Charolais/Black Angus Cross

[mnmtranching]

VanC, interesting and informative. So tell me why your research would be more valid then my research. And why do you know more than me bout this subject. Not saying your wrong. Explain.

 

[bigag03]

Red cattle carrying one diluter gene can be anywhere from the soft cream color all the way to a dark cherry red. You cannot tell if a red cow (like a Simmental) is carrying a diluter gene by her color. But, if they are black with a diluter gene, it is definately expressed by "diluting" the black color.

Be careful in your explanation Jeanne. The Simmental dilution and the Charolais dilution are two different genes. Your explanation is correct for the Simmental dilution, but the Charolais dilution can always be detected phenotypically, even in red cattle with heterozygous dilution.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Red cattle carrying one diluter gene can be anywhere from the soft cream color all the way to a dark cherry red. You cannot tell if a red cow (like a Simmental) is carrying a diluter gene by her color. But, if they are black with a diluter gene, it is definately expressed by "diluting" the black color.

Be careful in your explanation Jeanne. The Simmental dilution and the Charolais dilution are two different genes. Your explanation is correct for the Simmental dilution, but the Charolais dilution can always be detected phenotypically, even in red cattle with heterozygous dilution.

Yes, you are quite right. As I said above, the Charolais' gene isn't really called a diluter gene. It's more like an eliminator gene - it eliminates color, whereas the Simmental gene is a true diluter. And the explaination I gave is definately Simmental's gene pattern. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[aussie_cowgirl]

Jeanne is right. I study genetics. It isn't a single gene that controls animal colouring. if B = black and b= red (with capital letter being dominant and lower case being recessive). If you have 2 homozygous black cattle (genotype BB, genotype being what its genes are, phenotype means how it is expressed) and breed them you will always get a black calf.

ie. BB x BB = BB

If you have BB x Bb you will still always have black calves but you have a 1/2 a chance of that calf having a recessine (not expressed) red gene. So then if you breed 2 heterozygous bulls ie. Bb x Bb, you have a 1/4 chance of a homozygous black calf, a 1/2 chance of a heterozygous black calf and a 1/4 chance of a bb calf, ie a phenotype red calf.

Thats one gene. Baldies have something similar. W being white face, w being coloured face. white face being dominant (but in cross bred baldies they could be genotype Ww and phenotype baldie and when crossed with a Ww or ww bull, throw a coloured face calf).

But what Jeanne it trying to get at is other genes which further affect colour. In humans you have B = brown eyes and b= blue eyes. And the heterozygous, homozygous idea still applies. But as we all know people can have green, hazel, grey etc eyes. This is caused by other genes that influence eye colour.

I'm unsure about the technical details of this diluting gene but the principal is the same. and if you have a 3 way cross there is a mass of genes to choose from. In 2 full blood 1/4 charolais the proportion of genes shared is going to be less than in a pure bred. So if you use a red bull he is automatically bb genotype. And lets) say that dilution is dominant (As jeanne mentioned, charolais are diluted, so we'll have D = diluted gene and d= undiluted gene. To get a diluted calf (and thus variation in shades in colour) the red angus bull would have to be a rr (homozygous red, phenotype red) and a Dd (heterozygous diluted, phenotype diluted) a DD (homozygous diluted) or a dd (homozygous undiluted, most likely in an RA). And one of your cows is a Rr (heterozygous black, phenotype black) and Dd (heterozygous diluted, phenotype diluted) you have a variety of available outcomes;

Rr DD (black diluted)
rr DD (red diluted)
Rr Dd (black diluted)
Rr dd (black undiluted)
rr dd (red undiluted)

so we have 5 different possibilities of calves without going into detail of chance of each. And thats just 2 genes. There are more than 2 genes regarding coat colour.

And with 2 sisters in a 2 way mix there is a higher likelihood of heterozygous genotypes thus, a wider variety of outcomes in calf colour. Take for example 2 black angus cattle. You have a better chance of picking how the calf will look because the likelihood of similar genes within a pure breed is higher than that of crossbreds.

Hopefully I have educated more than I have confused.


EDIT: note that a pureblood black angus line can carry a recessive unexpressed red gene for an infinite number of animals. That red gene would never be expressed until it was crossed with a homozygous red or a heterozygous black.

Also some genes dont have just 2 outcomes, some have 3 (eg Shorthorn) R = red (dominant) W= white (dominant) which makes
RR= Red
WW= White
RW= Roan
This is called co-dominance.

 

[aussie_cowgirl]

Oh and also with this rat tail thing, genes don't piggy back with each other. What's likely is in that some of these breeds there was a rare gene called the 'rat tail gene' and is only found with these breeds of cattle. So through years of inbreeding and cross breeding and genetic mixing you get the recessive rat tail gene becoming more common. And when you have a rat tail animal it is homozygous so it will always breed a carrier or a sufferer. Some genes are more common with some breeds. Population distribution and what not.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

aussie-cowgirl - thank you for that super detailed explaination. But, we're wasting our typing fingers on deaf eyes!!! He asks for explainations, saying he wants to learn - but than, totally ignores what we tell him. Not sure if it's lack of ability to learn or just plain old stubborn-ness.
But, for those out there that do want to learn - that was the best explaination posted. thanks.

For whatever reason, mnm does not want to believe that his PUREBRED (non-registered) Angus cows could possible be carrying a red gene :shock: He should talk to REGISTERED PUREBRED BLACK ANGUS breeders and ask if one of their cows could possibly be carrying the red gene. It shows up more & more - and the Red Angus breeders love them because it gives them new genetics for their breed.
35-40 years ago, when we lived in Kansas, PB BA breeders would destroy a calf if it was born RED - they were afraid people would think there was something wrong with their "purebred" herd. Now, BA breeders understand them and "embrace" them because they are a saleable item.

 

[aussie_cowgirl]

Genetics are funny, there is so many buts. What I forgot to mention as well is that due to the nature of meiosis (which is the reproduction of a sex cell, embryo in female, spermoza in male) full sisters can have completely different genes. So it's just as likely that one 1/4 char heifer has a completely different set up to her full blood sister (like in people. I have red hair and blue eyes which is recessive, my sister is a blonde with green eyes, but we're full sisters.)

Here is a link to a good image describing meiosis.
http://publications.nigms.nih.gov/thene ... eiosis.jpg

 

[Keren]

Also to complicate matters more , there are two things called penetrance and expressivity

Penetrance describes how many members of the population with a particular genotype show the expected phenotype. Penetrance can be complete (100%) as with simple Mendelian genetics, or incomplete.

Expressivity refers to the degree or intensity with which a particular genotype is expressed in a phenotype. Again, it can be variable or unvarying.

A good example is a class of 10 students. They all have the ability to cheat on their upcoming genetics test. Their genotype, or genetic base, allows for it. Out of the 10 students, 2 cheat on their test. So the penetrance of cheating in this population is 20%. Of the two students that cheated, Lucy and Meg, Lucy wrote some notes on her arm concerning areas she wasnt sure of. Meg sat next to a very bright student and copied all the answers onto her exam paper. Thus, the expressivity of cheating in this population is variable, with the cheating phenotype being more intensely expressed, or expressed to a higher degree, in Meg, when compared with Lucy.

Oh yeah, genetics is fun :banana:

I should add I have no idea what the expressivity and penetrance is for the various genes controlling coat colour in cattle.

 

[aussie_cowgirl]

Don't worry Keren. Even experts don't fully understand it. There are always 'black swans' so to say.

 

[mnmtranching]

I think its not possible,but Jeanie should do more to get rid of the rat tail in her cattle and not worry so much about Angus. They seem to be doing OK.
Now why would she say that Simmentals are gaining popularity? 15 years ago there were quite a few Simme breeders in cattle country, many commercial guys tried it. :shock: What a train wreck, still trying to breed the CRAP out of their herds.
You don't have to take my word for it. Call some managers at some of these large feeder calf sale and ask " How do Simmental influenced calve sell" :frowns:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

mnm - you really don't deserve any kind of an answer, but --
first, my herd does not carry any diluter gene anymore. I was referring to 20-40 years ago - which is closer to how far back your so-called bad reputation was. You need to update yourself.
MARC research has proven what is needed to be known of our breed, let alone the PROGRESSIVE breeders in this crountry.
Simmental breed is easier calving than the Herefords - MARC RESEARCH
Simmental breed is within 2% of the Angus breed for calving ease - MARC RESEARCH
Simmental females calve easier than any Continental or British breed - MARC RESEARCH
Simmental is the #1 Continental breed for marbling - MARC RESEARCH
Simmental will improve yield by 3/4 of a grade over Angus - MARC RESEARCH
Simmental will grow faster from birth to weaning than any other breed - MARC RESEARCH
Simmental females will wean heavier calves than any Continental or British breed - MARC
SIMMENTAL is the #1 Continental breed for all traits - MARC
ANGUS is the #1 British breed for all traits - MARC
I'm sure there are more FACTS I'm missing, but "most of you" get the picture.
The Simmental breed has made more progress than any other breed over the past 20 years.

Oh, and by the way, mnm, MARC stands for USDA Meat Animal Research Center. I understand you don't care to retain FACTS, but this is the main research center for BEEF.
I don't just spit out nasty remarks about other people, breeds, or facts - LIKE YOU. The people of this board can believe whoever they care to, that's there choice. I have nothing to hide.

 

[capt]

Some very excellent explanations regarding genetics influencing coat color proven by many years of research. Thanks to those who took the time and made the attempt at sharing valuable information. I, however, am still waiting for an explanation of how in the world can one possibly have a black white face cow that is 'purebred' without the influence of Hereford or Simmental?

