Cattle Passion/Money

[Bright Raven]

What is profit? More properly stated: Is profit being properly calculated?

Who on here puts a value on their labor? To properly determine profit you must value your labor. If you are capable of making $30 an hour welding, then you need to ask yourself if you can afford to make $10 an hour working a cattle operation and lose $20 an hour in the process.

Remember: the expenses that are allowed under state and federal tax law are not your only expenses. You cannot deduct your personal labor but it is a real expense in the same way if you hire the neighbor to buck bales.

Another considerstion is capital. Could the capital you have working be better deployed elsewhere? In bonds, stocks, etc.

 

[Rafter S]

Please don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way, because what you've done has obviously worked well, and I'm happy for you. However, while "Follow your heart" might evoke happy visions of unicorns and rainbows, some people's hearts lead them to bad places. Like going $100,000 deep in student loan debt to get a liberal arts degree that will pay $30,000 per year. "Follow your heart" needs to be paired with good judgment.

Rafter I hate to disagree with you on this but you are wrong. A barista at Starbucks only makes around around $19,000/year assuming they are allowed to work a 40 hour week and don't take time off to go to marches to demonstrate how unfair the system is and we both know they can't help themselves on that one.

I'm confused. What do you disagree with? Are you saying they went the $100,000 in debt to make $19,000, not $30,000? If so, I stand corrected (although there might be a few making more than a barista at Starbucks).

 

[Rafter S]

What is profit? More properly stated: Is profit being properly calculated?

Who on here puts a value on their labor? To properly determine profit you must value your labor. If you are capable of making $30 an hour welding, then you need to ask yourself if you can afford to make $10 an hour working a cattle operation and lose $20 an hour in the process.

That's assuming you're taking hours away from welding to work cattle. That might not be the case.

 

[Bright Raven]

What is profit? More properly stated: Is profit being properly calculated?

Who on here puts a value on their labor? To properly determine profit you must value your labor. If you are capable of making $30 an hour welding, then you need to ask yourself if you can afford to make $10 an hour working a cattle operation and lose $20 an hour in the process.

That's assuming you're taking hours away from welding to work cattle. That might not be the case.

If a producer can make $30 an hour welding and he choses to use that time producing beef at a rate of $10 an hour, that is an expense. In the example, using his hours as a beef producer is costing $20 an hour. You are correct, if he is welding 40 hours a week and working cattle on his off time at $10 an hour, it is a CHOICE. However, he could work 60 hours a week as a welder instead of working cattle. It is a worthwhile exercise to place a value on your labor to determine what you are losing. If there is no passion for one job over the other, which is the topic of the thread, then why not make the most money?

 

[Jogeephus]

Please don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way, because what you've done has obviously worked well, and I'm happy for you. However, while "Follow your heart" might evoke happy visions of unicorns and rainbows, some people's hearts lead them to bad places. Like going $100,000 deep in student loan debt to get a liberal arts degree that will pay $30,000 per year. "Follow your heart" needs to be paired with good judgment.

Rafter I hate to disagree with you on this but you are wrong. A barista at Starbucks only makes around around $19,000/year assuming they are allowed to work a 40 hour week and don't take time off to go to marches to demonstrate how unfair the system is and we both know they can't help themselves on that one.

I'm confused. What do you disagree with? Are you saying they went the $100,000 in debt to make $19,000, not $30,000? If so, I stand corrected (although there might be a few making more than a barista at Starbucks).

I just think you are painting to rosy of a picture when you say a liberal arts major is going to make $30,000. Would you pay one that much? I wouldn't and think the barista's pay would most likely be the peak of their earning potential.

My son has a friend who has his masters in some liberal art and he is pushing 30 years old and still living in his mother's basement so yeah I think you are pushing it. For further proof, take my cousin. He is pushing 60 years old has several liberal arts degrees and is now working on his masters in medieval literature or something important like that and he still doesn't have a job. Never has. He doesn't have to repay his student loans till he graduates and starts working so I think he is banking on his social security check paying his loans off because this POS is never gonna work but he sure can philosophize.

