KAstocker
Well-known member
Vets are always busy after a full moon
Best Cattle Crosses For Unassisted Calving
- Thread starter rocfarm
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Son of Butch
Well-known member
Come on Chad, man up.... you said, you were gonna tell her what to do....
are you a man or a mouse?
lol p.s.
I'll share some cheese, bcs telling a woman what to do has never worked for me either.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
The moon has serious gravitational pull on water.
Percentage of water by body part.
Plasma 90% water (weeping of blood impairs healing)
Lungs 83%
Muscles and kidneys 79%
Brain and heart 73% (dehydration causes fatigue, dizziness and confusion)
Skin 64%
Bone 31%
Percentage of water by body part.
Plasma 90% water (weeping of blood impairs healing)
Lungs 83%
Muscles and kidneys 79%
Brain and heart 73% (dehydration causes fatigue, dizziness and confusion)
Skin 64%
Bone 31%
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We use to see O&G production change based on the moon.
rocfarm
Well-known member
I remember I promised everyone in this thread I'd post a picture of the cows I picked up.
The interesting thing about our discussion is that it really didn't seem to matter what I wanted. I had to take what I could get in central Texas if I didn't want to pay a big premium. I went to three auctions and called a few others. Never had many cow/calf pairs (maybe ten) for sale and they'd split them up most of the time because even the thin cows were being sent to slaughter. Only had a catwalk to look at the cattle from, and can't judge cattle very good if they aren't walking and you aren't on the ground with them. In the auction pen, you have about 20 seconds to judge whether or not it is a good cow before the packers are finished bidding, which made it interesting, as they are simply looking for a cow that can live long enough to get to the packing plant to be butchered and don't care about confirmation characteristics.
Ended up with a black corriente, a hereford, an F1 Braford, what looks like an angus/Holstein or maybe Angus/Hereford cross with a 3/4 angus heifer calf, a red cow, and a rwf cow. I know the condition on some of them is not great, as I had to take what was available. Already put out a 200 Lb protein tub to try to put some weight on them before breeding. Will purchase a black angus bull to put on them around December 20th. All but the young heifer will be mature enough to be bred by then.
I did learn that a red angus calf that looks just as good as the black angus calf standing next to it at the auction will get docked in central Texas, so there is really no choice but for your terminal cross to be black unless cattle raising is a luxury for you. Not a luxury for me.
I took the angle of starting slow and having the aim of breeding up to bwf/black cattle that will throw 3/4 angus calves. All told, I spent about $4000 on these seven head of cattle, and the red cow is 7 months bred, with the possibility of a few of the others being bred as well. So a pretty economical start. We'll see how it goes from here.
The interesting thing about our discussion is that it really didn't seem to matter what I wanted. I had to take what I could get in central Texas if I didn't want to pay a big premium. I went to three auctions and called a few others. Never had many cow/calf pairs (maybe ten) for sale and they'd split them up most of the time because even the thin cows were being sent to slaughter. Only had a catwalk to look at the cattle from, and can't judge cattle very good if they aren't walking and you aren't on the ground with them. In the auction pen, you have about 20 seconds to judge whether or not it is a good cow before the packers are finished bidding, which made it interesting, as they are simply looking for a cow that can live long enough to get to the packing plant to be butchered and don't care about confirmation characteristics.
Ended up with a black corriente, a hereford, an F1 Braford, what looks like an angus/Holstein or maybe Angus/Hereford cross with a 3/4 angus heifer calf, a red cow, and a rwf cow. I know the condition on some of them is not great, as I had to take what was available. Already put out a 200 Lb protein tub to try to put some weight on them before breeding. Will purchase a black angus bull to put on them around December 20th. All but the young heifer will be mature enough to be bred by then.
I did learn that a red angus calf that looks just as good as the black angus calf standing next to it at the auction will get docked in central Texas, so there is really no choice but for your terminal cross to be black unless cattle raising is a luxury for you. Not a luxury for me.
I took the angle of starting slow and having the aim of breeding up to bwf/black cattle that will throw 3/4 angus calves. All told, I spent about $4000 on these seven head of cattle, and the red cow is 7 months bred, with the possibility of a few of the others being bred as well. So a pretty economical start. We'll see how it goes from here.
