We have been running longhorn bulls for calving ease on our first calf baldy heifers for the last five years. Last year, partly due to my procrastination, we couldn't get one in time. So, we bought a LBW Angus from a breeder with whom I've known for a couple years. He was not a real good looker (the bull), but had small head and shoulders, and EPD's that confirmed he should be a good heifer bull. Semen test was good, and the breeder kept spouting off about him being "Guaranteed". Put him in with 10 heifers, he bred 2. Called the breeder back about this "guarantee", and he said, "Have him semen tested and if he's no good, I'll give you another bull". Of course the semen test was fine. So the breeder in all his kindness offered to sell me another bull and said he would "treat me right". I asked why on earth I would want another one of his P.O.S. bulls, and give him another chance to "guarantee" me out of more money (as politely as I could, of course). He just hung up. Some people are soooooo sensitive.
Bull Guarantee (venting frustrations)
- Thread starter grubbie
- Start date
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TexasBred
Well-known member
hmmmmmm.....test was good both times but lots of open cattle. Did you see him cover all those cattle?? If he did then you could have a problem with the cattle and/or your feeding program.
hillsdown
Well-known member
Did you do herd health before breeding to ensure all girls were actually cycling and breed-able?
All in all it is a bad deal to have open heifers.Sorry.
All in all it is a bad deal to have open heifers.Sorry.
Lots of potential problems here.
I assume you have never had a problem with fertility in your heifers before???
Have your heifers been vaccinated for things like Lepto? Kind of goes with question 1.
TB hit on a couple of things. I would make sure there is no problem with your heifers first, and just because you haven't in the past doesn't mean you don't have a problem this year. I am also not saying there is a problem, but you want to be sure you don't bark up the wrong tree off the bat.
Did the bull come to you in proper condition for breeding?? Was he too fat? Brother and I had a bad experience long time ago with a bull we bought. The breeder had them on a high concentrate diet, and the bull was simply too fat. Looked like a feedlot steer. Hindsight being 20/20, we were not real experienced in the cow/calf business. Long story short, bull's condition went downhill faster than Chevy Chase in Christmas Vacation. He only bred 2 or 3 of the 15 cows he was with. The breeder replaced the bull at their sale the next year. This bull was in better condition, but he had such a low libido, he wouldn't breed any cows. Most of his cows he was with came up open. We put him in a pen with cows that were in standing heat, and he wouldn't breed them. Nature lost it's course with that bull somewhere along the lines. Needless to say we didn't and never will buy another bull from them.
Did the bull injure a leg during breeding season that went undetected??
If the bull passed a BSE, hard to believe it is entirely the bull's fault, unless he just has no libido.
Crappy situation no matter what the problem is. I can see his stance, in that if the bull passed a BSE before and after breeding, hard to say what to do. He should have explained what his guarantee was. That he will pass a BSE, not give you any calving problems, etc. Hope you can get it worked out.
I assume you have never had a problem with fertility in your heifers before???
Have your heifers been vaccinated for things like Lepto? Kind of goes with question 1.
TB hit on a couple of things. I would make sure there is no problem with your heifers first, and just because you haven't in the past doesn't mean you don't have a problem this year. I am also not saying there is a problem, but you want to be sure you don't bark up the wrong tree off the bat.
Did the bull come to you in proper condition for breeding?? Was he too fat? Brother and I had a bad experience long time ago with a bull we bought. The breeder had them on a high concentrate diet, and the bull was simply too fat. Looked like a feedlot steer. Hindsight being 20/20, we were not real experienced in the cow/calf business. Long story short, bull's condition went downhill faster than Chevy Chase in Christmas Vacation. He only bred 2 or 3 of the 15 cows he was with. The breeder replaced the bull at their sale the next year. This bull was in better condition, but he had such a low libido, he wouldn't breed any cows. Most of his cows he was with came up open. We put him in a pen with cows that were in standing heat, and he wouldn't breed them. Nature lost it's course with that bull somewhere along the lines. Needless to say we didn't and never will buy another bull from them.
Did the bull injure a leg during breeding season that went undetected??
If the bull passed a BSE, hard to believe it is entirely the bull's fault, unless he just has no libido.
Crappy situation no matter what the problem is. I can see his stance, in that if the bull passed a BSE before and after breeding, hard to say what to do. He should have explained what his guarantee was. That he will pass a BSE, not give you any calving problems, etc. Hope you can get it worked out.
bigbull338
Well-known member
that breeder just blew his repp biggtime.he shouldve replaced that bull.no questions asked even with a good BSE test.i wouldnt buy a bull from him again.
randiliana
Well-known member
There are so many reasons for stuff like this to happen. Most of them have already been covered by others. If you are sure your heifers were cycling properly, and there is no disease involved, here are a couple of scenarios.
