Confederate Flag BAN

[3MR]

Yes, as slick said the U.S. A never recognized the CSA as an independent country, further they went to great lengths to prevent other countries from recognizing it as such. If it has been recognized as an independent country say England for instance, the CSA would have been able to negotiate its own treaties with the country and take out loans, something the U.S.A for good reasons wanted to prevent.

Also, here is a question that the people who support he idea that the war as all about slavery can never answer. If the war was about slavery and that is why and the major or only reason the South chose to leave.

1. Why didn't Lincoln free the slaves at the start of the war instead of towards the end?

2. Why did the Emancipation Proclamation only free the slaves in "Southern Sates Under Rebellion"? Why didn't he free all slaves in all states? Why didn't he just make it illegal in the entire U.S.A.?

3. Why was the emancipation proclamation issued twice? Once on Sept 22, 1862 with the caveat that if the South did not end its rebellion by Jan 1st, 1863 it would go into effect.

http://www.civilwar.org/education/histo ... facts.html

4. Why did Lincoln say his goal was to preserve the union regardless of doing so included ending slavery?

http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lin ... reeley.htm


5. Why did Lincoln say in a letter dated Oct 18, 1858.

"I do not perceive how I can express myself, more plainly, than I have done in the foregoing extracts. In four of them I have expressly disclaimed all intention to bring about social and political equality between the white and black races, and, in all the rest, I have done the same thing by clear implication."

"I say that we must not interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists, because the constitution forbids it, and the general welfare does not require us to do so.

And in a speech on April 11, 1855 he advocating giving equality not to all black men, but only to those who had served the Union.

"It is also unsatisfactory to some that the elective franchise is not given to the colored man. I would myself prefer that it were now conferred on the very intelligent, and on those who serve our cause as soldiers."

Which is indecently an offer also made by the confederacy toward the end of the war when they were short of money and manpower.

http://www.nps.gov/liho/historyculture/slavery.htm

I always find it interesting, much as in politics today, opposing sides are always quick to ignore the oppositions legitimate points in its zeal to point out the negative aspects and vilify them.

 

[Caustic Burno]

What most don't get this is about Southern Cultural Cleanseing.
It has less to do with the flag and more to do with being in lock step with the PC program.
The movement can't control or enslave the masses as long as we cling to God and our gun's and heritage.

 

[TexasBred]

What most don't get this is about Southern Cultural Cleanseing.
It has less to do with the flag and more to do with being in lock step with the PC program.
The movement can't control or enslave the masses as long as we cling to God and our gun's and heritage.

CB less than a week ago you proclaimed yourself as the Patriarch of your place. I'll paraphrase it but you basically said "When my kids and grandkids show up they have to say yessir and no sir...they ahve to do this, that etc.. ...it's my way or the highway. Now where does that leave YOU and freedom of speech. What if one of those children said "NO" to you. What is the others took side with the one child that stood up to you and demanded their rights?? So much for their "rights".

The confederacy lost the war ( I know some of you die hards disagree) and would have lost regardless of what any one general may or may not have done, or anyone else did had they fought for 10 more years. We were down to sending nursing home eligible old men and kids who had hardly reached puberty to try and be soldiers. Robert E. Lee was not Jesus Christ and Stonewall Jackson was not Moses. Read some history books written by people with some credentials and with no reason to skew the picture one way or the other.

 

[Caustic Burno]

What most don't get this is about Southern Cultural Cleanseing.
It has less to do with the flag and more to do with being in lock step with the PC program.
The movement can't control or enslave the masses as long as we cling to God and our gun's and heritage.

CB less than a week ago you proclaimed yourself as the Patriarch of your place. I'll paraphrase it but you basically said "When my kids and grandkids show up they have to say yessir and no sir...they ahve to do this, that etc.. ...it's my way or the highway. Now where does that leave YOU and freedom of speech. What if one of those children said "NO" to you. What is the others took side with the one child that stood up to you and demanded their rights?? So much for their "rights".

The confederacy lost the war ( I know some of you die hards disagree) and would have lost regardless of what any one general may or may not have done, or anyone else did had they fought for 10 more years. We were down to sending nursing home eligible old men and kids who had hardly reached puberty to try and be soldiers. Robert E. Lee was not Jesus Christ and Stonewall Jackson was not Moses. Read some history books written by people with some credentials and with no reason to skew the picture one way or the other.