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andybob
Well-known member
See if there are any Mashona or high % Mashona/Angus crosses, they are heat tolerant, small calves which are active, and the home bred heifers will thrive in harsh conditions and very fertile. The breed is becoming very popular, with an increasing demand for good heifers suitable for upgrading. Tuli are also a good option, but are less available after several the original importers, being older cattlemen, passed on and their heirs sold up the ranches and stock. The breed is making a comeback but will take time to recover numbers after losing five 150 cow studs in a year.
Just curious, and wanted to ask you something about the black Corr. How old? Bred? and if so to what? Very curious to see what she brought, if you don't mind me asking? Or PM me if you don't want to post the price publicly.
rocfarm
Well-known member
Don't think they'd do well at auction, but the breed is interesting. My place is 50% cover, so cattle have lots of shade during the day, so heat tolerance not as big of an issue.
rocfarm
Well-known member
Black corriente is about 12 months old. Would bring about $250 to $350. Not bred.
The corrientes, Longhorns, hereford, charolais, etc. also seemed to have less recovery value than the black and bwf cows at auction. This actually does affect the bottom line a bit. Several hereford fats sold for way less than their angus equivalents. Can't remember seeing any Hereford steers sell, but red calves were always discounted, sometimes heavily. Saw 1000lb Longhorns go for $350.
Drove hundreds of miles across central Texas last summer. Over and over again the experienced ranchers seem to point you to rwf/bwf/black cows with a black angus bull, judging by what they have grazing their pastures. Nobody that was an old hand tried to disabuse me of the idea when I asked at the auction.
Hoping to get some heifers out of the f1 braford and the Hereford. Will probably give those female calves the first shot at being held back as replacements. If bred to an angus bull, their progeny would throw 3/4 angus calves and still have lots of hybrid vigor as momma cows. We'll see how it goes.
dave_shelby
Well-known member
I've never seen any mashona or tuli cattle in virginia. I do see some in other locations but reasonable prices seem to be confined to states like TX and AL.
rocfarm
Well-known member
I've never seen any Tuli or Mashona that held a good market value in Texas. Seems to be a higher-risk bet that also requires the producer to do special marketing that he/she may or may not get paid for. Even the Pharo Cattle Co in Texas tends to breed the Mashona back to red angus and market them as grass-fed genetics, which is still a niche market. When recession hits, that market might suffer more…
Wouldn't recommend them in Virginia anyway. Climate is not right for that type of cattle IMO.
I'm still convinced that keeping equipment, operational, and cattle costs low is the way to start out. Less likely to face huge expense setbacks.
Now focused on managing through the rest of this nasty drought and getting some calves on the ground next fall.
Will keep praying for rain. Blessings on all ya'll cattle folks out there, whatever your operational model.
That's about what she'd bring even if she wasn;t black, in most places. Breed her to a pb Angus and her first calf will bring 2 to 3 times what you gave for her. We have done those for years with about 120 of them, and at 6 mos they all weaned 500 lbs average, black, polled calves. Folks have been breeding for black Corrrientes because of this, and I have seem those cows go for $5-$600. People use commercial Angus bulls, or black bulls of some other breeds, and get non-black calves. Totally unneccessary to pay extra for black Corr cows...just use a pb Angus bull. Actually, the past 3 years we used Brangus and Ultrablack bulls,, but they a were all honozygous black
rocfarm
Well-known member
I can believe it. She's pretty gentle, but when I looked at the internet videos of corriente cattle, they seemed to be able to run and jump like deer in many cases and I didn't want the hassle. I think the one I have was bottle fed as a baby. She started coming by and standing at the fence to the cabin once a day waiting for me to cube her. The BWF would join her, so I think she was a pet.
I definitely think the smartest thing starting out is to buy whatever cows are cheap and just put the bull you want back on them and wait for your genetics to get where you want them.
Otherwise, you end up where this guy is... but I guess the videos can pay for his mistakes.
rocfarm
Well-known member
Quick update!
The $450 red cow I bought in early August has calved. The auction house said she was 7 months pregnant, so they were pretty spot on if not a little early.
Needless to say, she calved on her own, per my title of this thread. Also, it seems the newly flush grass from the recent rains along with the cooked protein tub I have out has helped the cow to even improve her flesh a bit, in spite of calving. She had a pretty bad limp at purchase, but that has faded to be almost unnoticeable. Her bag looks pretty good to me, and, as I don't want heavy milkers, I'm pretty happy that she looks like a medium/light milker. Might even give her another go if she can get bred this December and will add weight next spring. If she doesn't breed back, I'll sell her with her calf.