 

[Bestoutwest]

My son has a friend who has his masters in some liberal art and he is pushing 30 years old and still living in his mother's basement so yeah I think you are pushing it. For further proof, take my cousin. He is pushing 60 years old has several liberal arts degrees and is now working on his masters in medieval literature or something important like that and he still doesn't have a job. Never has. He doesn't have to repay his student loans till he graduates and starts working so I think he is banking on his social security check paying his loans off because this POS is never gonna work but he sure can philosophize.

There are a lot of people that go to liberal arts colleges that walk out with useful degrees. The person your referencing is a loser, plain and simple. Not all people that go to liberal arts colleges follow this path. And not all people who have multiple degrees work jobs that are at the poverty level, either. :bang:

 

[Rafter S]

Rafter I hate to disagree with you on this but you are wrong. A barista at Starbucks only makes around around $19,000/year assuming they are allowed to work a 40 hour week and don't take time off to go to marches to demonstrate how unfair the system is and we both know they can't help themselves on that one.

I'm confused. What do you disagree with? Are you saying they went the $100,000 in debt to make $19,000, not $30,000? If so, I stand corrected (although there might be a few making more than a barista at Starbucks).

I just think you are painting to rosy of a picture when you say a liberal arts major is going to make $30,000. Would you pay one that much? I wouldn't and think the barista's pay would most likely be the peak of their earning potential.

My son has a friend who has his masters in some liberal art and he is pushing 30 years old and still living in his mother's basement so yeah I think you are pushing it. For further proof, take my cousin. He is pushing 60 years old has several liberal arts degrees and is now working on his masters in medieval literature or something important like that and he still doesn't have a job. Never has. He doesn't have to repay his student loans till he graduates and starts working so I think he is banking on his social security check paying his loans off because this POS is never gonna work but he sure can philosophize.

I know that not all liberal arts majors will make $30,000. Some will make more and some will make less. I often seem to hear people call into financial talk radio who've graduated from college and are now working as a social worker making about that much. That's what I had in mind.

 

[Jogeephus]

I know that not all liberal arts majors will make $30,000. Some will make more and some will make less. I often seem to hear people call into financial talk radio who've graduated from college and are now working as a social worker making about that much. That's what I had in mind.

Yeah, your are right. The government is probably the biggest employer of people with liberal arts degrees but not everyone can work for the government. Some have to produce and be taxed to give these good folks employment so they won't be viewed as deadbeats.

 

[Bright Raven]

The cattle producer suffers from the same ailment that afflicts our entire economy: The rewards for our labor are under-valued. We all see it. Go to Wal-Mart and buy 5 items. For example, buy a bottle or Metamucil. $30. Buy a frozen bag of cooked scrimp. $20. Buy a large bottle of laundry soap. $25. Buy an Angus Choice rib steak. $12. Buy a pack of AA batteries. $15. Total $102. If that steak was priced in accordance with the labor and inputs it cost to produce it, it would cost as much as the Metamucil. The profit on that Metamucil is probably over 20%. The steak was produced out of PASSION for the vocation.

 

[Bright Raven]

This says it all:

https://youtu.be/DCmR9981v9E

 

[bball]

A barista making 19K??? That's laughable...some of them make as much or more than a stripper! People love to overpay for coffee and tip very well for it too.

Raven- your posts ring true. If people actually accounted for the hours of labor, there would be no profit I suspect..especially on 100$ margins per head...if your running a tight ship..tbis has been a very enlightening topic with very interesting points

 

[Jogeephus]

My son has a friend who has his masters in some liberal art and he is pushing 30 years old and still living in his mother's basement so yeah I think you are pushing it. For further proof, take my cousin. He is pushing 60 years old has several liberal arts degrees and is now working on his masters in medieval literature or something important like that and he still doesn't have a job. Never has. He doesn't have to repay his student loans till he graduates and starts working so I think he is banking on his social security check paying his loans off because this POS is never gonna work but he sure can philosophize.

There are a lot of people that go to liberal arts colleges that walk out with useful degrees. The person your referencing is a loser, plain and simple. Not all people that go to liberal arts colleges follow this path. And not all people who have multiple degrees work jobs that are at the poverty level, either. :bang:

I agree and admit I am painting unfairly with a broad brush its just that these two are so vocal I can't help but think of them when I think of liberal arts degrees.

