Cattle Passion/Money

[melking]

I have been in several businesses over the years and in my opinion every business requires the exact same circumstances. You can possibly make a little money by staying small. You can probably break even by going to medium size, but you will only get rich on volume. Don't matter what you sell.

 

[cow pollinater]

Yes, cattle can be very profitable. The problem is that most cattle owners are not business minded cattlemen. Look at all the "breeders" on here with fifty head that sell everything as seedstock because it has a set of papers. Look at all the people that buy those bulls. Look at all the posts that say "call the vet" over stuff that anyone that has been dealing with cattle very long should know about. Look at all the fat fed up bulls people put up in pictures. Those folks don't have anyone to blame but themselves when they don't make money.
Yes, there is money in cattle the same way that there is money in any business but not everyone can make this business work for them. The same could be said about food service or trucking companies, etc but at the end of the day if you're not making a profit it's your fault... Sure there are losing years but in the long run it's profitable for some of us or we wouldn't do it.
As for myself, I'd probably have a few elite cows floating around even if they broke even but I'm about as passionate as it gets about cattle and I still demand that they at least pay their own way.

 

[boondocks]

Yes, cattle can be very profitable. The problem is that most cattle owners are not business minded cattlemen. Look at all the "breeders" on here with fifty head that sell everything as seedstock because it has a set of papers. Look at all the people that buy those bulls. Look at all the posts that say "call the vet" over stuff that anyone that has been dealing with cattle very long should know about. Look at all the fat fed up bulls people put up in pictures. Those folks don't have anyone to blame but themselves when they don't make money.
Yes, there is money in cattle the same way that there is money in any business but not everyone can make this business work for them. The same could be said about food service or trucking companies, etc but at the end of the day if you're not making a profit it's your fault... Sure there are losing years but in the long run it's profitable for some of us or we wouldn't do it.
As for myself, I'd probably have a few elite cows floating around even if they broke even but I'm about as passionate as it gets about cattle and I still demand that they at least pay their own way.

CP, I'd like to understand better what it is you're saying. You seem to criticize owners of small registered herds (admittedly I'm one) for selling seedstock as long it is has papers. Is it your argument that that is bad for the individual's business? If so, how would the owner be a better businessperson (NOT breeder per se) if s/he culled harder? Isn't your argument really that that's a poor breeder, not necessarily a poor businessperson? After all, we have a lot of debates on here about "the greater good" (not overtreating with antibiotics; not knowingly taking contagious animals to sale barn, etc). So I'm trying to understand whether you're saying an individual breeder would have more PROFIT if s/he culled harder, or would be a more respectable breeder?
As for what we're doing, we do have registered stock but primarily as a way to track lineage etc, and because we like the breed. I don't "buy into" (literally or figuratively) the popularity contest aspects of it. We don't generally get a huge bump for being registered, and we sell to whoever likes the animal. Ideally I would probably sell to mostly commercial folks looking for good stock. But a good many around here don't want to pay for good vaccinated stock from a closed herd. They'd rather roll the dice on a sale barn "find." I guess to some extent I consider our herd to be a nice (I hope) small herd that happens to be registered.

 

[Nesikep]

CP, one thing I certainly haven't been able to make pencil out are lick tubs... at about $1/lb around here I just can't make it work.. I get one a year for my weaned replacement heifers because any leg up they can get when young will make them a better cow.. if she weans just a 5% heavier calf because she was raised better and does that for 10 or more years, that's where I make the dividends.. but on a direct weight gain it's hopeless.. it took 4 heifer calves only 3 months to eat a 220 lb tub... I couldn't fathom feeding it to cows. Expensive way to buy a bucket!

For small operations, I also can't see how you can make any new tractor pencil out.. spending 20-30K on a single item will eat up every bit of profit from the herd for decades, and don't get me started on how people can make payments on $60K trucks either... Of course there are some cases where the goal is to have the cows lose money as a tax writeoff.. that certainly doesn't take much effort

Boondocks.. I'm just working on building a "nice" herd that won't be registered.. I've been told by a few people that they were really impressed with the herd.. One guy (not a cattle person) said they were the nicest bunch he's ever seen.. OK, I know that doesn't mean much for the quality, but cattle that are nice to look at is one of my goals, and if other people see my effort, it is a nice pat on the back

 

[boondocks]

...

Boondocks.. I'm just working on building a "nice" herd that won't be registered.. I've been told by a few people that they were really impressed with the herd.. One guy (not a cattle person) said they were the nicest bunch he's ever seen.. OK, I know that doesn't mean much for the quality, but cattle that are nice to look at is one of my goals, and if other people see my effort, it is a nice pat on the back

Agree! Starting just a few years ago, and trying to constantly improve on our genetics without breeding out our good traits...it has been nice to have more seasoned eyes giving us some positive comments (in person and online). Have learned a lot and what I don't know still greatly outweighs what I do know!