The little bull calf looks healthy. I think it weighed about 65lbs at birth. Wish it was black, but other than that, still a good chance to make some money on this. If I can sell the calf for $650 or above, it should pay for the cow and the tub/transport/cubes I'll have spent on this cow by then. Plan on selling it at the earliest next July. Hoping for 650lbs or greater weight. If prices are not good, might wait till December.
The $450 red cow I bought in early August has calved. The auction house said she was 7 months pregnant, so they were pretty spot on if not a little early.
Needless to say, she calved on her own, per my title of this thread. Also, it seems the newly flush grass from the recent rains along with the cooked protein tub I have out has helped the cow to even improve her flesh a bit, in spite of calving. She had a pretty bad limp at purchase, but that has faded to be almost unnoticeable. Her bag looks pretty good to me, and, as I don't want heavy milkers, I'm pretty happy that she looks like a medium/light milker. Might even give her another go if she can get bred this December and will add weight next spring. If she doesn't breed back, I'll sell her with her calf.
The little bull calf looks healthy. I think it weighed about 65lbs at birth. Wish it was black, but other than that, still a good chance to make some money on this. If I can sell the calf for $650 or above, it should pay for the cow and the tub/transport/cubes I'll have spent on this cow by then. Plan on selling it at the earliest next July. Hoping for 650lbs or greater weight. If prices are not good, might wait till December.
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Travlr
Well-known member
Per the title of the thread...
I've raised enough replacement heifers for sale to have an opinion. It seems like a lot of people are saving calves for replacements out of first calf heifers and by "easy calving" bulls. My opinion... a recipe for weakening their herds. Maternal hips are more important than the size or shape of a calf... within reason. I like retaining heifers from proven cows over the age of eight, and from bulls with frame. In fact I avoid easy calving bulls after a cow is five.
I'll save a cow if a calf needs to be repositioned but she's a cull if the calf is in a proper position and needs to be pulled.
My two cents...
I've raised enough replacement heifers for sale to have an opinion. It seems like a lot of people are saving calves for replacements out of first calf heifers and by "easy calving" bulls. My opinion... a recipe for weakening their herds. Maternal hips are more important than the size or shape of a calf... within reason. I like retaining heifers from proven cows over the age of eight, and from bulls with frame. In fact I avoid easy calving bulls after a cow is five.
I'll save a cow if a calf needs to be repositioned but she's a cull if the calf is in a proper position and needs to be pulled.
My two cents...
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rocfarm
Well-known member
Research I've seen says don't retain heifers out of heifer bulls, but calving ease bulls not necessarily off limits. There seems to be a slight difference, with some 'calving ease' bulls' genetics giving you a lower birth rate but a super fast adg and some frame, while a heifer bull is lighter and seems to only give you a light birthweight and smaller frame and adg.
Retaining a first-calf heifer's heifer calf is less clear. Some say it's ok, others say wait until the cow's 3rd calf and later if you want the best replacements. I'll do that once my herd gets to an average age of 5 or so, but early on here I'm going to simply use confirmation. Also, I'd imagine that, after this drought breaks, you are going to see lots of replacements cows that were heifers out of first calf heifers simply because ranchers will need anything that can breed.
As far as hip size, I thought what you said makes sense as well, but the science I found on that says that smaller hipped cattle have smaller calves, so you can't just measure the size of the birthing canal and then lower heifer calving problems. Maybe there has to be a birthing canal size to frame score ratio calculation for that to work well, but I never got that far. If one uses birthing canal size alone, I imagine going that route gives you pretty big mommas in a hurry, as bigger canals probably mean larger framed cows. But my goal is 1000lb cows that wean 500lb calves at 205 days, so I don't want big framed, high-maintenance cattle. I want cattle that calve on their own and are efficient on unfertilized grass, mineral, and cooked 30% protein tubs in winter/drought.
The only sure fire way to have minimal calving ease seemed to be to get a corriente bull or a 'grass' bull like a Mashona/red angus cross and breed them to your heifers and have a 45 to 65 lb first calf. But that is quite expensive, as your first calf out of that cow will small-framed and be docked pretty heavily, and if you can only afford one bull, it definitely doesn't make sense to let that bull breed your mature cows.
