Big Momma Cows

[dbirdsong]

I'm surprised that feeding grain is so frowned on. Here almost every with cattle regardless of breed, seed stock or commercial feeds somewhere between 5-8 pounds of a commodity mix/cubes per cow during the winter. Most of our hay is very low quality and just doesn't have the nutrients needed to sustain a cow through the winter.

 

[Ebenezer]

I'm surprised that feeding grain is so frowned on. Here almost every with cattle regardless of breed, seed stock or commercial feeds somewhere between 5-8 pounds of a commodity mix/cubes per cow during the winter. Most of our hay is very low quality and just doesn't have the nutrients needed to sustain a cow through the winter.

Costs versus return?

 

[dbirdsong]

My land is old peanut ground. In order to lime and fertilize to produce quality hay I can feed 5 pounds of commodities cheaper.

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

I'm surprised that feeding grain is so frowned on. Here almost every with cattle regardless of breed, seed stock or commercial feeds somewhere between 5-8 pounds of a commodity mix/cubes per cow during the winter. Most of our hay is very low quality and just doesn't have the nutrients needed to sustain a cow through the winter.

Dr. Rick Funston, Cattle Reproductive Physiologist at University of Nebraska, has done extensive work on fetal programming. He has proven how a cow's diet affects/influences her calf through it's entire life. If a cow gets 5 pounds of grain every day, the calf she's carrying will require that same level of nutrition because it's metabolism was programmed at that nutrition level during gestation. Just like a woman who's using meth while pregnant. Her baby is born addicted.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I don't know what other major seedstock producers do. Maybe they all feed grain to their cows all year long and you're the only one to admit to it. I think many feed corn silage which is not much different then feeding dry grain like you. I've just been shocked that you freely admit to feeding grain as a seedstock producer..
I know many bash those operations that creep their calves, but I personally have never had a problem with it. I want to buy a bull in really good condition. Not a fat butterball, but in excellent condition. It may never look as good while it's in my possession, but I feel like I can see it's genetic potential if it's in very good condition at purchase.

We don't feed our calves on creep, but our cows have everything they need and they raise a big calf while pregnant without losing condition. Angus Association allows for calves to be weaned up to 280 days, then they adjust to 205. We usually leave the calves on the dam until about 270-275 days. That's a big animal nursing, the cows need good nutrition to handle that. In the summer, there is endless grass and clover to get the job done, in the winter we use a grain mix and haylage. Is it a high level of nutrition?, yes, very high, but the calves wean off ready to take things to the next level. You can't fix things after weaning in my opinion, things have to be right from the beginning.

A nutritionist that I have a lot of respect for, and who was involved for many years in dairy, and is responsible for the feed mixes at Southern States where we are located, advised me to NOT creep feed calves. He said the mommas would take care of them, but once they are weaned then the bulls can get a generous ration daily. His planned has helped our cattle immensely.

What I'm doing is probably not for everyone, whatever works for you is what you should do. We are breeding high performance animals. We aren't asking our gals to survive on the absolute minimum, we've done that many years ago, and they perform better on this plan.

What's amazing to me is how worked up people are on this board regarding the practice. I'm in no way saying cattle cannot perform otherwise, obviously they can. We have an abundance of inputs for our cattle around here, something people from Kentucky take for granted. For example, we typically mow our pastures 4-5 times during the summer because the cattle can't take it down fast enough. That's probably not the scenario in West Texas or Colorado. I'm not selling to those markets. Our cattle are for Kentucky and the surrounding states. That's where they really thrive and perform.

If I were to use an analogy for how I see what we are doing, we are working with diesel engines instead of gas. Both work well, not everyone wants diesel, some people far prefer gas. One is not necessarily better than the other, they just serve different purposes. If I were running an Angus herd in West Texas, I seriously doubt our cattle would look like they do, nor would they be fed in the same manner.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I'm surprised that feeding grain is so frowned on. Here almost every with cattle regardless of breed, seed stock or commercial feeds somewhere between 5-8 pounds of a commodity mix/cubes per cow during the winter. Most of our hay is very low quality and just doesn't have the nutrients needed to sustain a cow through the winter.

