Best Cattle Crosses For Unassisted Calving

[rocfarm]

I have always been scare of 3-year old bred cows. I know a couple guys who keep 100% of there heifers. Calf them all out. Then only keep the ones who raised the best calves. They sell the rest as coming 3 years old bred cows. So buying their 3 year old cows is baically buying their culls. And those 3 year old cows generally sell for a premium.

Yup. When you are starting out, you basically begin with other people's culls unless you pay a premium. The problem is, paying a premium doesn't pencil out for the small producer on a budget.
One of the things I have enjoyed was trying to be shrewd enough to figure out which cows would be the best culls to buy and also trying to time the drought to get a few that perhaps wouldn't be culled in normal times, all within the constraints of an auction setting.

But risk is high. That's why I feel lucky on that little bull calf. If mom will get him to 500 lbs or so, I should make some money. I'll post here how much my bull costs and how the auction goes when I sell.

Another thing I'm enjoying is the promise of being able to run cattle without feeding hay. It's kind of freeing to be able to use cooked tubs and stockpiled forage. Even though the tubs are expensive, so far it's looking viable.

 

[rocfarm]

Why would first calf heifers NOT be "longevity and fertility"? They are calving at 23 or 24 months of age (fertility), out of COWS from your herd. Yes, there will be a few 2 yr olds calving that are out of 2 yr olds, but, if you are BREEDING cattle, you probably have the Granddam proving longevity.
Like I said, lots of different programs. Mine is based on easy keeping fertile myrtles. I don't preach longevity, but believe me, it is the basis of any good herd. I have cow family genetics that go back to 1972. The largest cow family is my #3 family and it goes back to one of my donor cows K1 (3K in the herd). That's 22 years of one cow family genetics representing about 1/3 of my herd. 6 out of 7 in my show string this year were #3 cow family offspring. I never would have built that family if I didn't keep heifers out of heifers.

Read that yesterday. If you have genetics you want to keep, then heifers out of heifers seem to be a must. But I'm not too interested in purebred genetics at this point.

I agree with the comment above that the best replacements come from older cows that are proven. Maternal traits are not that heritable, so if speaking purely in terms of a good, productive cow, then it seems to always be see what you get out of that 1st calf heifer in regards to how she does on that first birth and then make a culling decision.

Older cows tend to give the best care as well (they give more milk as they mature (up to about 8 or 9 years) and know how to care for the calf a bit better, so you are probably going to have some benefits for that replacement based on no rough patches early in life for the calf (easy birthing, likely larger weaning weight, etc.). And she likely has a good teacher in her older momma. These advantages probably make a better replacement cow as well.

I look forward to the day I have some older cows to make me some replacements. I'll try to find some statistics on this sometime. Would be interesting to see if it makes a financial difference.

 

[Brute 23]

I agree with a lot of what @Jeanne - Simme Valley is saying. I will not hesitate to retain a heifer out of a heifer, especially if it's from a known cow family in the herd.

I've never got on the heifer bull band wagon. Getting a sub-par calf a couple months early is pissing in the wind. I let heifers get good age and size and they go to work. I do try to use younger bulls if I can because of the size of mature bulls some times but I'm not worried about calf size.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

But I do agree, 2 years invested in a heifer is a lot of money and time. If you are starting out, and don't HAVE cow families, sell everything and buy mature bred cows. Some will fail, but some will work to start your own cow families.
There is no way I could purchase females for my replacements. My herd is different than most.

 

[rocfarm]

But I do agree, 2 years invested in a heifer is a lot of money and time. If you are starting out, and don't HAVE cow families, sell everything and buy mature bred cows. Some will fail, but some will work to start your own cow families.
There is no way I could purchase females for my replacements. My herd is different than most.

Or spend $4000 on a cheap herd and breed upwards over time. Lots of poorer boys have gotten into the market that way. So far, including feed, I'm at 4470. Will cost about 1000 for a young black bull for a grand total of a 9-head herd. 6 of them will be breedable in Dec (although three more of them could already be bred if they bred back before I got them). Including tubs, I think I should be at 6000 expenses by next fall. The risk is in how many cows/calves I lose, I think, and this persistent la Nina.

Of course, I'm not adding in fuel, water troughs, or the four weeks I just spent cutting fence stays out of cedar and patching fence, working on the road, the 800 I spent for the remedy ultra and diesel when I was spraying 60 acres of mesquite for a week, or the 40 hours I spent on my tractor to fix my two ponds. I guess I'll call the fence building a hobby pursuit, and the water trough installations, mesquite spraying, and pond fixes wildlife management. The road maintenance and tractor expenses can go under real estate investment. There. Now I can say I still have a chance to make money on cattle!