 

[Son of Butch]

A barista making 19K??? That's laughable...some of them make as much or more than a stripper!
People love to overpay for coffee and tip very well for it too.

Raven- your posts ring true.
If people actually accounted for the hours of labor, there would be no profit I suspect..especially on 100$ margins
per head...if your running a tight ship..this has been a very enlightening topic with very interesting points

This thread caused me to do some fact checking.
Nationwide Starbuck baristas including tips earn on average $21,700 (tips vary widely from location to location)
surprisingly low given their reported high level of job satisfaction, due in part to Starbucks above average benefit
package which includes medical insurance and tuition reimbursement. Store managers average $45,000

College graduates with liberal arts degrees average 1.7 million career earnings or $56,660 per year with peak year
earnings of $66,180 and 11% lower than the average college graduate, but still well above the national average.

Raven - logic rarely applies as only 10% of population runs on logic with fully 1/3 of all people doing what they want
and then rationalizing their decisions/choices/actions as logical later on.

 

[boondocks]

Ditto. Last Sept Creekstone Premium Beef brought out Tupelo Honey Cafe (one of their biggest customers) to see our herd, "play" with the cows/calves for a marketing photo shoot because they're all about farm-to-table/humane treatment. The Kansas State Extension brought out a group from Tenn. Ext Dept a couple months ago and last week Creekstone brought out a huge group of (primarily) chefs from Mexico for another farm-to-table photo shoot. I don't have a registered herd, just 50 happy, docile cows that raise nice calves and evidently look good in pictures

Edit: this was supposed to be in response to Nesi & Boondocks post. Operator error.

I love the idea of making a living off "model" cows. Not ideal cows--cows that model! :lol: I'll all for whatever it takes! It's a hard biz.

 

[boondocks]

No. It's poor business. If you consistently create an inferior product it degrades the value of the better animals when they are produced. Flooding the market with mediocre animals also lowers price overall. I've seen a lot of bulls lately that quite honestly would have been more profitable if they had been cut at weaning and sold as a steer and that would have the added benefit of boosting price on the quality bulls by tightening supply.

This is a good example of leaving money on the table. You're not making as much as you should for commercial cattle but not making as much as you should with registered stock either. If I'm going to have a cow that is more than 75% of any breed she's going to be a purebred with papers and will be marketed as seedstock. If I don't thinks she's seedstock material she gets crossbred until she replaces herself and then goes away because I don't want a purebred cow on the place unless I can capitalize on it. For someone with your size herd(no disrespect intended) the decision to crossbreed is worth a couple hundred dollars. For me it's worth thousands. For someone like js1234 it's worth hundreds of thousands. Small decisions add up very quickly but the smaller herds tend to not see that.

Well, I guess I would hopefully demur that small breeders necessarily produce an inferior product. Personally we try not to leave money on the table, but I do agree there are different economies of scale. We do try hard to breed good quality animals, and have the benefit of a herd consultant. So, do I do a Jack Welch-style ranking and, of 3 nice heifers, cull one "just because" someone's gotta go? No. But we have culled for difficulty breeding, and would certainly cull for disposition, lack of good mothering, poor conformation, udder, milk, consistently dinky calves, or feet that don't hold up (for example).
In terms of cross-breeding, I do understand hybrid vigor and all, but no one's gonna pay me more for crossbreeding either. We are not exactly in big ranch country up here. There are lots of small family farms, very few big operations. It's a bit catch-as-catch can, is the best way to put it I guess....

 

[Bright Raven]

A barista making 19K??? That's laughable...some of them make as much or more than a stripper!
People love to overpay for coffee and tip very well for it too.

Raven- your posts ring true.
If people actually accounted for the hours of labor, there would be no profit I suspect..especially on 100$ margins
per head...if your running a tight ship..this has been a very enlightening topic with very interesting points

This thread caused me to do some fact checking.
Nationwide Starbuck baristas including tips earn on average $21,700 (tips vary widely from location to location)
surprisingly low given their reported high level of job satisfaction, due in part to Starbucks above average benefit
package which includes medical insurance and tuition reimbursement. Store managers average $45,000

College graduates with liberal arts degrees average 1.7 million career earnings or $56,660 per year with peak year
earnings of $66,180 and 11% lower than the average college graduate, but still well above the national average.