Dr. Rick Funston, Cattle Reproductive Physiologist at University of Nebraska, has done extensive work on fetal programming. He has proven how a cow's diet affects/influences her calf through it's entire life. If a cow gets 5 pounds of grain every day, the calf she's carrying will require that same level of nutrition because it's metabolism was programmed at that nutrition level during gestation. Just like a woman who's using meth while pregnant. Her baby is born addicted.

How about starving a woman who is pregnant and taking away her pre natal vitamins?

Have you seen how kids develop on a lousy diet?

There are no shortage of seed stock producers who promote that their cattle are as thrifty as they come, they need virtually no inputs. That's great, I have no issues with that, but those thrifty cattle are a bit light for my taste.

If you want to make human comparisons, let's look at bodybuilding, or sports. UK basketball players don't subsist on rice cakes and play a whole game. A bodybuilder consumes a lot of high quality protein to gain muscle. Do you think The Rock could hold that mass on salads, carrot sticks and celery alone? Maybe, but he would be eating 24 hours a day, who knows it's a ridiculous idea. High performance takes high nutrition. Many producers would rather raise 100 calves that weigh 400 pounds versus 50 that are in the 750-800 range. I'm in the latter camp.

 

[dbirdsong]

A cow has nutritional requirements to sustain a body score of 5 while nursing a calf. If the quality of hay that is being fed does not meet those requirements then they must be supplemented with a different source of nutrients. I have bought cattle from a breeder who did not supplement. He didn't have to because he fed high quality hay that had been sprayed and fertilized and his cows held their condition well. When I brought them to my environment they were the first to lose condition even when receiving the extra supplement. I guess they were fetal programmed to require high quality hay.

 

[Dave]

There are probably 4 times more momma cows in this county than there are people. I am certain that the vast majority of those cows have never seen any grain. There is 3 or 4 thousand cows in my little community and none of them get grain.

 

[Stocker Steve]

How is this different than epigenetics ?

 

[sim.-ang.king]

I'm surprised that feeding grain is so frowned on. Here almost every with cattle regardless of breed, seed stock or commercial feeds somewhere between 5-8 pounds of a commodity mix/cubes per cow during the winter. Most of our hay is very low quality and just doesn't have the nutrients needed to sustain a cow through the winter.

Dr. Rick Funston, Cattle Reproductive Physiologist at University of Nebraska, has done extensive work on fetal programming. He has proven how a cow's diet affects/influences her calf through it's entire life. If a cow gets 5 pounds of grain every day, the calf she's carrying will require that same level of nutrition because it's metabolism was programmed at that nutrition level during gestation. Just like a woman who's using meth while pregnant. Her baby is born addicted.

How about starving a woman who is pregnant and taking away her pre natal vitamins?

Have you seen how kids develop on a lousy diet?

There are no shortage of seed stock producers who promote that their cattle are as thrifty as they come, they need virtually no inputs. That's great, I have no issues with that, but those thrifty cattle are a bit light for my taste.

If you want to make human comparisons, let's look at bodybuilding, or sports. UK basketball players don't subsist on rice cakes and play a whole game. A bodybuilder consumes a lot of high quality protein to gain muscle. Do you think The Rock could hold that mass on salads, carrot sticks and celery alone? Maybe, but he would be eating 24 hours a day, who knows it's a ridiculous idea. High performance takes high nutrition. Many producers would rather raise 100 calves that weigh 400 pounds versus 50 that are in the 750-800 range. I'm in the latter camp.

Why go to either extreme? The middle is the most cost effect, while maintaining conception rates.
<3 BCS have lower conception rate, while >6 have higher feed cost, and can have lower conception rates in high stress.
3.5-5.5 BCS is not starving cows, it's just smart management.

Branded, what are your conception rates with your over-conditioned cows when in a natural service program, with a breeding season of May-July, and only living off of fescue? Can they maintain condition, and still concive in the first 30 days, like you say your's can with AI'ing, and a high nutrient diet?