 

[tex452]

I once bought some F1 brangus heifers, I asked the guy which ones were out of heifers, he said it didn't matter, then he ask me if I threw my first kid away.
I bought 2 bunches from him and culled them later.
They all turned out pretty good, you just couldn't get around them when they had babies, they would run you all over the pasture.

 

[Ebenezer]

"The biggest issue I see in using replacements from first calf heifers is longevity and fertility."

"I agree with the comment above that the best replacements come from older cows that are proven. Maternal traits are not that heritable, so if speaking purely in terms of a good, productive cow, then it seems to always be see what you get out of that 1st calf heifer in regards to how she does on that first birth and then make a culling decision.

Older cows tend to give the best care as well (they give more milk as they mature (up to about 8 or 9 years) and know how to care for the calf a bit better, so you are probably going to have some benefits for that replacement based on no rough patches early in life for the calf (easy birthing, likely larger weaning weight, etc.). And she likely has a good teacher in her older momma. These advantages probably make a better replacement cow as well."

Two quotes that dwell on old time thoughts but not much proof in a herd that selects for females rather than terminal traits. If you raise enough heifers and use the dam and grand dam as the focus of the heifer you will be amazed how well heifers will do. The biggest problem that people have in heifer problems, in general, is the unknown side of the sire. If AI, many are by the young bull of the year. If pasture bred, the bull turnover is real and many need a new source and a new bloodline to feel safe. And Bonsma type selection will help in the females to speed the process. But nobody can make a dollar off of you if you do that so it is not popular.

 

[simme]

I agree with the comment above that the best replacements come from older cows that are proven. Maternal traits are not that heritable,

To me, those two sentences seem to not support each other. Getting replacements from proven cows seems good. But the second sentence that maternal traits are not very heritable seems to cast doubt on whether a replacement from a proven cow will carry those same traits from the cow.
I do believe in the value of cow families. Sure makes more sense to me than keeping replacements out of poor performing cows. And cow performance includes way more than just growth and pounds.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@simme - absolutely. A great cow is an easy keeper, structurally sound, fertile, good/workable temperament AND raises you a great calf each and every 12 months.

 

[Brute 23]

There shouldnt be any noticeable difference in the mothering of a calf from a heifer to a cow. Raising a calf should be in their blood. I've watched heifer stand there and let a calf check them for milk when they weren't even bred. Also seen them come defend a calf when they weren't even bred.

If you won't have heifers raising calves when they are still raising themselves... it's amazing what kind of calf they can produce.

 

[Travlr]

@simme - absolutely. A great cow is an easy keeper, structurally sound, fertile, good/workable temperament AND raises you a great calf each and every 12 months.

Yup... and that's exactly why I harvest replacements from older cows rather than heifers.

I've always kept a "core herd" and a terminal herd. The terminal cattle I might keep a calf from as a replacement from a heifer, though unlikely. The cows in the terminal herd get cycled through, bought and sold, and usually don't last more than 3/4 years. They are managed differently than the core herd.

The core herd is always smaller, and what I keep replacements from. By replacements I mean replacements for the core herd as well as replacement heifers I sell to others. I also buy older cows as you describe, "easy keeper, structurally sound, fertile, good/workable temperament AND raises you a great calf each and every 12 months." from people culling their cows due strictly to age. People that won't keep a cow over ten years old are my targeted source for cows to raise replacement heifers from. As long as they can raise a heavy calf and remain in good condition doing it, I keep them. The heifers I keep from them as replacements may have a calf that is retained in the terminal herd, and as they get older they may be retained in the core herd. The people I sold replacements to might be the same people that sold me their cull cows.

It's just a way of doing business. So many of us find niches to take advantage of what others don't, because they are doing things another way that seems best for them. My cattle have never been registered, always commercial. But I've had people happy to buy what I produce. I've even had people want me to produce bulls for them, and I've sold some bulls, but I tend to stay away from that. Any bulls I've raised for my own use have been from AI sires.