 

[Nesikep]

Yes, that definitely helps, as well as just looking at 100's of cows and picking what you like and don't like about them.. I find it hard to go by pictures.. glaring problems will always be easy to spot, but smaller ones not so much, and the same goes for the good traits

 

[Supa Dexta]

The poverty level requirement in the US is 12,000 dollars. Making 100/head profit means you need a herd approaching 140 cows, to sell 120 calves a year to reach the poverty level threshold.

 

[dieselbeef]

The poverty level requirement in the US is 12,000 dollars. Making 100/head profit means you need a herd approaching 140 cows, to sell 120 calves a year to reach the poverty level threshold.

but not to make a profit.....

 

[ddd75]

almost every idea i've had that i've asked people about.. "OH NO.. you won't make any money with that"
I started buying rental property at 21. Everyone "OH...OH!!! You'll learn!!! you'll see!!! hahhah.. yea.. The only thing I see is checks everyday in my mailbox that I drive my brand new kubota utv down my 1/2 mile lane to get.

pretty much everyones 'advice' is to get a job.. work at some factory or office.. gotta have that job. only way.


well I went against everyones 'advice' and I'm extremely successful and I started working for myself @ 23 years old. Since then everyday I do whatever I want. While everyone else is working I can sit on the front porch and drink beer if I want. I don't even know what day it is unless my wife tells me.

Moral of the story? Listen to your heart and head. not what someone else says...

 

[TCRanch]

Ditto. Last Sept Creekstone Premium Beef brought out Tupelo Honey Cafe (one of their biggest customers) to see our herd, "play" with the cows/calves for a marketing photo shoot because they're all about farm-to-table/humane treatment. The Kansas State Extension brought out a group from Tenn. Ext Dept a couple months ago and last week Creekstone brought out a huge group of (primarily) chefs from Mexico for another farm-to-table photo shoot. I don't have a registered herd, just 50 happy, docile cows that raise nice calves and evidently look good in pictures :)

 

[TCRanch]

Ditto. Last Sept Creekstone Premium Beef brought out Tupelo Honey Cafe (one of their biggest customers) to see our herd, "play" with the cows/calves for a marketing photo shoot because they're all about farm-to-table/humane treatment. The Kansas State Extension brought out a group from Tenn. Ext Dept a couple months ago and last week Creekstone brought out a huge group of (primarily) chefs from Mexico for another farm-to-table photo shoot. I don't have a registered herd, just 50 happy, docile cows that raise nice calves and evidently look good in pictures :)

Edit: this was supposed to be in response to Nesi & Boondocks post. Operator error.

 

[Rafter S]

almost every idea i've had that i've asked people about.. "OH NO.. you won't make any money with that"
I started buying rental property at 21. Everyone "OH...OH!!! You'll learn!!! you'll see!!! hahhah.. yea.. The only thing I see is checks everyday in my mailbox that I drive my brand new kubota utv down my 1/2 mile lane to get.

pretty much everyones 'advice' is to get a job.. work at some factory or office.. gotta have that job. only way.


well I went against everyones 'advice' and I'm extremely successful and I started working for myself @ 23 years old. Since then everyday I do whatever I want. While everyone else is working I can sit on the front porch and drink beer if I want. I don't even know what day it is unless my wife tells me.

Moral of the story? Listen to your heart and head. not what someone else says...

Please don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way, because what you've done has obviously worked well, and I'm happy for you. However, while "Follow your heart" might evoke happy visions of unicorns and rainbows, some people's hearts lead them to bad places. Like going $100,000 deep in student loan debt to get a liberal arts degree that will pay $30,000 per year. "Follow your heart" needs to be paired with good judgment.

 

[Farm Fence Solutions]

almost every idea i've had that i've asked people about.. "OH NO.. you won't make any money with that"
I started buying rental property at 21. Everyone "OH...OH!!! You'll learn!!! you'll see!!! hahhah.. yea.. The only thing I see is checks everyday in my mailbox that I drive my brand new kubota utv down my 1/2 mile lane to get.

pretty much everyones 'advice' is to get a job.. work at some factory or office.. gotta have that job. only way.


well I went against everyones 'advice' and I'm extremely successful and I started working for myself @ 23 years old. Since then everyday I do whatever I want. While everyone else is working I can sit on the front porch and drink beer if I want. I don't even know what day it is unless my wife tells me.

Moral of the story? Listen to your heart and head. not what someone else says...

You could get to that mailbox money a whole lot quicker with a RZR instead of the Kubota. :lol: Everyone is wired a little different I suppose. I never was wired to work for someone else, and I glad of it. I got into the rental discussion with a neighbor of mine.... His big argument against rental property was clogged crappers and no pays. He has one of the larger herds around, so I likened those to vet bills and heifers that died while calving. It still didn't make any sense to him. He's the one that told me I'd never make a living in the fence business. I like living outside the box, but I'm glad most folks don't.

 

[shaz]

almost every idea i've had that i've asked people about.. "OH NO.. you won't make any money with that"
I started buying rental property at 21. Everyone "OH...OH!!! You'll learn!!! you'll see!!! hahhah.. yea.. The only thing I see is checks everyday in my mailbox that I drive my brand new kubota utv down my 1/2 mile lane to get.

pretty much everyones 'advice' is to get a job.. work at some factory or office.. gotta have that job. only way.


well I went against everyones 'advice' and I'm extremely successful and I started working for myself @ 23 years old. Since then everyday I do whatever I want. While everyone else is working I can sit on the front porch and drink beer if I want. I don't even know what day it is unless my wife tells me.

