Diesels and chips

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Tod Dague

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Does anyone on here not run a chip on their diesel? I have an '01 Dodge that was averaging 18 mpg before the chip and is now averaging 22 mpg. I bought the EZ chip about 3 months ago for $300 from someone who had just sold their '01. I had hoped to get a gain of 2 mpg but ended up with 4. :shock: I couldn't be happier! Well I guess if I were gaining 5. 8)
 
Dang. I'd be tickled with that too. An extra 4 mpg can save a lot of green in a hurry. I've got an 02 Dodge, and aint got a chip on it. I've been lookin around at some of the different chips and been goin back and forth about whether to get one or not. With the price of diesel, a 2-4 mpg increase sure sounds good. The Cummins has all the power I need, but a little extra power sure wouldn't hurt nothin either. What kind of torque and horse power gains does that give you?
 
Tod, was that hand calculated or by the mileage computer? If you're going by the mileage computer, the EZ plays with fueling after the computer takes its reads, and its no longer close to accurate. Having said that, I have seen EZ's give an honest hand calculated 5 mpg gain at highway speeds, although its rare (I think with all the trucks we did, we saw this twice). Usually its closer to 2 mpg.

Rod
 
DiamondSCattleCo":11r05ui5 said:
Tod, was that hand calculated or by the mileage computer? If you're going by the mileage computer, the EZ plays with fueling after the computer takes its reads, and its no longer close to accurate. Having said that, I have seen EZ's give an honest hand calculated 5 mpg gain at highway speeds, although its rare (I think with all the trucks we did, we saw this twice). Usually its closer to 2 mpg.

Rod
Thanks for the info. It was computer calculated. I'll get a hand calculation.
 
tnbeef":3atbnwg1 said:
Dang. I'd be tickled with that too. An extra 4 mpg can save a lot of green in a hurry. I've got an 02 Dodge, and aint got a chip on it. I've been lookin around at some of the different chips and been goin back and forth about whether to get one or not. With the price of diesel, a 2-4 mpg increase sure sounds good. The Cummins has all the power I need, but a little extra power sure wouldn't hurt nothin either. What kind of torque and horse power gains does that give you?
I have ours on the low setting and it is supposed to give 60 hp and 100+ ft/lb torque.
 
Tod, that setting is simply an 'aggression' setting. In other words, it sets when the fuel comes on. On the lowest setting, you may actually be seeing less low RPM fuel than stock. I'd move it to the mid setting at least. It won't affect top side HP or torque, but it will change when the box starts fueling. If you have an automatic, leave it where it is for maximum torque converter life.

Rod
 
I have an automatic. I'm not understanding this line "On the lowest setting, you may actually be seeing less low RPM fuel than stock."
 
What the Edge does on 1998 - 2002 trucks is reads the engine RPM and current boost levels to determine what injector pulse duration and timing should be set to. That pin setting determines what boost level the Edge box begins to modify injector pulse width. The Edge box does not issue a raw injector pulse width command though, but rather issues a percentage modification of the stock computer pulse width. Keep this in mind.

However, the Edge box will be modifying timing at off-idle, irregardless of the aggression setting. When you advance timing on a diesel, you _generally_ make more power, at least within the range offered by the Edge box. Since you're making more power, you can pull your foot off the throttle. The stock computer reads this, and adjusts the injector pulse width duration down. Less fuel than stock. Whats the problem you say? At these low RPMs, the stock computer is a little too aggressive at pulling fuel off, so many trucks end up with a flat spot on the torque curve. You punch the throttle and it takes a couple seconds to really start winding up.

Not every truck is the same, since the stock sensors have a 10% error margin on them. Some trucks work just fine on the low aggression settings, others are real dogs. Play with yours and see where you like it the best and where you get your best mileage for your driving style. If you tend to get on the throttle hard alot, but bought the box primarily for mileage, keep the aggression low. You soft pedal, turn the aggression up a bit. You'll actually see better mileage since the truck won't be working as hard to pull itself or a load.

Rod
 
DiamondSCattleCo":19y46942 said:
What the Edge does on 1998 - 2002 trucks is reads the engine RPM and current boost levels to determine what injector pulse duration and timing should be set to. That pin setting determines what boost level the Edge box begins to modify injector pulse width. The Edge box does not issue a raw injector pulse width command though, but rather issues a percentage modification of the stock computer pulse width. Keep this in mind.

However, the Edge box will be modifying timing at off-idle, irregardless of the aggression setting. When you advance timing on a diesel, you _generally_ make more power, at least within the range offered by the Edge box. Since you're making more power, you can pull your foot off the throttle. The stock computer reads this, and adjusts the injector pulse width duration down. Less fuel than stock. Whats the problem you say? At these low RPMs, the stock computer is a little too aggressive at pulling fuel off, so many trucks end up with a flat spot on the torque curve. You punch the throttle and it takes a couple seconds to really start winding up.

Not every truck is the same, since the stock sensors have a 10% error margin on them. Some trucks work just fine on the low aggression settings, others are real dogs. Play with yours and see where you like it the best and where you get your best mileage for your driving style. If you tend to get on the throttle hard alot, but bought the box primarily for mileage, keep the aggression low. You soft pedal, turn the aggression up a bit. You'll actually see better mileage since the truck won't be working as hard to pull itself or a load.

Rod
Thanks, I'll try the second level. I typically am not in to big of a hurry. ;-)
 
Ok, I've got a few more minutes here.

To make power/improve mileage with an add-on box can only be accomplished in one of 3 ways:

1) advance timing. This is the absolute best way to gain mileage.
2) increase or decrease injector pulse duration. Difficult to gain mileage with this style of power increase, except that you can modify your driving style to use the additional bottom side power. If you combine pulse duration changes with timing changes you can make very good gains through improved injection efficiency.
3) increase or decrease injection pressure (only on common rail trucks, in other words, Duramax, Ford 6.0L, 03+ Dodge Cummins). Difficult to gain mileage with this style of power increase, except that you can modify your driving style to use the additional bottom side power.

Current light truck programming is pretty pathetic as its geared more for particulate emissions control than it is for power or mileage. The nice thing about a diesel is that as a general rule of thumb, if you boost power, you will get a mileage increase _as long as you keep your foot out of the fuel_. So virtually every power module, if you "drive at 55", will give you some kind of mileage boost. This is NOT a guarantee though, as every manufacturer uses the same sensors built by the same company with the exact same 10% tolerance, so you will get some trucks who will not gain mileage with the addition of a chip.

Now onto the Workhorse's "infomercial". OMG. I'd hoped this style of advertising had left the diesel performance world, but I guess it hadn't.

First, I won't say whether or not the Workhorse will add power or economy. I suspect it can do both, but certainly not any more power or any more mileage than any other add-on box. There is only so much you can do with an add-on box. To gain further power or mileage requires changing injectors, replacing cams, head work, reprogramming ECMs and changing turbos.

I noticed down at the bottom of the page that the Workhorse is a simple fuel pressure module. In other words, all it does add (or remove) rail fuel pressure. There are no plug-ins to the injectors so it can't change injector duration or timing, and there are no plugs for the cam or crank sensors so it can't even READ timing. All there is is a fuel pressure plug. So all it can do is read current fuel pressure, compare to a previous reading to see if its climbing or falling (called delta pressure) and decide to add more fuel or take more away.

So with that mind, there is NO way that they can achieve "improved combustion efficiency". Not without timing. Absolutely no possible way.

And there is NO way to achieve 500F reductions in EGTs, not that you'd ever want to. Diesel fuel is ignited by heat. The trick to efficient power production is keeping cylinder heat high enough to keep the fuel igniting, while not generating so much heat to break down the rest of the engine components. The ideal box on 03 Dodges keeps EGTs at a steady 1250F - 1300F at WOT. The 6.0L Ford, Duramax, and pre-03 Dodges preferred heat in the range of 1150F - 1200F.

6 MPG gains from a fuel pressure box are also impossible, except on the mileage computer. But once you install the pressure box, the mileage computer is so far out of whack that you never know for sure what the proper reading is.

