predominantly solid black coat. Then, beef must pass our 10 quality standards:

Somebody, tell me again, what is the genetic difference between a Black Angus and a Red Angus, other than the taste of the meat?

 

[Warren Allison]

Somebody, tell me again, what is the genetic difference between a Black Angus and a Red Angus, other than the taste of the meat?

Just the gene for coat color

 

[Ky hills]

It is more like the Continental breeds that have been "bred up" with Angus to turn them black that have lost their identity.

In a sense yes, a lot of breeds have lost their identity, along with Angus, all of the black hided breeds are just a bunch of commercial black cattle once you get away from specifically being able to identify them by their respective registries.
The dna thing with CAB will likely never happen. There is already an Angus Source program from the AAA so something like that could easily be implemented if selling Angus bulls and identifying Angus genetics in CAB destined calves.
From what I understand there is more demand for the CAB product than actual source verified Angus calves can fulfill, so logically speaking you're not going to take steps to loose market share and run the risk of exposing the reality that a significant number of those calves are half or less, and maybe even very little if any Angus.
As for the prices of cattle without the various Angus branded products, the reality that nobody is talking about is that every thing is being degraded price wise because of imports. Imports are the reason our prices are lower. If we had a program like COOL where we could actually know where our beef is coming from like other products then that would help create a USA specific market across the board. That is the reason I support CAB is that it is an actual product of USA.

 

[WFfarm]

The consumer doesn't realize CAB is "certified" but not "guaranteed".

 

[Rmc]

Somebody, tell me again, what is the genetic difference between a Black Angus and a Red Angus,

Don't you know that the shape of the pigment within the hair shaft and skin, which alters the way the light reflects off it changes the quality and taste of the meat.

 

[mwj]

CAB gives a better than average chance of buying good beef. Why people harp on only the color part of the program is beyond me.

Anything that keeps the public buying beef is good for us all. Look at the price range in the sale report posted above. I will guarantee those buyers figured there was not much chance of those lower end calves making CAB.

If your cattle constantly meet the 9 quality aspects,your calves will top the market. Good and poor cattle come in all colors.

 

[alacowman1]

Somebody, tell me again, what is the genetic difference between a Black Angus and a Red Angus, other than the taste of the meat?

I don't think the reds have been as bastardized as the blacks have..

 

[Rmc]

I don't think the reds have been as bastardized as the blacks have..

No but they didn't go from belt buckle sized to the size they are today without some out side genetics.
If you want to raise "pure angus" the closest you can get is the Aberdeen angus. But don't see to many of the black hide only folks advocating them.

My opinion is that there are only two types of cattle registry's. Those that admit they have genetics from out side the registry and those that don't admit it.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

The grading system promotes quality. The CAB program promotes color at the expense of quality.

You are wrong. All the CAB program does is CERTIFY the qualifying animal meets their specs.....which includes quality minimum. Many Angus carcasses do not get stamped CAB. Therefore, that carcass does not get the CAB premium.
My BLACK PB Simmental qualify for CAB under the LIVE requirement. Then, they pull the hide to determine if they meet all the carcass qualifications.
Japan was the one of the main increase for buyers wanting black hided cattle. They would only buy black hided cattle.
No matter what the reason, black hide rings the bell for feeders. We can bit$h all we want, it's here FOR NOW.
AI has not hurt the beef industry. On the contrary, it is the biggest tool for improvement. Yes, the Angus had Curly Calf. They have half a dozen genetic defects in their tool box. AI did not cause it, nor is it the only reason the genetic defects showed up. They've been around for long time. Just finally became more aware thru AI. AI is GOOD.
BREEDERS are the problem. They knew their were problems and hid it.

