Charolais/Black Angus Cross

[mnmtranching]

My purebred Angus cows are all from Registered BA Mothers [EXT Granddaughters] and registered bulls {Sitz Traveler] I still have some of the old registered cows and all could be registered. I have no need to register. I only now sell a few bulls to people that don't care if their registered. I use the Char bull only on 25 BA cows. All the crossbreds and the rest go on different pastures with Reg BA bulls.

 

[VanC]

It doesn't matter whether an Angus cow or bull is purebred or not and it doesn't matter whether they are registered or not. They can still carry the red gene.

 

[grubbie]

Whatever gene they carry, or don't carry, doesn't change the fact that they are good looking calves. Thank you for the pictures.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Whatever gene they carry, or don't carry, doesn't change the fact that they are good looking calves. Thank you for the pictures.

Yes, I agree.

 

[Keren]

Just a thought, could a Red Factor charolais bull on black cows be responsible for these pale red calves?

I too, have never seen this colour F1 CharxAngus calves. Just various shades of grey

 

[rattler]

Some good looking calf's you got their mnm. :nod:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Just a thought, could a Red Factor charolais bull on black cows be responsible for these pale red calves?

I too, have never seen this colour F1 CharxAngus calves. Just various shades of grey

Keren - black is dominant, so if the bull or cow is homozygous black - all calves will be black factored - meaning they would either be black or diluted black (which Charolais calves would be diluted), because the calf would have to inherit a black gene from the homo black parent. That's why I explained the Angus cows would have to be carrying the red gene. No big deal, just not a color you would normally expect out of that combination.

 

[Keren]

Ah ha, yes I understand that, thanks

I figured the cows in question must be red carriers too, when I saw those calves.

 

[mnmtranching]

The Char bull has the red gene. The breeder I buy my Char bulls from has one of the best reputations in the country. Some of his registered Charolais have the tint of tan in them. And I have never got a black calf from a BA cow bred Char. Go figure. After a few hundred of these cross calves could say it would be very rare, but I reckon it happens.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

mnm - the Charolais' coloring will never let you get a black calf. They will be black "factored" (smokies) but all Charolais offspring will be diluted.
But, again, a homozygous black cow (2 black genes) can ONLY have a black factored calf. That's all she can have because the only color gene she has to pass on to the calf would be a black gene and black genes are dominant. So, if she is carrying 1 black gene & 1 red gene (heterozygous black) - she "looks" all black, but sometimes she will pass the black gene and sometimes she will pass the red gene. So the calves you pictured, out of purebred Black Angus cows, inherited the red gene from the cow. Yes, the bull could have also given the calf the red (diluted) gene, but there is NO black gene in those calves, because they would HAVE to be black factored. Hope this makes sense. It's second hand to us because we've been breeding blacks & reds for years.

 

[3waycross]

mnm - the Charolais' coloring will never let you get a black calf. They will be black "factored" (smokies) but all Charolais offspring will be diluted.
But, again, a homozygous black cow (2 black genes) can ONLY have a black factored calf. That's all she can have because the only color gene she has to pass on to the calf would be a black gene and black genes are dominant. So, if she is carrying 1 black gene & 1 red gene (heterozygous black) - she "looks" all black, but sometimes she will pass the black gene and sometimes she will pass the red gene. So the calves you pictured, out of purebred Black Angus cows, inherited the red gene from the cow. Yes, the bull could have also given the calf the red (diluted) gene, but there is NO black gene in those calves, because they would HAVE to be black factored. Hope this makes sense. It's second hand to us because we've been breeding blacks & reds for years.

