Big Momma Cows

[farmerjan]

Just out of curiousity.... The video that was showing the requirements of CAB and explaining it all, said that they did not want an exceptionally big animal or carcass. I am thinking they were talking like 1050-1150 live wt with a hanging weight of 750 or something like that. So where do the real big angus cows fit in this? Big animals take longer, and more feed to reach the "finishing" stage. There is a certain amount of growth that the animal has to do before it will get to the stage of marbling, and laying on backfat. They don't want alot of backfat, which is what an animal will do, before it marbles well, if it is being fed a "hot" ration to finish, and has not hit that stage of "growth".

Here we do not want those real big cows. They do not do well with our pasture conditions. They take too much feed to get the kind of milk they need to produce the calves. We have also seen feet and leg problems in our cattle when they get too big. Sure we are a commercial operation, no fancy names or bloodlines although we have a few registered head. We do very little supplementing, these are grass cattle that have to raise their calves on what they "rustle up" on pasture. We don't creep feed the calves either as a rule. Harsh winter conditions, like the extreme wet and swings of temps have us feeding a little this year. The hay has been mostly overmature and not great in the quality.

I do supplement the calves that I raise on the nurse cows, but it is not "typical creep feeding" they get about 1-2 lbs per head about 3 times a week, to teach them to come in through the creep gate. Makes catching and handling easier and gets the calves used to coming in and eating out of a bunk. Makes weaning easier too. They know what feed is for, and don't spend days bawling for the cows, but go to the bunk to eat because they know what it is for.

We just took off the Heifer calves, they had been getting a silage cart in the field for about 2 weeks prior so as to learn what the cart was for and to develop a little taste for the feed. Average 8 months old, weighing right at 500 lbs average. One third were off first calf heifers this time, from a very easy calving bull that regualrly threw calves in the 60 - 65 lb range. Little things they just spit out, they got up and sucked and went on. So if you figure a 2 lb gain per day, 60 lbs a month... 8 months x 60 lbs is 480 lbs. So with all the rain, "washy grass" that was more water than anything, I am not unhappy with them. They could have been a little bigger, but weren't bad. We have 75 % angus crossed cows, some Char crossed, some red polls, some hereford crosses. The momma cows, when we cull, usually average 10-1150 as cull cows, so I would say our average cows are 1050-1100.
We buy bulls that are "grass based genetics" and have bought a few others that will "melt" when they go out to pasture on just grass. Got one now that probably dropped 300 lbs over the course of last summer. It will be the second and last one we buy from them. They don't do good in our situation.

All that saying, is that we are producing what the buyers are looking for here. They want a moderate sized animal that has some "body" without looking like it will grow out to be a huge animal. Don't raise enough to have any feedlot feedback on them, but the buyers that ask if we brought any in to the sale this week, and will bid on them, is a good example that what we are trying to do must be okay.

 

[Bright Raven]

I do supplement the calves that I raise on the nurse cows, but it is not "typical creep feeding" they get about 1-2 lbs per head about 3 times a week, to teach them to come in through the creep gate. Makes catching and handling easier and gets the calves used to coming in and eating out of a bunk. Makes weaning easier too. They know what feed is for, and don't spend days bawling for the cows, but go to the bunk to eat because they know what it is for.

I creep feed my seedstock calves. As you state so well, it trains them to separate from the cows for easy handling. I also halter train so getting them trained to come into what I call the sanctuary, facilitates getting them into the Sweep for catch and halter.

 

[Ebenezer]

Just out of curiousity.... The video that was showing the requirements of CAB and explaining it all, said that they did not want an exceptionally big animal or carcass. I am thinking they were talking like 1050-1150 live wt with a hanging weight of 750 or something like that. So where do the real big angus cows fit in this? Big animals take longer, and more feed to reach the "finishing" stage. There is a certain amount of growth that the animal has to do before it will get to the stage of marbling, and laying on backfat. They don't want alot of backfat, which is what an animal will do, before it marbles well, if it is being fed a "hot" ration to finish, and has not hit that stage of "growth".