Here I am talking like I'm still in business. LOL... It's been difficult to no longer have my cows. My ranches had different focuses because it was what worked in those locations. In Arkansas I was trading cattle much more, and in South Dakota I was raising more replacement heifers. But I still did both on both places.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

I pay particular attention to cow family when it comes to selecting heifers. I will not retain a calf from a 1st calf heifer especially
if it is from a new bull. This resulted in a very nice 1st calf heifer delivering what appeared to be an even nicer calf which I did not keep,
then going on to have 8 bull calves in a row! Just know quality has its reward and by the same token, its price,

 

[Ky hills]

For me, I really don't care if a calf is out of a heifer or a cow, as long as the heifer has taken care of and raised her calf.
If a heifer doesn't claim her calf, she is gone and the calf won't be kept as a replacement either.
Heifers calves may wean off smaller, but usually mature at a similar size to the others.
We breed our heifers Angus and Herefords at around 13-14 months now, used to religiously wait until 15 months when I had Charolais.
We use heifer bulls with some growth. Preferably Angus bulls.
I have used a average BW Hereford bull and had good results from him. Then once bought a Hereford bull at a registered sale promoted as a sleep all night calving ease bull. Didn't know much about Hereford pedigrees, and found out later he was the result of a fire and ice mating between a calving ease bull and a show bred high BW cow. His numbers said CE, but that was not the reality. We had several hard pulls that year from heifers. I also believe that using the same breed of bull as the heifers makes for smaller calves because the hybrid vigor starts at conception. We didn't have to pull calves from the straight Herefords and the one BWF heifer was an easier pull.
With a CE Angus bull the crossing effect doesn't seem as much of an issue.
Honestly, I can't fault anyone for using a longhorn, corriente, Jersey bulls on heifers if you aren't in a situation where you can watch them real close. Time is of the essence when calving assistance is needed, and a live calf is always worth more than a dead one. Then there is always the fact that complications can cause the heifer to not breed back as soon as she should too.
For most situations though, a CE Angus bull will be more than sufficient.

 

[Brute 23]

If you never gamble a little on heifers that you keep... you never know what you have. If you wait to keep heifers out of only proven cows you won't get many heifers out of that mating. Especially with bulls going in and out 2 to 3 times per cow.

As an example I had a cow develope a questionable bag at around 11 or 12 several years back. It's hard to know the exact reason but I culled her when it got dry. It made me nervous because I had 3 or 4 heifers out of her in production. I just noted in my spreadsheet "watch bag". The oldest offspring has gotten up to around her age now and some of the others are getting close. They have no issues. Not sure of the different bull helped or if it was environmental or what. If it had shown in the next offspring I would have just cut the whole family.

We wouldn't have lost any thing on them at that point. They would have sold as breds through the auction barn and some one on here would have gotten rich on them.

It really mitigates your risk if you cull hard, stay with good bulls, and keep the herd as closed as possible. Even the "risks"... are drastically cut down.

 

[rocfarm]

I once bought some F1 brangus heifers, I asked the guy which ones were out of heifers, he said it didn't matter, then he ask me if I threw my first kid away.
I bought 2 bunches from him and culled them later.
They all turned out pretty good, you just couldn't get around them when they had babies, they would run you all over the pasture.

Got 1 F-1 Braford at my place now. She's out of a first-calf heifer, and she's my favorite in my group. Got a BCS of over 6 now, and still not bred!

But I think she will try to stomp me one day if I'm not careful. In her 13 months of life, hasn't let anyone get within 40 yards. Won't even come to cubes unless I back off. Hope to find out next October that she makes a good, gentle mother. Bred back to a black bull she should eventually turn out some amazing replacement heifers, I'd think.

BTW, that guy's comeback is not scientific. It's emotional. And as someone who works with kids, I can tell you that there is quite a bit of research that says older humans make better parents as well. It's not about 'throwing away' the kid, though. It should make us think about best management practices, like preschool, help from older people in the church, classes for young parents, etc.

Example for cattle: For that F1 I'm trying to get her closer to 70% or even 75% of mature body weight before trying breeding and shooting for BCS of 6.5, hoping to make up for any care deficiencies she probably suffered as the first calf of a heifer and give her the best chance to breed back at 3 months after her first calf is born.

 

[rocfarm]

To me, those two sentences seem to not support each other. Getting replacements from proven cows seems good. But the second sentence that maternal traits are not very heritable seems to cast doubt on whether a replacement from a proven cow will carry those same traits from the cow.
I do believe in the value of cow families. Sure makes more sense to me than keeping replacements out of poor performing cows. And cow performance includes way more than just growth and pounds.

You seem to be assuming that I would expect maternal traits to be highly consistent in the heifers of older cows and that I wouldn't cull replacements from the older cows based on maternal deficiencies. I wouldn't expect consistency and I would still expect to cull heavily.

