Charolais/Black Angus Cross

[alacattleman]

Some very excellent explanations regarding genetics influencing coat color proven by many years of research. Thanks to those who took the time and made the attempt at sharing valuable information. I, however, am still waiting for an explanation of how in the world can one possibly have a black white face cow that is 'purebred' without the influence of Hereford or Simmental?

There is not way. White face is a dominant gene that is a feature of hereford and simmental. If you have an animal with a white face, somewhere along the line it has it in there. I had a steer that was 7/8ths angus 1/8th simmental which is a FANTASTIC cross and he had a white face. And people will buy it here in Australia. Baldies are popular. But to re-cap, if its got a white face, hereford or simmie are in there somewhere.

And like mentioned, to get a red calf out of a black angus heifer all you need is for it to be heterozygous and come across a heterozygous black or homozygous red bull. Doesn't mean it's not pure bred, she's just good at hiding this red gene. Actually it probably means she is more pure bred because if it has never appeared in her line and only carried, means most of the bulls used in the line were homozygous. Or perhaps she got the gene from a heterozygous bull and her line previously was always homozygous black.

I don't think I have ever come across this rat tail gene but I still stick by what I said in that the gene was probably a rare gene coming from a breed that wasn't heavily used, then heavily used and INBRED which is why it started to appear in other breeds and more common. Keren went into to detail about population and genetics.

good luck finding it.... its a condition not really a gene ...and it aint isolated too simmentals it can occur in about any continental bred too a black angus

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Never saw a rat tail out off a fullblood Limi bull.

 

[3waycross]

Some very excellent explanations regarding genetics influencing coat color proven by many years of research. Thanks to those who took the time and made the attempt at sharing valuable information. I, however, am still waiting for an explanation of how in the world can one possibly have a black white face cow that is 'purebred' without the influence of Hereford or Simmental?

There is not way. White face is a dominant gene that is a feature of hereford and simmental. If you have an animal with a white face, somewhere along the line it has it in there. I had a steer that was 7/8ths angus 1/8th simmental which is a FANTASTIC cross and he had a white face. And people will buy it here in Australia. Baldies are popular. But to re-cap, if its got a white face, hereford or simmie are in there somewhere.

And like mentioned, to get a red calf out of a black angus heifer all you need is for it to be heterozygous and come across a heterozygous black or homozygous red bull. Doesn't mean it's not pure bred, she's just good at hiding this red gene. Actually it probably means she is more pure bred because if it has never appeared in her line and only carried, means most of the bulls used in the line were homozygous. Or perhaps she got the gene from a heterozygous bull and her line previously was always homozygous black.

I don't think I have ever come across this rat tail gene but I still stick by what I said in that the gene was probably a rare gene coming from a breed that wasn't heavily used, then heavily used and INBRED which is why it started to appear in other breeds and more common. Keren went into to detail about population and genetics.

We get white faced calves all the time out of purebred shorthorns and Red angus or Gelbvieh bulls. I have the pictures to prove it.

 

[aussie_cowgirl]

Some very excellent explanations regarding genetics influencing coat color proven by many years of research. Thanks to those who took the time and made the attempt at sharing valuable information. I, however, am still waiting for an explanation of how in the world can one possibly have a black white face cow that is 'purebred' without the influence of Hereford or Simmental?

There is not way. White face is a dominant gene that is a feature of hereford and simmental. If you have an animal with a white face, somewhere along the line it has it in there. I had a steer that was 7/8ths angus 1/8th simmental which is a FANTASTIC cross and he had a white face. And people will buy it here in Australia. Baldies are popular. But to re-cap, if its got a white face, hereford or simmie are in there somewhere.

And like mentioned, to get a red calf out of a black angus heifer all you need is for it to be heterozygous and come across a heterozygous black or homozygous red bull. Doesn't mean it's not pure bred, she's just good at hiding this red gene. Actually it probably means she is more pure bred because if it has never appeared in her line and only carried, means most of the bulls used in the line were homozygous. Or perhaps she got the gene from a heterozygous bull and her line previously was always homozygous black.