Jeanne if those calfs have NO blk gene in them please explain to me how I got a similar colored calf from a 1/4 Char(she is silver colored) cow whose mother is a blk baldie, when I bred her to a Reg RA bull. I would post pics but it may take a day or two as we finally got some snow and picture takin is low on my list of priorities right now.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Sure. If your 1/4 Char was Silver colored, that meant she was carrying 1 black gene & 1 red gene and 1 or 2 diluter genes. You bred her to a Red Angus bull (2 red genes). The calf inherited 1 red gene from the sire and 1 red gene from the dam and a diluter gene from the dam = dun/buff cream colored calf (red diluted).
Red cattle carrying one diluter gene can be anywhere from the soft cream color all the way to a dark cherry red. You cannot tell if a red cow (like a Simmental) is carrying a diluter gene by her color. But, if they are black with a diluter gene, it is definately expressed by "diluting" the black color.
I have had soft red calves out of two black parents (both being heterozygous black, 1 blk & 1 red gene), which means the calf absolutely could not be carrying a diluter gene (being out of two black parents). And I have had cherry red cows spit out a grey calf when bred to a black bull, because, even tho she was dark RED, she still carried the diluter gene and I didn't know it.
Clear as mud??? Like I said, I've been working with the diluter gene and reds & blacks for 40 years, so it's easy for me. No, it didn't take 40 years to learn - I am faster catching on than that! :banana: But, we were dealing with it before all the research was able to explain it to us.

 

[3waycross]

mnm - the Charolais' coloring will never let you get a black calf. They will be black "factored" (smokies) but all Charolais offspring will be diluted.

Jeanne I am not picking a fight but you are wrong. The full sister to the above mentioned cow that had the diluter red calf had (with the same RA bull) a BLACK calf this year. It is definately not a smokie. I will as as soon as possible post pictures of the sisters with their calves to prove this.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

mnm - the Charolais' coloring will never let you get a black calf. They will be black "factored" (smokies) but all Charolais offspring will be diluted.

Jeanne I am not picking a fight but you are wrong. The full sister to the above mentioned cow that had the diluter red calf had (with the same RA bull) a BLACK calf this year. It is definately not a smokie. I will as as soon as possible post pictures of the sisters with their calves to prove this.

3-way, I believe you but you were talking about a Silver 1/4 Charolais cow. I was talking about a purbred Charolais when I said you wouldn't get a true black. A PUREBRED Charolais will dilute the offspring, but I don't think the breed refers to the gene as a "diluter" gene. It may have a different name, but it is what makes them white instead of red, which is what Charolais really are (red - double diluted).
If your full sister is a 1/4 Charolais, than very likely she, also, is only carrying 1 diluter gene, so you flip a coin, sometime she will pass it - sometime she won't. Or, she may not be carrying ANY diluter gene being only 1/4 Charolais. Heck, a 1/4 Charolais COULD be black or red with no diluter gene. Remember there are always two pairs to a gene. If she has 1 diluter gene she must have 1 other gene which is either a non-diluter or a diluter gene (or whatever name the Charolais give it).

There is a good discussion on the color coat of Charolais (at least the first page & 1/2):
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54508&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

 

[mnmtranching]

I have not taken the time to study this "red gene, black gene, black factored, heterozygous, diluted, etc.
Don't need to. I know what I will get with char/BA cross when breeding purebred or full blood cattle. Breeding F1 cattle and 3 way cross would be a different story.And you know what to expect when crossing hereford to Angus or Char. Same with Red Angus.
Correct me if I'm wrong [no BS] That all this study with color factor has been brought about when Continental cattle breeders decided to turn their breeds red then black. My opinion, is that you have now limited the demand in commercial cattle breeders. If the cattle were good in their original colors why turn them black?
For instance, if you sell a black continental bull to commercial breeder that has several crosses in his cow herd are you going to explain that anything is possible. Paints, matt hairs, rope tails. And little predictability and uniformity in the calf crop.
I guess you better study up on color factor.
There is no doubt in my mind that the matt hair rope tail is the result of messing with the color of continental breeds.
If not, please explain. Thanks

 

[mwj]

Would you care to explain your ''reasoning'' other than wag. You are making some large leaps with not many facts to back them. I doubt if anyone changed the laws of genetics to change the color of cattle :shock:

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I don't know much about all this color stuff i just breed red cows. You put all this gene stuff down on paper but that don't always mean it will work the way it is suppose to.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I've explained it enough. Genetics are genetics. If you can't understand them or don't want to improve your knowledge, that's your problem.
Black bulls OF ANY BREED are predictable - either they are hertozygous black or homozygous black. They don't carry the diluter gene.
[quoteI have not taken the time to study this "red gene, black gene, black factored, heterozygous, diluted, etc.
Don't need to. I know what I will get with char/BA cross when breeding purebred or full blood cattle.][/quote]
You DON'T know anything about genetics (as you admitted). But, you don't need to, you're just a multiplier producing commercial cattle. That's fine. They are good calves. Just don't be criticising those of us who do know genetics and try to "teach" you something. I DO know a lot about genetics because I take time to learn - and I still have lots more to learn. When you stop learning you might as well quit.
Another tid-bit of genetics. You CANNOT get a rattail if the black animal in the crossbreeding is HOMOZYGOUS FOR BLACK. Only heteo black cattle can produce rat-tail cattle. And rat-tail cattle are not inferior to other cattle. Feedlot buyers use that as an excuse to pay less for them. They cannot handle the cold as well, due to shorter finer hair - but lots of cattle can't handle the cold due to shorter finer hair. http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/77/5/1144.pdf
I know - I'm wasting my time, you don't want to learn.

 

[mnmtranching]

I have learned a lot at feeder auctions. I visit with professional cattle buyers and feedlot owners. You may believe the rat tail matt hair is the same, they sure don't. They don't bid low to take advantage, they simply won't bid.
I think Continental cattle were mostly good in their so called natural color. Should have worked on birth weight, udder, size, disposition and the type stuff that would have improved your breed. Making them black was in short "a stupid move" And I have not met a buyer who would not agree that this rattail gene isn't the result of this messing with color.

 

[VanC]

Rat tail syndrome occurs when an animal with at least one black gene is mated to an animal with at least one dilution gene. If both the black gene AND the dilution gene are passed on to the calf, the calf MAY end up being a rat tail. It doesn't happen every time, in fact it's pretty rare, but the ONLY way a rat tail can occur is if the calf ends up with BOTH a black gene and a dilution gene.

Jeanne: I don't think your statement that a homozygous black animal can't produce a rat tail is correct. It's my understanding that if that black animal is crossed with one that carries the dilution gene, then the calf could be a rat tail. Yes, the calf would be heterozygous black, but it could get that black gene from either a homozygous or heterozygous black parent. Same with the dilution gene. As long as the calf has one black gene and one dilution gene it could be a rat tail, but it doesn't matter whether the parents were homozygous or heterozygous for either the black or the dilution gene. It only matters whether that gene is passed on to the calf.

mnmtranching: Rat tails have nothing to do with some continental breeds turning black. They were around in Europe long before these breeds turned black, and long before continentals were introduced into the United States. Charolais, some Simmentals, and some Gelbvieh carry the dilution gene. When these breeds were introduced in large numbers into the US, and were crossed with Angus or Holstein, that's when rat tails started popping up more often. The genes for producing rat tails were always present, but it wasn't until these genes were crossed in large numbers that rat tails became a problem. If you cross light red Simmentals or light red Gelbviehs with Angus you might get rat tails because these breeds can carry the dilution gene, and being light red, they probably do. If they are dark red, or black, they probably don't. If you cross red Limousin or Salers with Angus you won't get rat tails because these breeds don't carry the dilution gene. In other words, it's not the fact that these are continental breeds that causes rat tails, or that some breeds have turned black. It's whether they carry the dilution gene or not that matters.

You made reference to buying bulls that might carry the dilution gene. Obviously, a person that has black cows might not want to use a bull that carries the dilution gene because rat tails could occur. A good breeder should know whether his bulls might carry that gene and will be honest about it. As for using a black bull on crossbred cows, rat tails might pop up if the dilution gene is present in the cowherd, but that dilution gene would have to come from the cow, not the bull. Black bulls do not have the dilution gene, no matter what breed they are. If they did, they'd be gray.

As for whether rat tails are inferior to normal calves, that's debatable. Most research I've seen shows that rat tails are equal to normal calves, except for the hair and tail. Obviously, because of the sparse coat, rat tails won't perform as well in the cold as would animals with a normal coat. So a buyer wouldn't want to buy rat tails if he's going to ship them to a feedlot where the winters are harsh. If they're going to a feedlot in a warm weather area, they should be fine, but they're going to be discounted either way.