I'm talking more on how calves seem to be prenatally affected by the cow in the womb as well as receive better postpartum nutrition and care from the older cow, which gives it a better chance of not being culled for reasons other than genetics, I think. And one doesn't just cull because of maternal traits. Weight gain, frame size, feed efficiency, confirmation that could affect longevity and others also come into play. These culling reasons are not necessarily maternal.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that, given the choice and all other things equal (same look, birth dates, etc.) (although things usually aren't equal because calves from older cows tend to look better than calves out of first-calf heifers), I'd lean towards retaining the heifers out of the older cows in my herd because of the likelihood of having less developmental issues resulting from a suboptimal start to life. If I needed one replacement, I'd keep two or three heifers out of my older cows and cull one or two of these after their first calf. If I kept two, that's great. No need to raise replacements next year.

But if my older cows' heifers didn't look good and I had a first-calf heifer that dropped a beauty and was doing a gang-buster job, I'd be flexible.

So replacement maxim for ROC:

All other things being relatively equal: heavily favor replacements from older cows.

 

[rocfarm]

There shouldnt be any noticeable difference in the mothering of a calf from a heifer to a cow. Raising a calf should be in their blood. I've watched heifer stand there and let a calf check them for milk when they weren't even bred. Also seen them come defend a calf when they weren't even bred.

If you won't have heifers raising calves when they are still raising themselves... it's amazing what kind of calf they can produce.

I've wondered if I could figure out which replacement heifers would make the best mommas by watching how they act around other cows' calves.

I've got two heifers now. One couldn't care less about the new baby calf born last week-has shown little to no interest. The other one seems to want to babysit it all the time. Is the babysitter going to be a better momma? Hope to find out.

 

[rocfarm]

Yup... and that's exactly why I harvest replacements from older cows rather than heifers.

I've always kept a "core herd" and a terminal herd. The terminal cattle I might keep a calf from as a replacement from a heifer, though unlikely. The cows in the terminal herd get cycled through, bought and sold, and usually don't last more than 3/4 years. They are managed differently than the core herd.

The core herd is always smaller, and what I keep replacements from. By replacements I mean replacements for the core herd as well as replacement heifers I sell to others. I also buy older cows as you describe, "easy keeper, structurally sound, fertile, good/workable temperament AND raises you a great calf each and every 12 months." from people culling their cows due strictly to age. People that won't keep a cow over ten years old are my targeted source for cows to raise replacement heifers from. As long as they can raise a heavy calf and remain in good condition doing it, I keep them. The heifers I keep from them as replacements may have a calf that is retained in the terminal herd, and as they get older they may be retained in the core herd. The people I sold replacements to might be the same people that sold me their cull cows.

It's just a way of doing business. So many of us find niches to take advantage of what others don't, because they are doing things another way that seems best for them. My cattle have never been registered, always commercial. But I've had people happy to buy what I produce. I've even had people want me to produce bulls for them, and I've sold some bulls, but I tend to stay away from that. Any bulls I've raised for my own use have been from AI sires.

Here I am talking like I'm still in business. LOL... It's been difficult to no longer have my cows. My ranches had different focuses because it was what worked in those locations. In Arkansas I was trading cattle much more, and in South Dakota I was raising more replacement heifers. But I still did both on both places.

The average cow only stays in the cow herd to have three calves, then it's culled.

I definitely wouldn't cull an older cow that had good condition and hasn't yet missed. Taking money off the table.

 

[rocfarm]

If you never gamble a little on heifers that you keep... you never know what you have. If you wait to keep heifers out of only proven cows you won't get many heifers out of that mating. Especially with bulls going in and out 2 to 3 times per cow.

As an example I had a cow develope a questionable bag at around 11 or 12 several years back. It's hard to know the exact reason but I culled her when it got dry. It made me nervous because I had 3 or 4 heifers out of her in production. I just noted in my spreadsheet "watch bag". The oldest offspring has gotten up to around her age now and some of the others are getting close. They have no issues. Not sure of the different bull helped or if it was environmental or what. If it had shown in the next offspring I would have just cut the whole family.

We wouldn't have lost any thing on them at that point. They would have sold as breds through the auction barn and some one on here would have gotten rich on them.

It really mitigates your risk if you cull hard, stay with good bulls, and keep the herd as closed as possible. Even the "risks"... are drastically cut down.

Not an option for a super small herd. The bull prices just don't pencil out. AI either.

 

[Travlr]

Not an option for a super small herd. The bull prices just don't pencil out. AI either.

AI pencils out with a single cow. Why wouldn't it with more?