Here we do not want those real big cows. They do not do well with our pasture conditions. They take too much feed to get the kind of milk they need to produce the calves. We have also seen feet and leg problems in our cattle when they get too big. Sure we are a commercial operation, no fancy names or bloodlines although we have a few registered head. We do very little supplementing, these are grass cattle that have to raise their calves on what they "rustle up" on pasture. We don't creep feed the calves either as a rule. Harsh winter conditions, like the extreme wet and swings of temps have us feeding a little this year. The hay has been mostly overmature and not great in the quality.

I do supplement the calves that I raise on the nurse cows, but it is not "typical creep feeding" they get about 1-2 lbs per head about 3 times a week, to teach them to come in through the creep gate. Makes catching and handling easier and gets the calves used to coming in and eating out of a bunk. Makes weaning easier too. They know what feed is for, and don't spend days bawling for the cows, but go to the bunk to eat because they know what it is for.

We just took off the Heifer calves, they had been getting a silage cart in the field for about 2 weeks prior so as to learn what the cart was for and to develop a little taste for the feed. Average 8 months old, weighing right at 500 lbs average. One third were off first calf heifers this time, from a very easy calving bull that regualrly threw calves in the 60 - 65 lb range. Little things they just spit out, they got up and sucked and went on. So if you figure a 2 lb gain per day, 60 lbs a month... 8 months x 60 lbs is 480 lbs. So with all the rain, "washy grass" that was more water than anything, I am not unhappy with them. They could have been a little bigger, but weren't bad. We have 75 % angus crossed cows, some Char crossed, some red polls, some hereford crosses. The momma cows, when we cull, usually average 10-1150 as cull cows, so I would say our average cows are 1050-1100.
We buy bulls that are "grass based genetics" and have bought a few others that will "melt" when they go out to pasture on just grass. Got one now that probably dropped 300 lbs over the course of last summer. It will be the second and last one we buy from them. They don't do good in our situation.

All that saying, is that we are producing what the buyers are looking for here. They want a moderate sized animal that has some "body" without looking like it will grow out to be a huge animal. Don't raise enough to have any feedlot feedback on them, but the buyers that ask if we brought any in to the sale this week, and will bid on them, is a good example that what we are trying to do must be okay.

https://www.certifiedangusbeef.com/brand/specs.php

4. 10- to 16-square-inch ribeye area

5. 1,050-pound hot carcass weight or less

6. Less than 1-inch fat thickness

At 1050 and 62% dress, live weight would max out at 1693 lbs. Rule of thumb used to be that a steer finishes at 150 to 200 pounds over his dam's weight.

 

[dbirdsong]

Here is his pedigree info. What's interesting is look at his en end for a 3200 pound bull.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Here is his pedigree info. What's interesting is look at his en end for a 3200 pound bull.

He was efficient at that size. That's what I'm trying to tell folks on here, you can have really big efficient cows. I'm not going to waste my breath anymore trying to explain something that I'm actually achieving. What a university thesis by a grad student states and what is actually going on in my pasture can be two entirely different things.

I like the pedigree on the Hoff bull.

 

[CattleMan1920]

If you look at Hoff Valedictorian, he has blood in that pedigree from Byergo Angus.

Someone on this thread said that Byergo Angus was up to some funny business. If you notice this huge bull had Byergos Black Revolution 36 AAA #8173630 in his bloodline.

I will never understand why people don't get the concept of outliers. Every breed and creature on this planet has them. In the past once a big bull was discovered, it was a good thing, now people shun it.

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

Branded---were you ever at Hoff's?

I was. Somewhere around 2003.

There were creep feeders in every pasture. With no cages around them. The cows had unrestricted access just like the calves did.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded---were you ever at Hoff's?

I was. Somewhere around 2003.

There were creep feeders in every pasture. With no cages around them. The cows had unrestricted access just like the calves did.

No. We don't creep feed calves, but we do give our cows a small grain ration each night, all of them.

 

[Lazy M]

Branded---were you ever at Hoff's?

I was. Somewhere around 2003.

There were creep feeders in every pasture. With no cages around them. The cows had unrestricted access just like the calves did.

No. We don't creep feed calves, but we do give our cows a small grain ration each night, all of them.

FYI: I've seen you mention feeding your cattle several times and you must understand that this is about the worst thing a seedstock operation can admit to. Whether your cattle "need" supplementation or not, the fact that you are graining them is a major turnoff for anyone that would consider using your bulls. I appreciate your honesty, but it gives one the impression that your cattle can't cut it in a real world environment.. this also just may be my opinion. I don't supplement my cows, but I do begin creep feeding my fall calves in February.