There is a big difference in one of my kid's saying no in my house.
See TB this is where you confuse family and government. Another concept you seem to have trouble with is a different view on an issue. You have the right to your opinion no matter how wrong anyone think's it is, you just have a problem when it doesn't mesh with your thinking.
The government is of the people and all the people just not the PC correct people.
TB you have the right to belive what ever you want at your house just like I have the right at mine.
I will defend your right to say what ever you like on the court house square even if I disagree.
This is a concept you can't seem to grasp.
See TB if you want to march around the court house with a Nazi flag I will defend your right to do it no matter how much it disgust me. You have a right to run it up a pole in your yard and again I will defend that right.
Now if you want to bring it on my property I am going to introduce you to another set of right's.
This is what a little document pened called the Bill of Right's is all about.

See TB I adhere to our 3rd President's view of the goverment and it's power's.
When Thomas Jefferson was elected as the third president of the Independent but United States of America, he did everything within his powers to destroy the Federalist government in order that the central of federal government should only have enough power to unite the states in order to provide for the common good. In this manner, he believed that the centralized federal government should only have what limited power was necessary in order to provide a central position that would be favorable to all of the Individual but United States of America. (See his Tenth Amendment in the Bill of Rights)

" ... the Federal Judiciary; an irresponsible body (for impeachment is scarcely a scarecrow), working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless step like a thief, over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall be usurped from the States, and the government of all be consolidated into one.

When all government... in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated."

- Thomas Jefferson (1821)

 

[larryshoat]

What most don't get this is about Southern Cultural Cleanseing.
It has less to do with the flag and more to do with being in lock step with the PC program.
The movement can't control or enslave the masses as long as we cling to God and our gun's and heritage.

You are 100% correct. That crowd that's taken over now don't give a crap about the Confederate flag ( or for that matter the American flag, at some point it too will become an impediment to their mind control). All just one more step, just pushing the envelope a little further. Anybody that stands for anything is a threat to them.

Larry

 

[Caustic Burno]

TB you talk about history it is evident you do not understand the founding principle's of the Republic.
Lincoln destoyed the Republic and created an empire
Southern States could hardly be defined as "domestic enemies". They did not want to take over, or over throw, the Federal Government, they just wanted to leave it big difference. Lincoln refused to let them leave and attacked .
"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation... to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.'" ~ Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to W. Crawford, June 20, 1816 "To coerce the States is one of the maddest projects that was ever devised....

"In Saving the Union, I have destroyed the Republic, before me have I the Confederacy wich I loathe, but behind me have I the bankers wich I fear" Abraham Lincoln
Even Lincoln understood he was destroying our Republic.
We have been on a downhill slide ever since losing more of our Constitutional Right's with each passing decade.

The principles that founded us on one hand can't be wrong on the other if they seperate us.
The irony here is the CSA was using the founding principles of our country for seperation.
The very thing you loathe is what made us a Confederation of States to be called the United States.
Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.
Our first Constitution and we did have two.

None of this would have come to pass had the Federal Government stuck to the constitution.

 

[TexasBred]

There is a big difference in one of my kid's saying no in my house.
See TB this is where you confuse family and government. NO IT IS ABOUT INDIVIDUAL FREEDOMS, WHAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IS THAT YOU ACTUALLY DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO NOT LET YOU CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN EXERCISE SO CALLED "FREE SPEECH' WHILE AT YOUR HOUSE. We/they have the right but as I continually say, you do not have to give them the platform to exercise that right (your property and home). Another concept you seem to have trouble with is a different view on an issue. You have the right to your opinion no matter how wrong anyone think's it is, you just have a problem when it doesn't mesh with your thinking. CB just like you I appreciate and honor your right to disagree with anything I say. You seem to think disagreement offends me when it is exactly the opposite. I thrive on discussing different views. Even disagree at times just to see what comes next :mrgreen:
The government is of the people and all the people just not the PC correct people.
TB you have the right to belive what ever you want at your house just like I have the right at mine.
I will defend your right to say what ever you like on the court house square even if I disagree.
This is a concept you can't seem to grasp.
See TB if you want to march around the court house with a Nazi flag I will defend your right to do it no matter how much it disgust me. You have a right to run it up a pole in your yard and again I will defend that right.
Now if you want to bring it on my property I am going to introduce you to another set of right's.
This is what a little document pened called the Bill of Right's is all about.

See TB I adhere to our 3rd President's view of the goverment and it's power's.
When Thomas Jefferson was elected as the third president of the Independent but United States of America, he did everything within his powers to destroy the Federalist government in order that the central of federal government should only have enough power to unite the states in order to provide for the common good. In this manner, he believed that the centralized federal government should only have what limited power was necessary in order to provide a central position that would be favorable to all of the Individual but United States of America. (See his Tenth Amendment in the Bill of Rights)

" ... the Federal Judiciary; an irresponsible body (for impeachment is scarcely a scarecrow), working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless step like a thief, over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall be usurped from the States, and the government of all be consolidated into one.

When all government... in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated."

- Thomas Jefferson (1821)

And what did Lincoln contribute??

He saved the Federal Union and Constitution in his time and bequeathed to succeeding generations a deep understanding that this Union, the United States of America, cannot be constitutionally dissolved by a minority of people or states for their own selfish purposes.

Lincoln put in motion the process whereby slavery was ended in the United States by the 13thAmendment to the Constitution. (The Emancipation Proclamation DID NOT free the slaves)

He rededicated America and its people to the founding principles of the nation, expressed in the Declaration of Independence.

By saving the Union, Lincoln also saved for his generation, and for subsequent generations of Americans, the nation's founding principles of liberty, equality, and government by consent of the people.

Finally, Abraham Lincoln consistently demonstrated exemplary civic character and responsible citizenship on behalf of the public good. This kind of good civic behavior is necessary for the survival and prosperity of a constitutional democratic republic, such as the United States of America.

We Americans continue to honor the memory of Abraham Lincoln because his legacy has been indispensable to the preservation of America's founding principles and this legacy has inspired every generation of Americans, from his time to the present, to bring these principles more fully and fairly into the lives of everyone.

Now we can disagree til he77 freezes over but I do believe that I am the realist here CB but I do respect your opinions. ;-)

 

[greybeard]

The Declaration is NOT what we base our country's direction upon--we, like almost every civilized nation, base it on a constitution.
The Declaration has no basis in fact nor any standing other than a proclamation designed for a specific time and set of circumstances.

 

[melking]

Banning something is not going to change the past. It all depends on how you look at the flag. For me, the War of Northern Aggression was a sad pivotal point in our history. Brother fighting against brother. Families broken apart. It wasn't all about abolishing slavery (which needed to be done).

Top Five Causes of the Civil War:

http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civilwarmenu/a/cause_civil_war.htm

Thanks Chippie. I had not seen it put in such understandable terms before.

 

[TexasBred]

The Declaration is NOT what we base our country's direction upon--we, like almost every civilized nation, base it on a constitution.
The Declaration has no basis in fact nor any standing other than a proclamation designed for a specific time and set of circumstances.

I believe we all understand that the "Declaration" to directed at King George but it is also the "most quoted" in discussions on here as well GB.

From the Heritage Foundation a very conservative "think tank".

Lincoln was deeply committed to the framework of limited government set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. He stated that he "never had a feeling politically that did not spring from the sentiments embodied in the Declaration of Independence." Lincoln vindicated the Constitution against the twin heresies of secession and nullification. Lincoln affirmed the two central principles of the Union: divided sovereignty and equal citizenship based on the natural rights of individuals. His true legacy is therefore preserving the Constitution and the Union.

 

[melking]

:???: And in Germany they should really allow the Nazi flag to be displayed as well... :roll:

You ain't from around here are you boy!

LOL Ryder go get im.

 

[melking]

Not to mention the nazi flag stood for a nation of hate, and the confederate flag stood for a group of states wanting states rights. Lights me up when people say the confederate flag stands for slavery. Only a narrow minded, uneducated, uninformed fool would think that.

Lets not forget that slavery was legal under the U.S flag long before and then even after it was abolished in the South. I thin kits ironic that all these left wingers seem to forget that the emancipation proclamation, by design didn't free the slaves, it freed "Some" of the slaves.

In the beginning only the slaves in the southern states...

 

[Caustic Burno]

TB you have made an assumption never said that there wasn't freedom of speech.
I actually encourage open discussion in my house, that is a long way to telling me No.
Again as long as your are under my roof eating my grociers you will adhere to my rule's while your are here.
This has absolutely nothing to do with a political view. I don't even know how you made that leap into the stratosphere.

Again Lincoln preserved a Union while destroying the Republic making it something it was never intended to be.
You have been brainwashed and are marching lockstep of the writer's of a construed version of our country.

You need to go back and read the Articles of Confederation our first constitution and the current one.
If was never intend to impede the state's, It was never meant that the federal would have dominance over that of the state. It was actually the opposite.
You can't say you adhere to the constitution and then Lincoln's version as they are not one in the same.
Lincoln's version split the country once and is doing it again for the second time.
What you profess to defend is what we fought the Revolution to free ourselves from a central government having dominance over all.

 

[TexasBred]

TB you have made an assumption never said that there wasn't freedom of speech.
I actually encourage open discussion in my house, that is a long way to telling me No.
Again as long as your are under my roof eating my grociers you will adhere to my rule's while your are here.
This has absolutely nothing to do with a political view. I don't even know how you made that leap into the stratosphere.

Again Lincoln preserved a Union while destroying the Republic making it something it was never intended to be.
You have been brainwashed and are marching lockstep of the writer's of a construed version of our country.

You need to go back and read the Articles of Confederation our first constitution and the current one.
If was never intend to impede the state's, It was never meant that the federal would have dominance over that of the state. It was actually the opposite.
You can't say you adhere to the constitution and then Lincoln's version as they are not one in the same.
Lincoln's version split the country once and is doing it again for the second time.
What you profess to defend is what we fought the Revolution to free ourselves from a central government having dominance over all.

CB Lincoln did not split the country. Southern states started seceeding before he was even innauguated. I haven't been brainwashed. Only made it a point to read history books written by those who also have not been brainwashed by the religion of the "Lost Cause".

 

[Caustic Burno]

TB it is not the religion of lost cause it is called the constitution.
Just read it concentrate on the tenth ammendment I typed this v e r y s l o w l y f o r y o u.
You are still trying to justify something in your mind our founders never intended to be.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Somebody please swat the flies! They are annoying.

 

[TexasBred]

TB it is not the religion of lost cause it is called the constitution.
Just read it concentrate on the tenth ammendment I typed this v e r y s l o w l y f o r y o u.
You are still trying to justify something in your mind our founders never intended to be.

CB,. lolo, now who is being hard headed. You're stuck in your confederate lore, refuse to even consider any other "facts" and thus really a waste of time. The fact that an entire political party existed and was dedicated to opposing Jefferson is glossed over very rapidly by our school teachers. After all, who could possible oppose Jefferson? That is "crazy" talk. Students are never told about the huge number of Founding Fathers and their followers who worked for years to oppose Jefferson's brand of republicanism.

You dodge "union" and go with "republic". Can you have a republic without a union? A cohesive group of different states forming one republic? One body with all it's working parts??

Now I'm not typing slow but I do encourage you to read slowly and comprehend. :mrgreen:

 

[greybeard]

Of course you can, and a very loose union of republics at that, with very little central government pressure.
Look at the EU. Even the old Soviet Union allowed a great deal of autonomy within it's union of different nation states, as have several mideast nation state unions more recently and currently..
Look at Great Britain. Made up of globally scattered Commonwealths, as well as independent nations of England, Scotland, Ireland, and even Wales.

 

[TexasBred]

Somebody please swat the flies! They are annoying.

You can always go back in the house. :mrgreen:

 

[Caustic Burno]

Of course you can, and a very loose union of republics at that, with very little central government pressure.
Look at the EU. Even the old Soviet Union allowed a great deal of autonomy within it's union of different nation states, as have several mideast nation state unions more recently and currently..
Look at Great Britain. Made up of globally scattered Commonwealths, as well as independent nations of England, Scotland, Ireland, and even Wales.

He doesn't get what he defend's that is the irony it was designed as a Republic not a union.
The United States was designed as independent states forming a loose Republic to keep from having one strong central government .

"when asked by a passerby what sort of government the constitutional convention had formulated for the new nation, Benjamin Franklin memorably replied, "A republic, if you can keep it"