 

[alacattleman]

I think its not possible,but Jeanie should do more to get rid of the rat tail in her cattle and not worry so much about Angus. They seem to be doing OK.
Now why would she say that Simmentals are gaining popularity? 15 years ago there were quite a few Simme breeders in cattle country, many commercial guys tried it. :shock: What a train wreck, still trying to breed the CRAP out of their herds.
You don't have to take my word for it. Call some managers at some of these large feeder calf sale and ask " How do Simmental influenced calve sell" :frowns:

can't happen, and you really dont have too be genetic scientist too understand why

 

[rockridgecattle]

in our older cattle we had alot of Sim influence as well as Char and herford. We have kind of bred that out in the last few years with angus bulls both red and black., and are missing the cross now. We did have alot of rat tails but i do not believe that was because of Simmintal in the herd.
I firmly believe it was due to inbreeing in previous years. (before our time on the farm and the first few years joint farming with inlaws) When the rat tails surfaced more often with different cows, i started to trace the mommas. It all traced back to relations. So did the curly coats, and the bottle neck nuts that would only allow one nut down at a time when trying to band.
Once we did the tracing, we started to elimate these cows from the herd, and their offspring. We brought in new bulls and now after alot of hard work we have eliminated the rat tail for now as well as the other genetic problems. We are still watching incase we missed one or two.
We did notice that certain not pure angus bulls, when crossed with these cows would throw these funky calves. Then the next year not funky from that cow, but a different bull bred her. Then the next year, bull 1 would breed that same cow and another funky calf. Clear as mud?
Now i have to say, with mostly angus cows, not pure bred, some red some black, we are now looking to herford bulls to offer the black and red baldie crosses.

In the last Canadian Cattlemens magazine, they are touting the black cow char bull cross. The have even changed the name of grey, which most buyers discounted in our sale barn. They are now calling the cross Silver. Good choice of word. Hope the marketing will help to stop the discount on these chunky calves.

 

[mnmtranching]

I'm going to have to google that up and check the missing facts. :cowboy:
It's probably the results for one pen. :nod: When there were dozens of pens of Angus tested.
Funny how breed associations will print up the info their members like to read.

I will conclude my comments on this thread with. New York is INDEED a different place. I get the impression that the NY state beef industry is mostly made up of the "fenced in back yard" type cattle people. Most are experts on all phases of beef production. I base my knowledge on cattle from cattlemen in cattle country. Folks that actually need to know cattle simply because it's their ONLY lively hood. :wave:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Google to your heart's content:
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/rese ... rccomp.htm
I will grant each breed will take out bits & pieces to enhance their program - but, and this is a big BUT, they have to be really careful because every other breed is trying to prove them wrong. Sooo - you might be able to pick out something that suits your argument - but, the facts I quoted are facts.
Again, you are showing your intelligence by questioning the MARC Research saying, "It's probably the results for one pen. When there were dozens of pens of Angus tested." :banana: :banana:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Some very excellent explanations regarding genetics influencing coat color proven by many years of research. Thanks to those who took the time and made the attempt at sharing valuable information. I, however, am still waiting for an explanation of how in the world can one possibly have a black white face cow that is 'purebred' without the influence of Hereford or Simmental?

Thank you.
mnm ignores all direct questions about his herd. He only likes to speculate about others' cattle. But, I did understant that the BWF cows did not produce those dun colored calves. They were produced out of PUREBRED black cows (not registered) that are obviously carrying the red gene (but, oh my, don't try to tell him that!).
Here's a pic of his herd:

Did you pick out his purebreds? Oh, yes, he probably bought them without papers from the sale barn after this picture was taken. He is soooo adament (sp?) to NOT admit that his purebred black cows are carrying a red gene. But, why, it's no sin. Ask a PUREBRED REGISTERED Angus breeder. Ask a purebred Simmental breeder - I have lots of them - they are called HETEROZYGOUS BLACK COWS. Big deal!
This is getting out of hand. You would think way back when this post started that I slapped him in the face when I explained (nicely) that his cows had to be carrying a red gene. I really don't understant why he is so mad - about what ????

 

[alacattleman]

i dont neither and dam if id lose sleep worryin' :lol:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

It has been entertaining :lol:

 

[aussie_cowgirl]

Some very excellent explanations regarding genetics influencing coat color proven by many years of research. Thanks to those who took the time and made the attempt at sharing valuable information. I, however, am still waiting for an explanation of how in the world can one possibly have a black white face cow that is 'purebred' without the influence of Hereford or Simmental?

There is not way. White face is a dominant gene that is a feature of hereford and simmental. If you have an animal with a white face, somewhere along the line it has it in there. I had a steer that was 7/8ths angus 1/8th simmental which is a FANTASTIC cross and he had a white face. And people will buy it here in Australia. Baldies are popular. But to re-cap, if its got a white face, hereford or simmie are in there somewhere.

And like mentioned, to get a red calf out of a black angus heifer all you need is for it to be heterozygous and come across a heterozygous black or homozygous red bull. Doesn't mean it's not pure bred, she's just good at hiding this red gene. Actually it probably means she is more pure bred because if it has never appeared in her line and only carried, means most of the bulls used in the line were homozygous. Or perhaps she got the gene from a heterozygous bull and her line previously was always homozygous black.

I don't think I have ever come across this rat tail gene but I still stick by what I said in that the gene was probably a rare gene coming from a breed that wasn't heavily used, then heavily used and INBRED which is why it started to appear in other breeds and more common. Keren went into to detail about population and genetics.