 

[Muddy]

I don't know anyone who grain feeding their cows daily. Majority of us do creep feeding the calves.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I don't know anyone who grain feeding their cows daily. Majority of us do creep feeding the calves.

We AI nearly our entire herd without any synch or Lutalyse. They are often in lots that are a 1/2 mile or farther away when we go out with the Gator, shake a bucket, they follow anywhere we go, this makes AI a breeze.

I completely understand not giving cows grain, but if we didn't, and we have tried, they don't have a lot of incentive to follow.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded---were you ever at Hoff's?

I was. Somewhere around 2003.

There were creep feeders in every pasture. With no cages around them. The cows had unrestricted access just like the calves did.

No. We don't creep feed calves, but we do give our cows a small grain ration each night, all of them.

FYI: I've seen you mention feeding your cattle several times and you must understand that this is about the worst thing a seedstock operation can admit to. Whether your cattle "need" supplementation or not, the fact that you are graining them is a major turnoff for anyone that would consider using your bulls. I appreciate your honesty, but it gives one the impression that your cattle can't cut it in a real world environment.. this also just may be my opinion. I don't supplement my cows, but I do begin creep feeding my fall calves in February.

That's fine by me Lucky. At least I'm telling the truth. Do you want to see me advertise "Cattle for sale, extremely limited feed given to entire herd, cows survive on moldy hay and weeds only. Absolutely NO quality forage or supplementation offered at any time to our herd" I joke with you, but there are people that have their cattle on that plan, and that's their business, but it's not how we do things.

You do know that grain is poured to bulls at most seedstock operations, they don't walk out into that ring looking like stars by accident. On top of that most top bulls in production are getting very high-quality haylage.

We never creep feed our calves, and they do fine. As for "real world" the sires are all definitely from proven programs Apex Angus, McCumber, Crook Mountain, SAV, Connealy, Stone Gate and the list goes on, the cows, if not developed here, are from a hardcore grass only operation, which is Stone Gate. I'm not bragging, but I've seen people buy our bulls, and they told me straight up "we are not going to feed them much of anything, definitely not grain" and lo and behold, they worked out, were not returned, and the buyers had a successful calf crop.

I stand by what we produce, it's not for everyone, we aren't a factory here, nothing cookie cutter. That grain supplement we feed has probiotics and yeast cultures, along with vitamins that help in overall health in addition to the minerals they receive. It's not straight corn.

 

[Muddy]

It's nice that you're trying to convince us that it's ok to raises giant cows but I don't want any giant cows on my land.

 

[CattleMan1920]

It's nice that you're trying to convince us that it's ok to raises giant cows but I don't want any giant cows on my land.

That's fine, you have to do what works for you. I am not personally trying to sell you anything. I'm telling you what works for me.

A producer near me has much smaller cows, he doesn't feed them much, and most have ribs showing, but somehow they manage to live. I don't tell him how to raise his cattle, nor does he tell me what to do. Would I post pics of those cattle on here and expect hand claps for my ranching skills? Definitely not!

Again, everyone has a method that works for them. My buyers like big, thick bulls, that are still athletic. I have what they want.

I wish you well whatever you decide to do.

 

[farmerjan]

Just out of curiousity.... The video that was showing the requirements of CAB and explaining it all, said that they did not want an exceptionally big animal or carcass. I am thinking they were talking like 1050-1150 live wt with a hanging weight of 750 or something like that. So where do the real big angus cows fit in this? Big animals take longer, and more feed to reach the "finishing" stage. There is a certain amount of growth that the animal has to do before it will get to the stage of marbling, and laying on backfat. They don't want alot of backfat, which is what an animal will do, before it marbles well, if it is being fed a "hot" ration to finish, and has not hit that stage of "growth".

Here we do not want those real big cows. They do not do well with our pasture conditions. They take too much feed to get the kind of milk they need to produce the calves. We have also seen feet and leg problems in our cattle when they get too big. Sure we are a commercial operation, no fancy names or bloodlines although we have a few registered head. We do very little supplementing, these are grass cattle that have to raise their calves on what they "rustle up" on pasture. We don't creep feed the calves either as a rule. Harsh winter conditions, like the extreme wet and swings of temps have us feeding a little this year. The hay has been mostly overmature and not great in the quality.

I do supplement the calves that I raise on the nurse cows, but it is not "typical creep feeding" they get about 1-2 lbs per head about 3 times a week, to teach them to come in through the creep gate. Makes catching and handling easier and gets the calves used to coming in and eating out of a bunk. Makes weaning easier too. They know what feed is for, and don't spend days bawling for the cows, but go to the bunk to eat because they know what it is for.

We just took off the Heifer calves, they had been getting a silage cart in the field for about 2 weeks prior so as to learn what the cart was for and to develop a little taste for the feed. Average 8 months old, weighing right at 500 lbs average. One third were off first calf heifers this time, from a very easy calving bull that regualrly threw calves in the 60 - 65 lb range. Little things they just spit out, they got up and sucked and went on. So if you figure a 2 lb gain per day, 60 lbs a month... 8 months x 60 lbs is 480 lbs. So with all the rain, "washy grass" that was more water than anything, I am not unhappy with them. They could have been a little bigger, but weren't bad. We have 75 % angus crossed cows, some Char crossed, some red polls, some hereford crosses. The momma cows, when we cull, usually average 10-1150 as cull cows, so I would say our average cows are 1050-1100.
We buy bulls that are "grass based genetics" and have bought a few others that will "melt" when they go out to pasture on just grass. Got one now that probably dropped 300 lbs over the course of last summer. It will be the second and last one we buy from them. They don't do good in our situation.

All that saying, is that we are producing what the buyers are looking for here. They want a moderate sized animal that has some "body" without looking like it will grow out to be a huge animal. Don't raise enough to have any feedlot feedback on them, but the buyers that ask if we brought any in to the sale this week, and will bid on them, is a good example that what we are trying to do must be okay.

https://www.certifiedangusbeef.com/brand/specs.php

4. 10- to 16-square-inch ribeye area

5. 1,050-pound hot carcass weight or less

6. Less than 1-inch fat thickness

At 1050 and 62% dress, live weight would max out at 1693 lbs. Rule of thumb used to be that a steer finishes at 150 to 200 pounds over his dam's weight.

Thank you for correcting me on that. I was having trouble with the internet and missed the 1050 hot carcass weight statement; thinking it was live weight. So you are right. they are bigger than most of what we produce. But if you are saying the rule of thumb is that a steer finishes out at 150 to 200 lbs over dam weight, then the dams are in the neighborhood of 1450-1600 +/-. A bit bigger than ours, but still not near as big as Brookhills. I don't doubt his cows are very nice to look at, and if it is working for them then god bless them because they are obviously doing better than we are. The cull/pound cow market here also will discount a big fleshy cull cow. I know, I had a few that were char cross that weighed in the 1600+ range, and got less per pound than the 1300 ones that weren't as fleshy. And I thought mine looked real good, and they did, but not for what the cull cow buyers were looking for.
Maybe our calves are growing better than we realized it, even with the dams weighing less than 12- 1300 most of the time.

 

[Ebenezer]

then the dams are in the neighborhood of 1450-1600 +/-. A bit bigger than ours,

Probably 1450 or less. This is the upper CAB limit and a graph I saw recently had the CAB carcass average weight at 950 or so. So that could take you down to 1350. Use a high growth terminal type bull and the cow could be even smaller if she can have the calf. And the 1" fat limit lets a smaller steer get heavier than it would have to be to finish.

 

[u4411clb]

I don't care for big momma cows. I have found 1100-1250 is ideal weight for my area. I do wonder why so many people are against feeding grain or feed to their cows. What difference does it make in the bottom line if you feed hay or grain. If people truly put the real cost on their hay I don't think feed would be such a bad word.

If you figure in land you can't graze, fertilizer, lime, diesel, hay barn, machine cost and repairs and time (even if they factor in minimum wage on their time) those rolls they say they have $40-$50 in they probably have more like $60-$70. So what is the difference in some one going buying gin trash ($15 a ton) cotton seed ($140 a ton) and corn ($160) a ton and make a feed like we do. That gets you down to around $80 a ton and you don't spend long summer days cutting rolling storing hay and hoping nothing tears up machine wise. You can go buy what I described in about 30 minutes and make a feed that has way more nutrient value than hay even sprayed, fertilized and lime hay.

And there are people who can get distillers grains etc for just as cheap or cheaper who cares whether they spend time and money on feed or whether they spend it in hay. Either way can get the job done. Don't get me wrong we make hay on our operation but I try to sell as much hay as I can to the horse people square bales etc and try to feed as much feed as I can because that pencils out better for us. But we usually only feed hay after stockpiled fescue peters out sometime usually in December until rye grass\wheat\clover we plant is ready usually end of February but I don't feel a certain way at all about feeding grain during that time. And don't understand why so many people call them welfare cows etc. You give cows what they need for the cheapest price you can come up with be it hay or feed imo.

 

[farmerjan]

Branded; I am not knocking your cows. They are bigger than what we want here. I like to look at a nice filled out cow, have a few that we call tubs that are probably fleshier than they need to be. But I like a little more condition than some people as you also seem to. I think that the fleshier ones tend to milk a little better in the early lactation as they are milking the fat off their back like a dairy cow, and extra reserves mean they are not pulling down their body to a thin status. We try to not have cows with their ribs showing. Some of the dairy crosses will when about 60 days fresh if they aren't on real good grass.

I understand the theory of feeding the cows to keep them coming to you . We feed ours at pasture maybe once a week or every couple of weeks, just to keep them coming when we call. And it teaches the calves to come when we call too. We just don't do it daily. And the calves don't get creep fed except to teach them to come in and get a treat that momma can't get to first and push them out of the way. It's not a free choice thing like some that use the creep feeders out in the pastures with the "cage" around them. They have to come in for the "creep feed" and it is only there when we are, and call them, usually only 2-3 times a week, and only about 1-2 lbs per calf.

 

[Lazy M]

No. We don't creep feed calves, but we do give our cows a small grain ration each night, all of them.

FYI: I've seen you mention feeding your cattle several times and you must understand that this is about the worst thing a seedstock operation can admit to. Whether your cattle "need" supplementation or not, the fact that you are graining them is a major turnoff for anyone that would consider using your bulls. I appreciate your honesty, but it gives one the impression that your cattle can't cut it in a real world environment.. this also just may be my opinion. I don't supplement my cows, but I do begin creep feeding my fall calves in February.

That's fine by me Lucky. At least I'm telling the truth. Do you want to see me advertise "Cattle for sale, extremely limited feed given to entire herd, cows survive on moldy hay and weeds only. Absolutely NO quality forage or supplementation offered at any time to our herd" I joke with you, but there are people that have their cattle on that plan, and that's their business, but it's not how we do things.

You do know that grain is poured to bulls at most seedstock operations, they don't walk out into that ring looking like stars by accident. On top of that most top bulls in production are getting very high-quality haylage.

We never creep feed our calves, and they do fine. As for "real world" the sires are all definitely from proven programs Apex Angus, McCumber, Crook Mountain, SAV, Connealy, Stone Gate and the list goes on, the cows, if not developed here, are from a hardcore grass only operation, which is Stone Gate. I'm not bragging, but I've seen people buy our bulls, and they told me straight up "we are not going to feed them much of anything, definitely not grain" and lo and behold, they worked out, were not returned, and the buyers had a successful calf crop.

I stand by what we produce, it's not for everyone, we aren't a factory here, nothing cookie cutter. That grain supplement we feed has probiotics and yeast cultures, along with vitamins that help in overall health in addition to the minerals they receive. It's not straight corn.

I don't know what other major seedstock producers do. Maybe they all feed grain to their cows all year long and you're the only one to admit to it. I think many feed corn silage which is not much different then feeding dry grain like you. I've just been shocked that you freely admit to feeding grain as a seedstock producer..
I know many bash those operations that creep their calves, but I personally have never had a problem with it. I want to buy a bull in really good condition. Not a fat butterball, but in excellent condition. It may never look as good while it's in my possession, but I feel like I can see it's genetic potential if it's in very good condition at purchase.

 

[Stocker Steve]

A commodity mix is cheaper per pound of TDN than hay in many areas - - but not everyone has the time and equipment to feed a mix. So it can be an issue of scale.