Raven - logic rarely applies as only 10% of population runs on logic with fully 1/3 of all people doing what they want
and then rationalizing their decisions/choices/actions as logical later on.

Yep. That's the rule, been guilty myself. But not in the case of cattle. My choices were made in full knowledge that I was entering the vocation at my own pleasure.

 

[bball]

A barista making 19K??? That's laughable...some of them make as much or more than a stripper!
People love to overpay for coffee and tip very well for it too.

Raven- your posts ring true.
If people actually accounted for the hours of labor, there would be no profit I suspect..especially on 100$ margins
per head...if your running a tight ship..this has been a very enlightening topic with very interesting points

This thread caused me to do some fact checking.
Nationwide Starbuck baristas including tips earn on average $21,700 (tips vary widely from location to location)
surprisingly low given their reported high level of job satisfaction, due in part to Starbucks above average benefit
package which includes medical insurance and tuition reimbursement. Store managers average $45,000

College graduates with liberal arts degrees average 1.7 million career earnings or $56,660 per year with peak year
earnings of $66,180 and 11% lower than the average college graduate, but still well above the national average.

Raven - logic rarely applies as only 10% of population runs on logic with fully 1/3 of all people doing what they want
and then rationalizing their decisions/choices/actions as logical later on.

Surprisingly low average Butch. I'm shocked. Permit me a personal example: a bright young lady I work with graduated college recently to the tune of over 60k in debt. She has a sister who is employed as a barista in one of the elite suburbs of Indy, who also really enjoys rubbing her siblings nose in the fact that she serves coffee for an annual income in the 80k range while her sister accrued debt to wipe people's butts! She lives in a lovely townhouse in the city while her sis lives with mom and dad. Now I wonder if she reports all that income?

 

[Bright Raven]

i bought my heard in '12 then sold 80% of them in '15. I made about 80k profit off of that move.

Lots of money to be made.

In theory, couldn't we all sell out, and generate revenue, and make some good money.

You are dead on according to the county my place has a very high dollar evaluation. That is the old saying land rich but dirt poor .
It is nothing but an liability unless liquidated.
The only true asset you have today is what is in your bank account.

Are you defining a "true asset" as CASH? CB, you should buy an elementary book on economics. I mean that with my whole heart. You are misleading "would be" Rochefellers who will follow your advice to become Fredie The Freeloaders. You have already lead Bigfoot astray. :lol:

Cash assets depreciate. In fact, hard assets are a hedge against depreciation and inflation. Currencies are depreciating in almost every country in the world. I agree, there are cases when "cash is King" but all the "wealth builders" built their empires on hard assets.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Money can be made on the right cows in the right place, but don't tell the government I said that.

Canadian Brahman? ;-)

More seriously - - the local FINBIN data dogs do show some decent profits for top 20% of commodity producers. If you look at their numbers they do a lot of things well. Expenses are a little lower, calf production is a little higher, selling price is a little better, it all adds up. Seems to be a combination of scale and management.

For the average operator these same data dogs are pushing some kind of retained ownership. Last year they reported + U$S 182 net for back grounding. What they are not mentioning is there has been a nice price rally the last couple years from an October low to January. :nod: What are the odds of a repeat?

 

[Caustic Burno]

In theory, couldn't we all sell out, and generate revenue, and make some good money.

You are dead on according to the county my place has a very high dollar evaluation. That is the old saying land rich but dirt poor .
It is nothing but an liability unless liquidated.
The only true asset you have today is what is in your bank account.

Are you defining a "true asset" as CASH? CB, you should buy an elementary book on economics. I mean that with my whole heart. You are misleading "would be" Rochefellers who will follow your advice to become Fredie The Freeloaders. You have already lead Bigfoot astray. :lol:

Cash assets depreciate. In fact, hard assets are a hedge against depreciation and inflation. Currencies are depreciating in almost every country in the world. I agree, there are cases when "cash is King" but all the "wealth builders" built their empires on hard assets.

All assets are acquired by cash and are converted to cash. Doesn't matter when bought, sold, used as collateral it only has the present day dollar value when sold until then it is a liability that has to be maintained
Gold has no more purchase power today than twenty years ago neither does land all floats on the value of a dollar