 

[Ky hills]

You are wrong. All the CAB program does is CERTIFY the qualifying animal meets their specs.....which includes quality minimum. Many Angus carcasses do not get stamped CAB. Therefore, that carcass does not get the CAB premium.
My BLACK PB Simmental qualify for CAB under the LIVE requirement. Then, they pull the hide to determine if they meet all the carcass qualifications.
Japan was the one of the main increase for buyers wanting black hided cattle. They would only buy black hided cattle.
No matter what the reason, black hide rings the bell for feeders. We can bit$h all we want, it's here FOR NOW.
AI has not hurt the beef industry. On the contrary, it is the biggest tool for improvement. Yes, the Angus had Curly Calf. They have half a dozen genetic defects in their tool box. AI did not cause it, nor is it the only reason the genetic defects showed up. They've been around for long time. Just finally became more aware thru AI. AI is GOOD.
BREEDERS are the problem. They knew their were problems and hid it.

I have a bit of a different opinion on AI, you are correct in that it can help herd improvement, but it can also be a detriment if selection isn't based on the same fundamentals that you would choose a walking herd sire on.
Your experience within Simmentals is probably different, than what is going on with Angus. The EPD craze defines mainstream Angus bulls. The big AI companies all clamor to bri g in the latest and greatest EPD wonder on paper. All the well intentioned breeders down the chain sample those bulls. Probably not one in 100 breeders ever actually look at those bulls and thus they just become multipliers of somebody else's cattle. Before that calf crop hits production of its own, then another batch of EPD wonders is being promoted and the cycle continues.
I agree AI did not cause the defects but by widespread use of those genetics the effects were pretty far reaching.
Years ago I utilized AI in my registered Charolais and can honestly say that with most of the bulls used the calves were better than by my walking herd bulls.
Did not have the same experience within my registered Angus.
We thought we had a bull by an AI bull
The AI tech saw him and commented how much more powerful he was than the other calves. When we sent in DNA sample at registration he came back a match to our bull. I found Angus to be a mixed bag both with AI and herd bulls.

 

[Travlr]

CAB gives a better than average chance of buying good beef. Why people harp on only the color part of the program is beyond me.

Anything that keeps the public buying beef is good for us all. Look at the price range in the sale report posted above. I will guarantee those buyers figured there was not much chance of those lower end calves making CAB.

If your cattle constantly meet the 9 quality aspects,your calves will top the market. Good and poor cattle come in all colors.

Which is why all animals of similar quality should be getting the same prices regardless of color.

 

[alacowman1]

No but they didn't go from belt buckle sized to the size they are today without some out side genetics.

Hence the bastardized.I don't believe your comprehension absorption is absortioning

 

[Travlr]

You are wrong. All the CAB program does is CERTIFY the qualifying animal meets their specs.....which includes quality minimum. Many Angus carcasses do not get stamped CAB. Therefore, that carcass does not get the CAB premium.
My BLACK PB Simmental qualify for CAB under the LIVE requirement. Then, they pull the hide to determine if they meet all the carcass qualifications.
Japan was the one of the main increase for buyers wanting black hided cattle. They would only buy black hided cattle.
No matter what the reason, black hide rings the bell for feeders. We can bit$h all we want, it's here FOR NOW.
AI has not hurt the beef industry. On the contrary, it is the biggest tool for improvement. Yes, the Angus had Curly Calf. They have half a dozen genetic defects in their tool box. AI did not cause it, nor is it the only reason the genetic defects showed up. They've been around for long time. Just finally became more aware thru AI. AI is GOOD.
BREEDERS are the problem. They knew their were problems and hid it.

Until red and white cattle are stamped with the CAB certification, based on their carcass quality and not the color of their hair, I'll stand by my opinion.

AI has the potential for great improvement but it can be misused. Inbreeding and line breeding done by people that aren't understanding of the consequences and realities, and willing to take questionable risks, have created the genetic anomalies that we all know about. But the fact that any given bull has the potential to cover a significant percentage of cows in any given year and can do it for decades speaks to the potential dangers.

Ai used properly and with care is not the issue. Human error is, just like with any tool we misuse.