I'm gonna go with black angus bulls and hope for a first calf of around 75 lbs. if losses are acceptable, I'll stick with it. If not, I'll get a small-framed bull, I guess. Maybe even never retain heifers and just buy 3-year-old bred cows and then breed back to a regular herd bull.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
My heifers represent the best genetics in my herd - IF - I am truly a BREEDER. I would never dream of "throwing away" my first calf heifers' daughters. Everything is relative. Yes, my cows are bigger than what you are shooting for, but they also have and raise bigger calves.
I don't breed my heifers to a "heifer bull" - what a waste. I raise my heifers to their potential growth and breed them to a decent CE rated bull, but also a bull with growth - called a "spread" bull. In this industry, we CAN have our cake and eat it too. Through breeder info and breed associations providing data back, we have developed a lot of CE/growth bulls. I expect my heifers to have an 80-90# calf - sometimes bigger - on their own. I don't push my heifers, but I winter them on 5#/hd/day whole shell corn, great hay and great mineral and top notch health program. At the high price of WSC today, that's about $125 grain cost to get my heifers to their potential growth for breeding. They are lean but grown out at breeding time - bred to calve at 23 to 24 months of age. They do a lot of growing in the summer on lush pastures.
Every program is different, but I cannot see putting 2 years in a heifer and not planning to utilize her daughters as replacements. Better off selling all calves - males & females - and plan on buying all your replacements as bred cows, so you can use a great walking bull.
I don't breed my heifers to a "heifer bull" - what a waste. I raise my heifers to their potential growth and breed them to a decent CE rated bull, but also a bull with growth - called a "spread" bull. In this industry, we CAN have our cake and eat it too. Through breeder info and breed associations providing data back, we have developed a lot of CE/growth bulls. I expect my heifers to have an 80-90# calf - sometimes bigger - on their own. I don't push my heifers, but I winter them on 5#/hd/day whole shell corn, great hay and great mineral and top notch health program. At the high price of WSC today, that's about $125 grain cost to get my heifers to their potential growth for breeding. They are lean but grown out at breeding time - bred to calve at 23 to 24 months of age. They do a lot of growing in the summer on lush pastures.
Every program is different, but I cannot see putting 2 years in a heifer and not planning to utilize her daughters as replacements. Better off selling all calves - males & females - and plan on buying all your replacements as bred cows, so you can use a great walking bull.
Travlr
Well-known member
The biggest issue I see in using replacements from first calf heifers is longevity and fertility. I want heifers from cows with some age on them because they have proven their abilities in several respects. Yes, good heifers can birth larger calves. I just use low birth weight bulls as transitional. You can still have LBW and high rate of gain.
Dave
Well-known member
I have always been scare of 3-year old bred cows. I know a couple guys who keep 100% of there heifers. Calf them all out. Then only keep the ones who raised the best calves. They sell the rest as coming 3 years old bred cows. So buying their 3 year old cows is baically buying their culls. And those 3 year old cows generally sell for a premium.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Why would first calf heifers NOT be "longevity and fertility"? They are calving at 23 or 24 months of age (fertility), out of COWS from your herd. Yes, there will be a few 2 yr olds calving that are out of 2 yr olds, but, if you are BREEDING cattle, you probably have the Granddam proving longevity.
Like I said, lots of different programs. Mine is based on easy keeping fertile myrtles. I don't preach longevity, but believe me, it is the basis of any good herd. I have cow family genetics that go back to 1972. The largest cow family is my #3 family and it goes back to one of my donor cows K1 (3K in the herd). That's 22 years of one cow family genetics representing about 1/3 of my herd. 6 out of 7 in my show string this year were #3 cow family offspring. I never would have built that family if I didn't keep heifers out of heifers.
Like I said, lots of different programs. Mine is based on easy keeping fertile myrtles. I don't preach longevity, but believe me, it is the basis of any good herd. I have cow family genetics that go back to 1972. The largest cow family is my #3 family and it goes back to one of my donor cows K1 (3K in the herd). That's 22 years of one cow family genetics representing about 1/3 of my herd. 6 out of 7 in my show string this year were #3 cow family offspring. I never would have built that family if I didn't keep heifers out of heifers.