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

Branded-it seems you go to the extreme when answering a statement or question. No where is it implied that it is right to starve a cow or human. What many of us are trying to say is there is a happy medium. Cows don't require a daily feeding of grain to thrive. They can't survive on air and sunshine. BUT, they can maintain themselves on an adequate diet of quality hay.
Bonsma proved fat is antagonistic to fertility. Many female athletes become infertile because of lack of body fat. Nature does not tolerate extremes.

 

[dbirdsong]

There are way too many trucks with feeders and grain wagons running around for me to believe the majority of cattle in Oklahoma are not receiving supplement in the winter. I would guess that the majority of cows are getting some commodities or cubes from December through March. April through to November they get nothing but mineral. That is the norm for most ranchers here.

 

[Ebenezer]

If you want to make human comparisons,

See what Drs tell adults and kids about obesity; Not good, ... not good.

 

[CattleMan1920]

If you want to make human comparisons,

See what Drs tell adults and kids about obesity; Not good, ... not good.

I agree with you, which is rare. But take someone who is 6"5 and 240, mostly muscle. No amount of restricted dieting will make that person shorter or get them to say 165. If the frame is there on a big cow, you cannot attribute her size strictly to fat.

A highly fit person can have a high BMI score which could indicate they are obese, meanwhile they work out 3 hours a day at the gym and have biceps like Popeye.

 

[gcreekrch]

There are way too many trucks with feeders and grain wagons running around for me to believe the majority of cattle in Oklahoma are not receiving supplement in the winter. I would guess that the majority of cows are getting some commodities or cubes from December through March. April through to November they get nothing but mineral. That is the norm for most ranchers here.

That may be the case but what and how much roughage is being fed? If it is cost effective to feed straw and several lbs of corn or barley that is a different scenario.

If you are feeding grain to cows on sufficient good forage to keep them in good nick the purpose is defeated.

How much a cow weighs, how fat or thin she is, what her calf weighs is negligible if they aren't leaving a per head profit in your pocket. I don't care to see producers swing either way with feeding cattle.

 

[mwj]

To me it is an overall quest for an oversized bovine. I could care less whether the nutrition is from high quality forage, byproducts or grain. If the offspring of these genetic giants reach harvest weight without the finish they need, what is the sense in raising them ? I have watched the ''frame'' race in the past and the results were not good.

 

[CattleMan1920]

The quest is for carcass quality. If you are sending out steers that rank in the top 10% of the Angus breed for all major carcass traits, they gain fast on milk and grass alone and are out the door at 205-230 days as 7 or 8 weights. What is not to like? There have to be purebred Angus producers out west and up north that are pulling this very scenario off and getting paid handsomely. It sounds like a good business plan to me.

I still need some explanation on how a 1100-1200 pound cow with minimal inputs, grass and hay only is going to raise a 700-800 pound weanling? She would be a superstar if so, that's weaning almost 70% of her body weight! I can see 4 and 5 weights, but not 7-8's. Which means you have a lot more cattle going to reach the same amount of weight on the trailer.

Take an 1800 pound cow, weaning that 700 pounder is not the same feat. Am I right or wrong? If weaning weights don't matter, why do people focus so much on them? I don't see how you are a serious producer if you ignore them.

 

[mwj]

So if I take that 8 wt. weanling to be fed how many days will it be on feed before harvest and how will it grade? Most calves will be grown out before they go into a feed yard for finish. Will those calves fit into these programs? Do you have a firm grasp on what it takes to produce an animal that meets CAB specifications at harvest?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Usually those reaching those weights are terminal,or their creeping them..and mostly for bragging rights...I've had those big cows in the past...and when times get tough,their the first to show it..

 

[CattleMan1920]

Usually those reaching those weights are terminal,or their creeping them..and mostly for bragging rights...I've had those big cows in the past...and when times get tough,their the first to show it..

We don't creep feed them, but their mommas are fed well. Running out of food here, at least for now is not an issue. People in my county right now are scrambling, I mean in a panic, trying to find hay, but that's not an environmental issue as much as it is a poor management issue. We try to always put up as much hay as we possibly can, way more than we will feed out.