I don't think I have ever come across this rat tail gene but I still stick by what I said in that the gene was probably a rare gene coming from a breed that wasn't heavily used, then heavily used and INBRED which is why it started to appear in other breeds and more common. Keren went into to detail about population and genetics.

We get white faced calves all the time out of purebred shorthorns and Red angus or Gelbvieh bulls. I have the pictures to prove it.

Probably because you can get white faced shorthorns... which would be a different gene to that of a hereford or simmental but still shows that a pure bred angus can not have a white face

 

[mnmtranching]

Oh NO :cry2: I got to comment one more time. Check back. I said I have more then one pasture and have more then my back yard fenced in. Check it out I also said my crossbred cattle go with Black Angus bulls.
And check again all of this argument was caused by OK genes Smart A$$ comments.

So why do I find it TOTALLY amusing :clap: :clap: That Jeanie from simmi vally New York thinks she should teach me all about cattle and beef production. I just think that is funny as heck. :lol: :lol:
Is this a ego thing? You think?
So OK Genes, do you want to let this go or do you want some fun. :lol: :lol: I'm :cowboy: game.

 

[mwj]

Oh NO :cry2: I got to comment one more time. Check back. I said I have more then one pasture and have more then my back yard fenced in. Check it out I also said my crossbred cattle go with Black Angus bulls.
And check again all of this argument was caused by OK genes Smart A$$ comments.

So why do I find it TOTALLY amusing :clap: :clap: That Jeanie from simmi vally New York thinks she should teach me all about cattle and beef production. I just think that is funny as heck. :lol: :lol:
Is this a ego thing? You think?
So OK Genes, do you want to let this go or do you want some fun. :lol: :lol: I'm :cowboy: game.

Did any of the SEVERAL people that posted about the genetics of color selection teach YOU anything :???: Since I do not see a large crowd gathering to back some of your WAG's I think maybe you should be the one to ''let it go''. If you care to explain the cross that caused the calf color again you could have some more of your ''fun'' :cowboy:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Yes, I do recall you saying you have more than 1 pasture. So???
Let's see, here's how this started (since you are unable to admit anything: here's the posts
1. You posted pictures of your NICE calves
2. Looks like hereford/char cross
3. said good cross
4. said good cross
5. "surrprised at color also - got some calves that color with Hereford sire
6. I'd say the Black Angus has the red gene
7. YOU posted - no Herefords in them
8. agree - Black Angus has red gene
9. same color as 1/4 Char x with Red Angus
10. Red x Char cross
11. Jeanne - SV posted: Looks like a black white faced cow in the background. I would suspect the "purebred" angus cows are Hereford/Angus crosses. These calves inherited the RED gene from dam. Yes, you can expect a "purebred" Angus to throw a red gene "occasionally" but unusual to have two in a row.
12. YOU posted: Funny post Like you would know
13. Jeanne - SV posted: What I "know", is that there is a black white face cow in your SECOND picture, unless my computer is playing tricks on me. That BWF sure looks like a hereford x angus cow to me or maybe a Simmental x cow. Anyway, I was just saying if you have a BWF cow you might have some angus x hereford cows that are the dams to these calves. And, as I SAID, these calves came out of a cow that is carrying a RED GENE. That's FACT. That's basic 101 GENETICS.
So, not sure how to take your comment - but, as I said, IF YOUR COWS are supposed to be PUREBRED ANGUS, than they are BOTH carrying the resessive RED GENE - and they BOTH passed the red gene to their calf. I was NOT calling you a liar or anything else. Just stating a very COMMON FACT.
Are your cows purebred REGISTERED Angus, and are these two dams related?

So, THIS was the start of this thread. I stated FACTS. Didn't call you a liar, make fun of your operation, call you names, say your calves were "fluffy county fair calves" - NOTHING. I posted AFTER 6 OTHER PEOPLE SAID THEY WERE "RED" crosses.
You have completely sealed your own coffin - totally made a fool of yourself. I didn't do a thing.
Why don't you spend a little time RE-READING these 4 or 5 pages and maybe you MIGHT learn something. After all, that's what most of us try to do - LEARN from each other.

 

[mnmtranching]

Looks like a black white faced cow in the background. I would suspect the "purebred" angus cows are Hereford/Angus crosses. These calves inherited the RED gene from dam. Yes, you can expect a "purebred" Angus to throw a red gene "occasionally" but unusual to have two in a row.

This is the dumb a$$ comment. :nod: All gene-e would have had to do is retract this and we could have gotten along fine.
So I got three Char/Angus cross that are light brown the rest are smokie. Where does the 2 in a row come from? the twins?
By the way, I can't imagine anything on these forums that could upset me or make me angry. :roll: Entertained for sure. never angry.
The only ones all worked up are a few Simmental fans. Sorry about that. I don't normally bash cattle breeds. Maybe their getting better, but Simmentals have a horrible history.
Gene-e loves doing research ask her about it, see if she can be honest.
And Gene-e How the heck do you find time and the interest to look up my old photos? :? That pic must be 05. You want access to my photo bucket account I have thousands of photos. I have pics of my BA cattle and heifer pastures to. :cowboy:

 

[alacattleman]

Looks like a black white faced cow in the background. I would suspect the "purebred" angus cows are Hereford/Angus crosses. These calves inherited the RED gene from dam. Yes, you can expect a "purebred" Angus to throw a red gene "occasionally" but unusual to have two in a row.

This is the dumb a$$ comment. :nod: All gene-e would have had to do is retract this and we could have gotten along fine.
So I got three Char/Angus cross that are light brown the rest are smokie. Where does the 2 in a row come from? the twins?
By the way, I can't imagine anything on these forums that could upset me or make me angry. :roll: Entertained for sure. never angry.
The only ones all worked up are a few Simmental fans. Sorry about that. I don't normally bash cattle breeds. Maybe their getting better, but Simmentals have a horrible history.
Gene-e loves doing research ask her about it, see if she can be honest.
And Gene-e How the heck do you find time and the interest to look up my old photos? :? That pic must be 05. You want access to my photo bucket account I have thousands of photos. I have pics of my BA cattle and heifer pastures to. :cowboy:

so did charolais a few years ago ... but as with simmental ,you put em in the wrong hands and they can ruin any breed or its reputation...

 

[mnmtranching]

Alacattleman, Your right.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Looks like a black white faced cow in the background. I would suspect the "purebred" angus cows are Hereford/Angus crosses. These calves inherited the RED gene from dam. Yes, you can expect a "purebred" Angus to throw a red gene "occasionally" but unusual to have two in a row.

This is the dumb a$$ comment. :nod: All gene-e would have had to do is retract this and we could have gotten along fine.
So I got three Char/Angus cross that are light brown the rest are smokie. Where does the 2 in a row come from? the twins?
By the way, I can't imagine anything on these forums that could upset me or make me angry. :roll: Entertained for sure. never angry.
The only ones all worked up are a few Simmental fans. Sorry about that. I don't normally bash cattle breeds. Maybe their getting better, but Simmentals have a horrible history.
Gene-e loves doing research ask her about it, see if she can be honest.
And Gene-e How the heck do you find time and the interest to look up my old photos? :? That pic must be 05. You want access to my photo bucket account I have thousands of photos. I have pics of my BA cattle and heifer pastures to. :cowboy:

I was quite clear and I have NOTHING TO RETRACT.
Your SECOND PICTURE that YOU posted has a BWF COW in the background (and if that wasn't clear enough for you, I explained it again in the next post). I was not saying there was Hereford in the "background" of the calves. Now is that clear?
You posted the set of twins (red factored) and you posted another one (red factored) and you SAID they were out of purebred black angus cows. That's where "2 in a row" came from. Clear???
And for your information, I did not research your picture - I would never waste my time. One of your "other" fans sent it to me - laughing at YOU - and no, they are not Simmental breeders. Sooo - I was bad and posted it.

 

[KNERSIE]

I have no dog in this fight and consider both parties my friends, but I have to say I question the validity (or objectivity) of some of that MARC research.

The samples was either chosen poorly not being representative of the breeds as a whole or the sample size wasn't big enough.... or, heaven forbid, my breed is further up shite creek than I ever thought possible in the USA. ;-)

 

[3waycross]

MARC research is a scam.

3000 total head in one particular environment (southern Nebraska) can not possibly tell us all we need to know about the differences in the breeds. Not to mention out of the 3000 head many are composites MARC I, MARC II, MARC III, MARC IV ect........... as well as various F-1s.

Typical government BS. I take anything produced by the US government with a big grain of salt.


Edited to add:

If you actually look at the MARC studies, and believe they are the "be all and end all", I think I'd choose Gelbvieh over Simmental.

That probably makes more sense.

 

[capt]

Add one more to the list of those who do not believe in the MARC data. I had the opportunity to visit and tour the operation for the second time several years ago (first while in college) and in my mind had slipped further down a slippery slope in the management of those cows as well as the environment that really only fits less than half of beef cow/calf country. They tell you that they use a cross section of genetics from each breed involved but no breeders are aware of who donated genetic material. As far as herefords go, I am certain that their own hereford population is the basis for the MARC hereford influenced data and one herd is not representative of the entire Hereford breed. If someone has more detailed and 'insider' information as to where the genetic material (semen) for the research comes from, I am all ears ( or in this case eyes!!).

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

As I said, all Breed Associations have access to this information and can use or dispute or manipulate as they see fit. But, if they use the data incorrectly, I have to "assume" other breed associations would take them up on it. It may not be as massive a research as maybe some other countries, but it has been the basis of USA's data, along with University research. Right now, I get to hang my hat on this data :banana:
Independent of the MARC research, the American Simmental Assn. has been running one of the oldest carcass data research. They have bred more than 30,000 females to Registered and commercial ANGUS heifers. Montana University students "live" at the farms and gather all the calving data. They use Simmental bulls with +10 CE EPD proving their calving ease on british heifers. Than the steers and heifers (if the producer will let them have the heifers) go to a feedlot and they get all the carcass data. They also have a coop research going with Univ of Illinois and are running feed efficiency evaluations.
Knersie, the Hereford breed here has been slammed for a number of years by feedlot buyers because of their poor performance on the feedlot, but the breed has been running their own feedlot tests & have been working on improving them. I never go to a local sale barn, so I don't know how bad it is right now. I don't think a lot has changed tho. Others can address that.

 

[KNERSIE]

Knersie, the Hereford breed here has been slammed for a number of years by feedlot buyers because of their poor performance on the feedlot, but the breed has been running their own feedlot tests & have been working on improving them. I never go to a local sale barn, so I don't know how bad it is right now. I don't think a lot has changed tho. Others can address that

.

Trangely enough herefords outperform just about all other breeds in feedlots here. Its usually between hereford and limousin with bonsmara 3rd when it comes to FCR and ADG. I'd rather not say which breed fares by far the worst.

 

[mnmtranching]

Looks like a black white faced cow in the background. I would suspect the "purebred" angus cows are Hereford/Angus crosses. These calves inherited the RED gene from dam. Yes, you can expect a "purebred" Angus to throw a red gene "occasionally" but unusual to have two in a row.

You suspect that the purebred Angus cows are Hereford crosses. Yup! :banana: no matter how you want to look at it it's "dumb ass" . Even though Hereford/Angus is a darn good cross.

So you got mister "what" formally "somn" as your ally. :lol: :lol:
pm ing you photos and everything. Good for you, you guys can transfer wisdom. :compute:
This is really getting funny! :roll:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Looks like a black white faced cow in the background. I would suspect the "purebred" angus cows are Hereford/Angus crosses. These calves inherited the RED gene from dam. Yes, you can expect a "purebred" Angus to throw a red gene "occasionally" but unusual to have two in a row.