 

[Rmc]

Hence the bastardized.I don't believe your comprehension absorption is absortioning

So are you claiming that the reds are still belt buckle sized?
Someone correct me if I am wrong but aren't todays red and black angus both relatively the same size. If so that means both have been bastardized roughly the same percentage of other breeds size genetics to get the huge change in size from belt buckle size the breed was historically. And I the one not comprehending?

 

[alacowman1]

So are you claiming that the reds are still belt buckle sized?
Someone correct me if I am wrong but aren't todays red and black angus both relatively the same size. If so that means both have been bastardized roughly the same percentage of other breeds size genetics to get the huge change in size from belt buckle size the breed was historically. And I the one not comprehending?

Do you have any pictures of belt buckle reds? The belt buckle size was a faze the breeders took them through theirselves in 60+ years ago..then they went through the elephant frame in the 80s but it was the blacks that got bred in every direction

 

[Ebenezer]

I don't think the reds have been as bastardized as the blacks have..

I thought that they had some % cattle or appendix or something

 

[alacowman1]

even The Herefords were downsized back then

 

[Rmc]

AI has the potential for great improvement but it can be misused. Inbreeding and line breeding done by people that aren't understanding of the consequences and realities, and willing to take questionable risks, have created the genetic anomalies that we all know about. But the fact that any given bull has the potential to cover a significant percentage of cows in any given year and can do it for decades speaks to the potential dangers.

Ai used properly and with care is not the issue. Human error is, just like with any tool we misuse.

Linebreeding and inbreeding when done correctly are the solution not the problem in identifying and eliminating undesired genes from wide spread distribution in the gene pool.
The biggest problem is the crazy high over use by people jumping on the band wagon of using the latest "curve bender" genetics without the proper line breeding /inbreeding to identify and the removal of the undesirable gene mutations that are almost always accompanied by the desired gene mutation.
The basic science of genetics says that almost always when a genetic mutation occurs it is not a single gene mutation,but is a multiple gene mutation that contains both highly desirable mutations as well as undesirable lethal /semi lethal gene mutations
A perfect example of this is the Holstein bull "Pawnee Farm Arlinda Chief "
It is estimated that his single genetic lethal mutation has cost the dairy industry over 500,000 spontaneous abortions resulting in over $420 million in losses . And most now as well as in the past don't give 2 about it . In fact estimates say that at least 14 percent of all Holsteins are his descendants.
How and why is that possible?
Because he was a "curve bender bull "
It is also estimated that his genetics are responsible for over $30 billion in increased milk production.
It is a scientific fact that if you use outlier genetics (curve bender) in mating selection you increase the probability of introducing undesirable lethal,semi lethal genetic mutations in the offspring by a huge percentage.it is almost inevitable that a "curve bender" mutation will also be accompanied by a undesirable lethal/semi lethal mutation as well.
Sometimes this to traits can be separated and the undesirable traits from the desired traits. But sometimes the two genetic mutations are so close to each other on the genome, and will not sort independently of each other, it is virtually impossible to naturally separate the two .

 

[Rmc]

Do you have any pictures of belt buckle reds? The belt buckle size was a faze the breeders took them through theirselves in 60+ years ago..then they went through the elephant frame in the 80s but it was the blacks that got bred in every direction

You better review your cattle history. The standard size of most cattle for hundreds of years ,INClUDING ANGUS and their predecessors were "belt buckle " sized . The average size was at the higher end of "mini" cattle to day with the high end being "heritage" size.

 

[Rmc]

Here is some history on the angus breed

Red Angus

The Red Angus breed has the exact same origins of the Aberdeen Angus. Originally it was brought in by the Vikings from Europe and introduced to England and Scotland, these cattle were small, dun-colou

www.thebeefsite.com

It is also my understanding that the red angus association is one of those that acknowledges out side genetics.
They allow percentage animal's registered,as well as allowing registration of cattle as long as their parents are registered from many other associations, including AAA, certain Aberdeen Angus associations, and at least one Brangus association.