Since it is a fuel pressure module, the price at $695 is too high, not to mention that you'd still want to put a pyro and boost gauge on anyway. Any performance manfacturer that recommends doing performance uprates without gauging shouldn't be in business.

I'm sure there are more holes, but those were the most glaring. Quite frankly, even if the box does add power, I'd stay a long way away from it. I get nervous when I see over-hyped testimonials, and long diatribes with no real information.

Rod
 
wow..diamond s is one of the few actual knowledgeable people in know talking diesel stuff. lotta useless hype out there. workhorse is one of em. fueling box the increasesmileage is stretchin it id guess.
i currently run an 02 ran 4x4 cummins with edge drag comp box,275 injectors,hp inj pump,cold air induction thru the fender cowling,and an aftermarket holley fuel system.
he nails it as far as anything youre looking to do. a pyrometer is a must as is a low fuel press warnin system (dodges mostly). i have full autometer instruments.
an edge ez box or asimilar unit(quadzilla is good also) are non on the fly adj boxes. usually 60-90-120 hp gains. around 30 or so ftlbs torque per. theyre plug and play and relly easy to install. around 400 bucks and wont ruin the engine if ya dont go with the guages..but i would anyways.specially if u tow
 
denoginnizer":2p6pwfc4 said:
Can you damage your engine using these chips and pulling heavy loads?

This is a tough question to answer. You can damage your engine/powertrain FASTER with power uprates and towing, if you don't pay attention to what you're doing. However, you put a pyrometer/boost/tranny temp gauge (automatics)/fuel pressure gauge (Dodge/Duramax) gauge cluster in to monitor the situation as a starting point. Then you have to uprate other components to suit your selected power level. Mild uprates, like the Edge EZ, really don't need anything extra when pulling as long as you pay attention to the gauges and drive properly (don't dump the clutch, don't power shift, etc etc). Getting crazy with power will require new clutches, air systems, turbos, head work, etc etc.

I've got customers who regularly use their 500 pony trucks everyday for work and don't have any breakdown issues. Due to the selection of high end components, they actually have fewer issues than those running stock trucks. As an example, my 2001 C&C was sitting at right around 500 HP, regularly towed 30K+ loads (just the trailer and load), raced, off-roaded, and I never broke down once in over 125,000 K+. One of my best customers who had the second highest HP straight diesel truck in NA (648HP verified) used his truck in his concrete company. On Monday, he'd load his 4000 lb work box in the bed and head out to the jobsite. Come Friday, he'd unload it and go sled pulling or racing. In the 4 years he's been running at 600 HP+, he's had to replace one automatic.

Rod
 
Dad has a Bully Dog Power Pup on his '03 Dodge and I have an Edge Evoulution on my '99 Powerstroke. Couldn't behappier with the results.
 
It's a 2001 dodge 2500. Apparently I've run my mouth too much about my truck. My transmission started acting up. Time for a rebuild. :roll:
 
thats the way it goes. start tuning it up and the auto will really cry. just had mine rebuilt.
just a warning to ya to not get sucked into the huge hype about disel trannys. theyll sell ya a 5-7 grand unit thats only as good as anybody else that knows about trans. find a good rebuilder that maybe does racecar stuff. keep a tight converter and dont kid anyone about how yer gonna use it. tell em up front yer gonna increase the torque and hp and youll get a decent one. i spent around 2500 instead of 6500 and got a full race trans and a triple disc converter. lots of hype around somethin not really that hard to make tuff enough.
 
dieselbeef":1rev2dds said:
thats the way it goes. start tuning it up and the auto will really cry. just had mine rebuilt.
just a warning to ya to not get sucked into the huge hype about disel trannys. theyll sell ya a 5-7 grand unit thats only as good as anybody else that knows about trans. find a good rebuilder that maybe does racecar stuff. keep a tight converter and dont kid anyone about how yer gonna use it. tell em up front yer gonna increase the torque and hp and youll get a decent one. i spent around 2500 instead of 6500 and got a full race trans and a triple disc converter. lots of hype around somethin not really that hard to make tuff enough.
I'm looking at $1700 with a life time warranty. Don't plan on doing any racing or bouncing around in the mud. ;-)
 

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