You suspect that the purebred Angus cows are Hereford crosses. Yup! :banana: no matter how you want to look at it it's "dumb ass" . Even though Hereford/Angus is a darn good cross.

So you got mister "what" formally "somn" as your ally. :lol: :lol:
pm ing you photos and everything. Good for you, you guys can transfer wisdom. :compute:
This is really getting funny! :roll:

What's the matter? Haven't I said something new to irritate you?
People with higher intellect than you, can fully understand my remarks WHICH WERE MADE BACK ON PAGE 1 OF THIS THREAD - get a life.
I'm tired of you bad mouthing me, bad mouthing my breed, bad mouthing my cattle, bad mouthing my state, calling me names - although it just keeps fortifying how foolish you are and how little you truly know about breeding cattle and how LITTLE you are as a person. Keep it up, I can just sit back and watch you and laugh - like most others on this board.

Let's see - here's some of the people that have either agreed about the RED gene in your cows or supported some of what I have said in this thread:
xbred - dyates - sooknortex - VanC - aero - what? - alacattleman - Keren - mjw - aussie_cowgirl
Do you think ALL of them are "dumb a$$" also???
I never said purebred angus cows were hereford crosses - which, if you could read ENGLISH you would understand. I "insinuated" that YOU don't KNOW what your "all black cows" really are. Even if they were Registered (which you say they are not), you cannot understand that they ARE IN FACT CARRRYING A RED GENE. ----- RED GENE - RED GENE - RED GENE - get it????
AND, I did say that a Hfd x Angus (BWF) cow (which you DO OWN - you showed us one in your 2nd picture) bred to a Black Angus bull will produce a SOLID BLACK COW, which someone unknowledgeable like you, that won't try to understand genetics "might" call a purebred Angus cow.
If you think this little old lady is going to back down to your foolish brow-beating - think again.

 

[mnmtranching]

I don't mind anybody saying my BA cows might carry the red gene, Gene-e. I think it's weird that you think my purebred Angus are Hereford crosses,. What does your pal somn think?
Nobody but you said my purebred Angus are crossed with Hereford. :nod:
Sounds like your getting pretty upset. Just take it easy this is a forum. I feel some guilty, I should be nicer :nod: didn't know you were a old lady. :help: I really don't care about the "red gene". Have your new friend "what" check this thread, I don't believe I ever said that my BA cows don't have a red gene, I suspected my Char bull might. Doesn't matter, no threat of "rat tails". You better be careful and know your genes Gene-e.
I can be nice :tiphat: Just tell me you were wrong about my full blood Angus cows being Hereford cross.
And I won't bad mouth your club cattle again. Other wise. :help:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I don't mind anybody saying my BA cows might carry the red gene, Gene-e. I think it's weird that you think my purebred Angus are Hereford crosses,. What does your pal somn think?
Nobody but you said my purebred Angus are crossed with Hereford. :nod:
Sounds like your getting pretty upset. Just take it easy this is a forum. I feel some guilty, I should be nicer :nod: didn't know you were a old lady. :help: I really don't care about the "red gene". Have your new friend "what" check this thread, I don't believe I ever said that my BA cows don't have a red gene, I suspected my Char bull might. Doesn't matter, no threat of "rat tails". You better be careful and know your genes Gene-e.
I can be nice :tiphat: Just tell me you were wrong about my full blood Angus cows being Hereford cross.
And I won't bad mouth your club cattle again. Other wise. :help:

See - you just continue to show your lack of general breed genetics. YES, your Charolais bull has the RED GENE - two in fact. All Charolais cattle carry two red genes - duh! well, except the "new" black charolais :lol2:
I'm not the least bit upset - I'm having a ball letting you make a fool of yourself. I open the door - you insert FOOT. :banana:
And again, READ MY TYPING, I never said your PB black cows were Hfd cross. I'm saying, you are not knowledgeable enough to KNOW what they are. But, I'm not argueing as to whether or not they are PB or registered or what they are - who cares??? The only point I made, clear back when, was that they carried the red gene. And you now acknowedge that - so, what's your "beef" now??