Moral of the story? Listen to your heart and head. not what someone else says...

Please don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way, because what you've done has obviously worked well, and I'm happy for you. However, while "Follow your heart" might evoke happy visions of unicorns and rainbows, some people's hearts lead them to bad places. Like going $100,000 deep in student loan debt to get a liberal arts degree that will pay $30,000 per year. "Follow your heart" needs to be paired with good judgment.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[cow pollinater]

CP, I'd like to understand better what it is you're saying. You seem to criticize owners of small registered herds (admittedly I'm one) for selling seedstock as long it is has papers. Is it your argument that that is bad for the individual's business? If so, how would the owner be a better businessperson (NOT breeder per se) if s/he culled harder? Isn't your argument really that that's a poor breeder, not necessarily a poor businessperson? After all, we have a lot of debates on here about "the greater good" (not overtreating with antibiotics; not knowingly taking contagious animals to sale barn, etc). So I'm trying to understand whether you're saying an individual breeder would have more PROFIT if s/he culled harder, or would be a more respectable breeder?

No. It's poor business. If you consistently create an inferior product it degrades the value of the better animals when they are produced. Flooding the market with mediocre animals also lowers price overall. I've seen a lot of bulls lately that quite honestly would have been more profitable if they had been cut at weaning and sold as a steer and that would have the added benefit of boosting price on the quality bulls by tightening supply.

As for what we're doing, we do have registered stock but primarily as a way to track lineage etc, and because we like the breed. I don't "buy into" (literally or figuratively) the popularity contest aspects of it. We don't generally get a huge bump for being registered, and we sell to whoever likes the animal. Ideally I would probably sell to mostly commercial folks looking for good stock. But a good many around here don't want to pay for good vaccinated stock from a closed herd. They'd rather roll the dice on a sale barn "find." I guess to some extent I consider our herd to be a nice (I hope) small herd that happens to be registered.

This is a good example of leaving money on the table. You're not making as much as you should for commercial cattle but not making as much as you should with registered stock either. If I'm going to have a cow that is more than 75% of any breed she's going to be a purebred with papers and will be marketed as seedstock. If I don't thinks she's seedstock material she gets crossbred until she replaces herself and then goes away because I don't want a purebred cow on the place unless I can capitalize on it. For someone with your size herd(no disrespect intended) the decision to crossbreed is worth a couple hundred dollars. For me it's worth thousands. For someone like js1234 it's worth hundreds of thousands. Small decisions add up very quickly but the smaller herds tend to not see that.

 

[Bestoutwest]

For me, it's equipment. I just can't make it work to spend all that money for something that I don't need. Everyone at work always asks when I'm going to get this, and when I'm going to get that. Well, none of that stuff is free. I buy what I need, when I need it and go from there. There's a guy that's down the road from me with a little Kubota. He has a raker attachment and a baler. He probably hays 4 acres, and for what? They have two horses. If he'd throw a couple calves out there he'd make more money. There's another guy that hays probably 7 acres. He has a super small swather, and a raker and baler (which break down periodically b/c he leaves them in the field where they died). It would have been so much more profitable for those guys to buy hay and stock more animals. That's where I try to learn, from others doing things and by not just jumping off on something without thinking and thinking about it and doing the math on it at least twice.

I get the romanticism of living in the country and having a few head, heck, that's where I'm at with this. But for me, I'm not going to throw my entire retirement and be completely strapped for cash b/c of it.

 

[bball]

To make a profit you must learn to move in opposition of the current market situation.

Such a truthful statement. And very difficult to do, even when you know you should.

 

[M-5]

How much does it cost to raise a kid?? Why would you ever have kids if they are not profitable? As far fetched as that sounds it's a valid question. Some people can make money with small herds but the reward does not always come in Benjamin's .

 

[Jogeephus]

Please don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way, because what you've done has obviously worked well, and I'm happy for you. However, while "Follow your heart" might evoke happy visions of unicorns and rainbows, some people's hearts lead them to bad places. Like going $100,000 deep in student loan debt to get a liberal arts degree that will pay $30,000 per year. "Follow your heart" needs to be paired with good judgment.

Rafter I hate to disagree with you on this but you are wrong. A barista at Starbucks only makes around around $19,000/year assuming they are allowed to work a 40 hour week and don't take time off to go to marches to demonstrate how unfair the system is and we both know they can't help themselves on that one.

 

[Nesikep]

Horses... glad someone brought up those things that lose money hand over fist, except for a select few that are well trained working animals, most of them are just yard art and status symbols!

ddd, I think you did well by following your heart, but I think you carefully analyzed things at each step, and that paid off... I'd have loved to be all sorts of things, but the likelihood of ever doing anything but lose money at them was very slim... drag racing, photography, etc.. they're better hobbies than careers!