Cattle changes

[Ky hills]

I've never understood how the show circuit influences how breeders define perfection in animals. It's the same for registered dogs and other animals. The judges have some kind of weird image of what they are looking for and they trade information and land on some kind of flawed "new" concept, and then the breeders toe the line so they can win ribbons and sell breeding stock that supposed to be the "new thing". In the meantime a lot of commercially oriented people follow along and are destroyed if the concept isn't economically productive. Meanwhile the people that only concentrate on what the packers want are derided for having "old style" cattle but they are selling their animals just fine for good prices.

Yeah, there's a lot of moving parts that should work together but they don't.
There's a big disconnect between a lot of the show scene and the breeding pasture, then there's a difference in what the feeders and packers want vs what works the best for the cow/calf producers.

 

[Travlr]

Yeah, there's a lot of moving parts that should work together but they don't.
There's a big disconnect between a lot of the show scene and the breeding pasture, then there's a difference in what the feeders and packers want vs what works the best for the cow/calf producers.

Yeah... Personally if I had my druthers I'd be using 11/1200 pound cows weighted toward the smaller end. But then I like to butcher my freezer beef at 1000# or less.

 

[simme]

The idea that breeders follow the show ring and produce cattle based on show results - I have not done any research on that topic, but suspect that the big operations producing lots of bulls do not show and are not much influenced by the show ring. In the simmental world, that sure seems to be the case. At the shows, I think most exhibitors are smaller producers with many being from the junior side or marketing to the junior side. Selecting a breeding bull based on show results? Too much politics and feed involved for that to be a good strategy. May be different in other breeds. On the angus side, do those big bull producers show cattle or use show bulls?

 

[Ky hills]

The idea that breeders follow the show ring and produce cattle based on show results - I have not done any research on that topic, but suspect that the big operations producing lots of bulls do not show and are not much influenced by the show ring. In the simmental world, that sure seems to be the case. At the shows, I think most exhibitors are smaller producers with many being from the junior side or marketing to the junior side. Selecting a breeding bull based on show results? Too much politics and feed involved for that to be a good strategy. May be different in other breeds. On the angus side, do those big bull producers show cattle or use show bulls?

Different breeds have different values on showing. My experience with Charolais many years ago was that a lot of folks did follow the big shows and some pretty sizable breeders were in to that scene.
The thing that I loved about Angus was that the show scene was just a small part of the breed and seemed liked majority of the breeders didn't pay any attention to it. I found that Angus have other things going on just as distracting as the show ring.
Herefords especially the pollled Herefords are like the Charolais they are very big into show cattle.
Disclaimer, I'm not running down showing as in children and youth showing. I think that is an absolutely great activity, and I wholeheartedly support the concept.
I also don't mind registered breeders showing their cattle as a means to showcase and display their animals. Can be a great way to advertise and get name recognition.
My issues with showing are when breeders specifically choose and mate animals for the showring with no consideration for the real world.
Too many of the show cattle from many breeds that I have seen will not milk enough to raise a calf, or have very minimal maternal instincts, yet they possess the qualities that will win shows.

 

[wbvs58]

The idea that breeders follow the show ring and produce cattle based on show results - I have not done any research on that topic, but suspect that the big operations producing lots of bulls do not show and are not much influenced by the show ring. In the simmental world, that sure seems to be the case. At the shows, I think most exhibitors are smaller producers with many being from the junior side or marketing to the junior side. Selecting a breeding bull based on show results? Too much politics and feed involved for that to be a good strategy. May be different in other breeds. On the angus side, do those big bull producers show cattle or use show bulls?

From where I am, showing seems to be a completely separate entity to seedstock bull producers. It certainly doesn't seem to be a successful marketing strategy for bulls. All the big bull prices go to herds that are perceived to be commercially relevant and the top price honors seem to be shared between big commercial operations buying for big AI programs in their herd or syndicates of seedstock producers.

Ken

 

[Travlr]

Different breeds have different values on showing. My experience with Charolais many years ago was that a lot of folks did follow the big shows and some pretty sizable breeders were in to that scene.
The thing that I loved about Angus was that the show scene was just a small part of the breed and seemed liked majority of the breeders didn't pay any attention to it. I found that Angus have other things going on just as distracting as the show ring.
Herefords especially the pollled Herefords are like the Charolais they are very big into show cattle.
Disclaimer, I'm not running down showing as in children and youth showing. I think that is an absolutely great activity, and I wholeheartedly support the concept.
I also don't mind registered breeders showing their cattle as a means to showcase and display their animals. Can be a great way to advertise and get name recognition.
My issues with showing are when breeders specifically choose and mate animals for the showring with no consideration for the real world.
Too many of the show cattle from many breeds that I have seen will not milk enough to raise a calf, or have very minimal maternal instincts, yet they possess the qualities that will win shows.

And regardless of whether breeders are showing, they are influenced. Some more, some less. The show ring can change conversations and goals.

And I just don't understand why the show judges aren't making their decisions based on real world economics.

I have to say that @Jeanne - Simme Valley winning seems to go against what I'm saying. Her cattle are exactly the kind of animals I would expect to be in demand in the real world and they are winning. But in past years there have been some pretty inefficient winners.

 

[Ky hills]

And regardless of whether breeders are showing, they are influenced. Some more, some less. The show ring can change conversations and goals.

And I just don't understand why the show judges aren't making their decisions based on real world economics.

I have to say that @Jeanne - Simme Valley winning seems to go against what I'm saying. Her cattle are exactly the kind of animals I would expect to be in demand in the real world and they are winning. But in past years there have been some pretty inefficient winners.

There are breeders that show like @Jeanne - Simme Valley and a Hereford breeder here fairly locally that have top end herds.
Going back 30 years ago some of the show line emphasis left a bad taste in a lot of folks mouth associated with Charolais.
A sales promoter was looking through my herd to find something for a consignment, and I told him what a certain cow was out of, I thought he might like it, he said we don't want that everybody has some of them that they are trying to get rid of, just a few years before they couldn't say enough good about them.
There was one line in particular that dominated the biggest shows for several years, those things if bred to a Holstein would sire daughters that wouldn't breed very regularly and if by chance they did have a calf they wouldn't milk at all.
I started out with a set of heifers that were granddaughters of a bull known to sire good females, but the promoters urged me to go different directions as they thought we needed more flashy name cattle. Man were they ever wrong and me stupid for listening.
Angus don't seem to put the emphasis on showing there are some herds that are known to show and I wouldn't touch them period just in the small frame cattle aspect. I don't know why Angus are trending back to small frame. I think they could maintain good fleshing and milk in upper 5 and 6 frame cattle easily.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I don't see the Simmental breeders breeding for smaller cattle. Obviously, I don't!! LOL
But, when we show, we show against some major big cattle. "Some" "may" be a little older than what their papers say, so that "may" help in their size.
Bottom line, I breed for easy keeping females. But, I have great forage and have the ability to have great hay made on my land, so I have BIG cattle. Not tall like I used to have. Heck, I had some in the 9 frame. Mine now are most all 6's. Probably have a few 7's and a few 5's. But, ALL, easily can fit a 50 gal drum inside of them!! They are tanks.

I can remember when the Angus association had ads against the "Elephant breed" (Simmentals). Then, the next year at the state fair, they had bulls bigger than any Simmental bull shown. They quickly dropped those ads the next year.

I am a very small fish in the "real" show world. We were out of our class at Louisville. Owners were NOT working on their show string. LOL

 

[wbvs58]

There are breeders that show like @Jeanne - Simme Valley and a Hereford breeder here fairly locally that have top end herds.
Going back 30 years ago some of the show line emphasis left a bad taste in a lot of folks mouth associated with Charolais.
A sales promoter was looking through my herd to find something for a consignment, and I told him what a certain cow was out of, I thought he might like it, he said we don't want that everybody has some of them that they are trying to get rid of, just a few years before they couldn't say enough good about them.
There was one line in particular that dominated the biggest shows for several years, those things if bred to a Holstein would sire daughters that wouldn't breed very regularly and if by chance they did have a calf they wouldn't milk at all.
I started out with a set of heifers that were granddaughters of a bull known to sire good females, but the promoters urged me to go different directions as they thought we needed more flashy name cattle. Man were they ever wrong and me stupid for listening.
Angus don't seem to put the emphasis on showing there are some herds that are known to show and I wouldn't touch them period just in the small frame cattle aspect. I don't know why Angus are trending back to small frame. I think they could maintain good fleshing and milk in upper 5 and 6 frame cattle easily.

I'll give you a little hand KY, I just picked up my latest ABS catalogue and while not all bulls have their frame score listed I would say 3/4 have. Maybe these that have not listed FS are these midgets that you are referring to however some of these are Australian bulls and from their breeding and EBV's I would expect them to be over the FS6 mark. I'll list the ones that have their FS.
Millah Murrah Paratrooper FS6.8
Spickler Right Time FS6.1
Rissington Sovereign FS5
BJ Surpass FS6.3
Landfall New Ground FS6.5
Sitz Dignity FS6.2
Sitz Resilient FS6.4
Sitz Stellar FS6.2
Baldridge Command FS6
Sitz Tailor Made FS6.6
Banquet Quarter Pounder FS6.5
Millah Murrah Quixote FS6
Tehamo Patriarch FS5.6
BCF Jet Stream FS6
Square B True North FS6
Basin Jameson FS6.2
LAR Man in Black FS6.5
Clunie Range Queenslander FS6
Millah Murrah Kruse Time FS5.7
Ben Nevis Smokin Joe FS6
GB Fireball FS5+
Millah Murrah Kingdom FS6.4
Landfall Keystone FS7
Wilks No Substitute FS7.2
Sitz Milestone FS6.2

If you have trouble finding one there KY I'll look up some of my other catalogues for you.
FS 6 is my sweet spot.

Ken

 

[Ky hills]

I'll give you a little hand KY, I just picked up my latest ABS catalogue and while not all bulls have their frame score listed I would say 3/4 have. Maybe these that have not listed FS are these midgets that you are referring to however some of these are Australian bulls and from their breeding and EBV's I would expect them to be over the FS6 mark. I'll list the ones that have their FS.
Millah Murrah Paratrooper FS6.8
Spickler Right Time FS6.1
Rissington Sovereign FS5
BJ Surpass FS6.3
Landfall New Ground FS6.5
Sitz Dignity FS6.2
Sitz Resilient FS6.4
Sitz Stellar FS6.2
Baldridge Command FS6
Sitz Tailor Made FS6.6
Banquet Quarter Pounder FS6.5
Millah Murrah Quixote FS6
Tehamo Patriarch FS5.6
BCF Jet Stream FS6
Square B True North FS6
Basin Jameson FS6.2
LAR Man in Black FS6.5
Clunie Range Queenslander FS6
Millah Murrah Kruse Time FS5.7
Ben Nevis Smokin Joe FS6
GB Fireball FS5+
Millah Murrah Kingdom FS6.4
Landfall Keystone FS7
Wilks No Substitute FS7.2
Sitz Milestone FS6.2

If you have trouble finding one there KY I'll look up some of my other catalogues for you.
FS 6 is my sweet spot.

Ken

Yes there's quite a few there. I admit I haven't kept up with with the current bulls for while. Haven't AI'd any for about 10 years.
Several of those prefixes I'm not familiar with, maybe new or from there in Australia.
When I was looking the last time, ABS had only CC&7 that was a frame 7 and I really wanted to use him but there was bo semen available. I think I used a son Hoover Dam. He was possibly listed as a frame 6 I can't remember may have not been listed. His calves were real good but trended more towards the smaller side when mated to my cows. A finally found a daughter of CC&7 she was good but again took more after her dam I guess and her calves were similar.
We used a 6 frame BPF Special Focus on heifers that was a 6 frame and those calves were small, all along.
The last bull we used was PA Power Tool he was under 6 maybe 5.8 or something, couldn't find an available 6.
Good calves, liked them but we have trouble with getting good weaning weights and size, they mature at decent size and start to get looking better frame wise around yearlings. Maybe we just have defective cows.
At one point I had some 1800 pound registered Angus cows weaning off 450-500 Angus calves. By around 18 months the heifers were starting to look good and had some growth, the steers though when sold a little after weaning were small and always sold as fleshy.
When I crossed my cows with a larger framed Hereford or Limousin I got bigger framed calves that did better at weaning.
I realize you and lots of other folks use Angus and have some fine looking cattle that I would be mighty proud to have but for some reason mine always hit a low growth ceiling as calves through weaning. I don't have a logical answer for it.

 

[ClinchValley86]

I thought you liked them short and fat. Lol

Most definitely. I just can't help it. However... those are extreme for me. Frame of 5 ish I think is what I prefer.

 

[greybeard]

That's just crazy. They do look like pigs.

That's my maternal grandfather, probably late 40s or early 1950s. He died before I ever met him. The boar probably outlived him.

 

[Travlr]

View attachment 38336
That's my maternal grandfather, probably late 40s or early 1950s. He died before I ever met him. The boar probably outlived him.

Ya sure that's not one of those '40's show bulls?

 

[ClinchValley86]

Ya sure that's not one of those '40's show bulls?

Before I read his words, I thought it was indeed a 40's bull. Not been around many pigs though.

 

[Richnm]

Yes there's quite a few there. I admit I haven't kept up with with the current bulls for while. Haven't AI'd any for about 10 years.
Several of those prefixes I'm not familiar with, maybe new or from there in Australia.
When I was looking the last time, ABS had only CC&7 that was a frame 7 and I really wanted to use him but there was bo semen available. I think I used a son Hoover Dam. He was possibly listed as a frame 6 I can't remember may have not been listed. His calves were real good but trended more towards the smaller side when mated to my cows. A finally found a daughter of CC&7 she was good but again took more after her dam I guess and her calves were similar.
We used a 6 frame BPF Special Focus on heifers that was a 6 frame and those calves were small, all along.
The last bull we used was PA Power Tool he was under 6 maybe 5.8 or something, couldn't find an available 6.
Good calves, liked them but we have trouble with getting good weaning weights and size, they mature at decent size and start to get looking better frame wise around yearlings. Maybe we just have defective cows.
At one point I had some 1800 pound registered Angus cows weaning off 450-500 Angus calves. By around 18 months the heifers were starting to look good and had some growth, the steers though when sold a little after weaning were small and always sold as fleshy.
When I crossed my cows with a larger framed Hereford or Limousin I got bigger framed calves that did better at weaning.
I realize you and lots of other folks use Angus and have some fine looking cattle that I would be mighty proud to have but for some reason mine always hit a low growth ceiling as calves through weaning. I don't have a logical answer for it.

I have some cc7 straws if you need some.

 

[TexasJerseyMilker]

My great aunts and uncles raised that kind in Texas in the 1950s. Aunt Ruth and Uncle Conny raised Angus and aunt May and uncle Henry raised Hereford. As I recall the cattle were like big ole blocky chucks of meat.

 

[Ky hills]

I have some cc7 straws if you need some.

If I still had some registered Angus females I'd of loved to took you up that offer. But it would be a waste of straws on our commercial cows.