1. We had a situation very similar to yours. Was a yearling Red Angus bull that we were using on cows. We noticed the problem when we had lots of cows late in the breeding season still cycling. Turned out, that we didn't get 1 calf out of the bull. His semen test was 90%, and we saw him mounting cows. So it wasn't libido either. What it was, was that he did not have enough extension, and essentially try as hard as he could, he could not get his penis into a cow. The breeder made good on him though. We got full credit on the bull. Not much else that could have been done, as it was the end of our breeding season.
2. Same year, same breeder, but a different bull buyer. This bull, would only mount the cows from the front. Pretty hard to get a cow bred that way...... Again, breeder made good on the bull, even though he had a hard time believing that story. Got him home, turned him in with some cows, and he watched as that bull mounted their heads.
So there are a couple scenarios, that could be what you are experiencing. But, if your bull is testing good, you need to watch and see why he isn't breeding the heifers. Either they aren't cycling, there is some disease at work, or your bull has issues. If it is the bull, you need to know what the problem is. Is he not interested (or not very), is he mixed up about which end to go to, or is it a physical problem such as a lack of extension? Or perhaps it is something even more bizzare?? Watch him and see. Then get the breeder there to see for himself, and if he still won't make good, go somewhere else for sure. But, you need to know what the issue is first. Look at the problem from his side as well. He doesn't know what your heifers are like, or even if they are breedable. Good luck, and I hope you get a good solution to this problem.
1. We had a situation very similar to yours. Was a yearling Red Angus bull that we were using on cows. We noticed the problem when we had lots of cows late in the breeding season still cycling. Turned out, that we didn't get 1 calf out of the bull. His semen test was 90%, and we saw him mounting cows. So it wasn't libido either. What it was, was that he did not have enough extension, and essentially try as hard as he could, he could not get his penis into a cow. The breeder made good on him though. We got full credit on the bull. Not much else that could have been done, as it was the end of our breeding season.
2. Same year, same breeder, but a different bull buyer. This bull, would only mount the cows from the front. Pretty hard to get a cow bred that way...... Again, breeder made good on the bull, even though he had a hard time believing that story. Got him home, turned him in with some cows, and he watched as that bull mounted their heads.
So there are a couple scenarios, that could be what you are experiencing. But, if your bull is testing good, you need to watch and see why he isn't breeding the heifers. Either they aren't cycling, there is some disease at work, or your bull has issues. If it is the bull, you need to know what the problem is. Is he not interested (or not very), is he mixed up about which end to go to, or is it a physical problem such as a lack of extension? Or perhaps it is something even more bizzare?? Watch him and see. Then get the breeder there to see for himself, and if he still won't make good, go somewhere else for sure. But, you need to know what the issue is first. Look at the problem from his side as well. He doesn't know what your heifers are like, or even if they are breedable. Good luck, and I hope you get a good solution to this problem.
Well you all make good points, but, I am pretty confident in my heifers. Sure there is a chance I am wrong I guess. But they are healthy, they were synchronized and cycling fine, bull was in for 3 cycles. Saw him mount one, but we arent able to babysit our animals so if he quit, we don't know until it's too late. Never had this problem before, and I am not new this game. Anything is possible, but I'm pretty sure the bull was just not covering them. He was a yearling bull so maybe just not mature enough? I don't know. Like I said, just venting.
1982vett
Well-known member
grubbie":1ln3f6cy said:
I believe we have an answer.
I luv herfrds
Well-known member
I don't think so 1982vett. Our yearling bull last year bred quite a few of our cows and several yearling bulls we have gotten from different breeders have bred cows in their first year.
We had only one problem concerning a yearling bull that we used on our heifers, got him on loan from our cousin to do both of our heifers. I watched him one day. Heifers were in standing heat and all he wanted to d was eat the grass. Had not been fed enough. Once he went to work he threw some nice calves.
Just a thought, is he a real aggresive bull? Was he near other bulls?
We had one that was more interested in fighting then breeding.
We had only one problem concerning a yearling bull that we used on our heifers, got him on loan from our cousin to do both of our heifers. I watched him one day. Heifers were in standing heat and all he wanted to d was eat the grass. Had not been fed enough. Once he went to work he threw some nice calves.
Just a thought, is he a real aggresive bull? Was he near other bulls?
We had one that was more interested in fighting then breeding.
1982vett, I agree with I luv herfrds. A yearling bull in good conditon should be expected to breed 18 heifers no problem. So that should not be the problem. I have always used, and will continue to use yearling bulls on up to 20 head.
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
Grubbie just how old was that yearling bull in months. Most of the vets around here won't semen test any thing under 14 months. If he is older than that the man should have made him good.
TexasBred
Well-known member
Grubbie, on one line you quote the seller as saying he'll give you another bull and in another you say he offered to sell you another. Did he say he would give you credit for the amount you paid for the 1st bull toward the purchase of the other??
Even if the bull tested fine both before and after the breeding season, doesn't mean he can physically penetrate, ejaculate and breed a cow.
I suggest synchronizing atleast two or three cows and invite the breeder to come and visit and witness him actually in the act of breeding. If he don't hit the target it could be because of a skew penis, old injury, scar tissue, etc. It could be that he penetrates but don't ejaculate, again very easy to see, if he doesn't give that little jump at the final thrust he didn't complete the job. The semen will be a milky white in the bullstring also and the cow's tail will go up.
I had a customer try this on me two years ago and while I was there the bull mounted, penetrated and bred the cow. He sired over 70 calves in his first breeding season and the same guy has bought another bull from me in the meantime. Not saying that you're a chancer, just trying to make suggestions to persuade the breeder in a freindly manner that there might be more than just a semen test to evaluate a bull's ability to to breed and settle a cow.
I suggest synchronizing atleast two or three cows and invite the breeder to come and visit and witness him actually in the act of breeding. If he don't hit the target it could be because of a skew penis, old injury, scar tissue, etc. It could be that he penetrates but don't ejaculate, again very easy to see, if he doesn't give that little jump at the final thrust he didn't complete the job. The semen will be a milky white in the bullstring also and the cow's tail will go up.
I had a customer try this on me two years ago and while I was there the bull mounted, penetrated and bred the cow. He sired over 70 calves in his first breeding season and the same guy has bought another bull from me in the meantime. Not saying that you're a chancer, just trying to make suggestions to persuade the breeder in a freindly manner that there might be more than just a semen test to evaluate a bull's ability to to breed and settle a cow.
TexasBred
Well-known member
Well he's already bred 2 out of 10. Maybe he just needs more time. :roll:
1982vett
Well-known member
I luv herfrds":2gbttw3w said:
RVF":2gbttw3w said:
TNMasterBeefProducer":2gbttw3w said:
I still have to agree along the lines with Knersie, if the heifers are cycling and healty and the bull passed his test, in this case I have to believe the bull , at the time, was not developed enought to complete his job.
Question. When you use the term yearling bull, what age bull are you talking about. I hear the term and think of a bull that is 12 - 16 months old. A bull that is 18 - 24 months old I would call comming two year old. I do believe a bull 18 months or older could be able to service 14 - 16 month old heifers. Like TexasBred said, maybe he needed more time.
Not sure I understand you correctly????????
Ultimately all herefords come out of animals imported from the UK, just like USA herefords. Herefords has been in SA since 1870 something.
Mine are born and bred in SA, the two bulls are bulls I've bred. I don't think any herefords has physically been imported to SA since the '70s, but there was a craze when some breeders in the late '80s and early '90s thought bigger was better and lots of semen got imported from Canada, USA and to a lesser degree from Australia and NZ. That luckily proved to be a fault early on and the effect wasn't as long lasting as elsewhere. Prior to that time semen was mostly imported from the UK.
endebt
Well-known member
I have to disagree. I sell a lot of bulls. They are reg. angus. We had the same thing happen this year. I sold a bull to a single lady 18 months later she calls. The lady had her cows preg cked only 3 bred out of 25. We had the bull cked and he was good. The buyer did not want to ck. eis cows by a vet for any diase. She just wanted to get mad and talk about how he was taken advantage of her. We bought the bull back and sold him to a friend and he covered 35 in 35 days. There are just to many things that can be wrong with cows and hiefers. As well as bulls. Hope you fine a bull that makes you happy and will bred your cows.
No, first he said if the bull tested bad, he would give me another. Once he tested out okay, THEN he offered to sell me another. As far as yearling bulls go, thats generally what we use. Im not sure of his exact months of age though. As far as the other issues mentioned,....he was in good condition, on good grass, and not in with another bull. Now, conducting experiments or taking him to the vet and running tests is just really not something I have time to do, and Im pretty sure the breeder isnt going to make it good anyway. So rather than waste any more time and energy on this animal I hauled him off to the auction and cut my losses. Three new bulls this year!!!TexasBred":230t62oj said:
