anyone NOT use mineral?

[Banjo]

Theoretically the minerals increase the microbes in the Rumen, according to mineral salesmen, when the microbes get to a high level then they start dying and become pure protein for the cow.....that is why the dairy farmer's cows went down when he took away the mineral. My brother used to be a district manager for Moorman's Feed years ago and he has told me that same similar story about dairy farmers especially, that would get on their program for awhile and then switch to a cheaper brand and actually the production would go up for a few days(the farmer would think its the new feed making the difference) because all the microbes in the rumen were dying off and providing pure protein to the cow.
My problem with minerals is how can a cow absorb ground limestone, iron oxide which is simply rust off the sides of barges, all these are inorganic minerals that the body can't absorb...man or cow. Our extension agent says one should never buy a mineral that is RED because it is full of iron oxide as a cheap filler. I learned from general nutrition 101 years ago that minerals have to come from plant kingdom for a person to absorb it, is a cow any different? By the way, how many people on this thread take a multi-vitamin/mineral every day? I don't ...maybe I should but I feel like I get it from my food especially if I eat lots of greens and fruits and veggies.
Doesn't a cow eat healthier than any of us do? if she has green grass in front of her and good quality hay that hasn't been rained on three times before its baled. The experts say that when hay loses its green color then all its viamin A is lost

 

[Anonymous]

Humans have a better variety of feed to get their minerals from. Cows can get a lot from the grass if it's good grass. But every area is different. When was the last time you heard of a cow in Nevada getting veggies trucked in from Tennessee, Iowa, etc.
Comparing humans to cows is a Poor analogy if you ask me.
Different areas of the country are difficient in different
Intake and vitamins. Cows don't have the luxury of trucked in complete grass unless we do it.

 

[Banjo]

Humans have a better variety of feed to get their minerals from. Cows can get a lot from the grass if it's good grass. But every area is different. When was the last time you heard of a cow in Nevada getting veggies trucked in from Tennessee, Iowa, etc.
Comparing humans to cows is a Poor analogy if you ask me.
Different areas of the country are difficient in different
Intake and vitamins. Cows don't have the luxury of trucked in complete grass unless we do it.

Humans and Cows are both mammals and we have much in common phisiologically.The exceptions mainly are our digestive systems. Cows as you should know are Herbivores, their natural diet is Grass and or Hay which is dried Grass. Cows and Humans both need salt. When farmers start feeding their Cows corn, corn stalks, Sbean meal, molasses, sweet feed etc, they are getting away from a Cows natural diet. Now I'm not saying never under any circumstances you shouldn't feed minerals or tubs but at least it should be of the highest quality. a lot of this inorganic junk that we give our Cows sometimes probably isn't helping them any. It helps the feed store owner. Everyone is going to have 1 in 10 Cows that is going to have some kind of problem. My brother that I mentioned who was with Moorman's Feed at one time, still has Cows and he feeds the best minerals that Moormans has ,but he will still have one out of the 12 or so head that he has, that won't breed back or has arthritis or something. Most cattlemen don't cull their cows hard enough.

 

[Anonymous]

Most people with cattle don't have grass or hay that meet all the requirements. Sure they do ok on grass alone. But they do much better with a good mineral program. Good as in good chelated minerals. Of course there is a difference in minerals ability to be drawn up into the blood stream. But most mineral manufacturers have that figured out these days.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

The grass the cows eat is only as good as the nutrients in the ground "feeding" the grass. Grasses many years ago, had more minerals in it, but the more we expect to "take" off our land, the less is there to feed the grasses. We as humans, eat food supplied from all over. Very few people's complete diet is strickly "locally grown".
If you ever did blood testing on your cows to see where their mineral levels were, you might be surprised. We did Selenium testing, adding more SE to the mineral slowly, til we got to triple the gov't legal dose (over a year's testing).
Cattle will "get by" without supplimented minerals, but slowly more & more subtle problems will arise.

 

[Amo]

I speed read a good chunk of this thread. Ill share some personal experience.

Back in 2008 phos went sky high I kinda went this route. Our extnesion agents did a huge study out here on what kind of minerals we got out of our grass, water, and hay. Proably about 100 sq mile area. Pretty uniform for grasses, water, climate. They determined that over 4 years all we needed was a little phos, copper, & zinc. Maybe more I don't remember all of them. Had people using this "mix" for several years with good results before I tried it. The agent said if it made you sleep better at night some A,D, &E wouldn't be the end of the world. So thats what I fed. It was a custom mix mineral that wound up 68% of a bag was rock salt. After all the old timers just fed salt or nothing and got along. Plus he had producers already getting along fine with it, so I felt pretty confident. Well it was a wet year. Grass got tall, and lots of flies. Now I don't know of any mineral defencey that causes pink eye, but I had a mell of a hess! Some of it was I cant rope and no dart gun. Right during haying season, so I didn't treat same day I seen one. It would spread like wild fire. That summer I treated (between "need to" and wet eye prevention) 2/3 or more of my calves. A touch of foot rot as well. Something that I usually don't have much problem with.

The moral of the story....as the extension agent said...mineral is an insurance policy. If you want to feed a great mineral you shouldn't have much trouble. In his research it showed that the enviroment should provide a big chunk of what I needed. So he said you want a good coverage insurance policy with a high premium and no problems...go ahead and feed a good mineral. Wouldn't have much problems, but a lot would be going out the back end. You can cheapen your premium and treat the few odd balls that might come up sick and be money ahead...since the enviroment should provide what the cattle need.

Well I can't rope a calf head on a straw bale. So I had to drive everything home, sort, and doctor. Money on vaccine, time away from haying, lost weight gain...I went full circle in reverse! Vaccinate for pink eye, spray for flies, and I haven't gone hog wild on expensive mineral...but I make sure its out there. I don't just put it out when I happen to remember it. None of my problems according to experts should of come about because I took mineral away. Seams like Ive have elimenated pasture doctering since. Infact Ive heard (word of mouth) of guys doing the "organic" /drug free thing using a very high dollar mineral and having no problems. Not cheap mineral either. IDK if their premium covers the cost or not. I got a neighbor that feeds same quality of mineral as I do, maybe gets behind about keeping it out...not as bad as a lot of people I know. Seams like they always are treating something. Of course they are running 4-500 cows bread heiffers etc. vs. my 140...law of averages will play in there a little bit.

I guess if you can watch your cattle close enough that you can catch and treat sickness you can proably get away without mineral. Your always going to have some opens. You just have to know where that economic threashold is and not go hog wild. You could have chealeted mineral, with a multi-min shot, and who know what else and still have opens. Now if your doing embryo work and selling 40K cows or 10K bulls thats one thing. If your just selling at the barn, well that threashold is a tad lower. Your the only one that can answer the question of weather to feed or not.

 

[TexasBred]

Theoretically the minerals increase the microbes in the Rumen, according to mineral salesmen, when the microbes get to a high level then they start dying and become pure protein for the cow.....that is why the dairy farmer's cows went down when he took away the mineral. My brother used to be a district manager for Moorman's Feed years ago and he has told me that same similar story about dairy farmers especially, that would get on their program for awhile and then switch to a cheaper brand and actually the production would go up for a few days(the farmer would think its the new feed making the difference) because all the microbes in the rumen were dying off and providing pure protein to the cow.
My problem with minerals is how can a cow absorb ground limestone, iron oxide which is simply rust off the sides of barges, all these are inorganic minerals that the body can't absorb...man or cow. Our extension agent says one should never buy a mineral that is RED because it is full of iron oxide as a cheap filler. I learned from general nutrition 101 years ago that minerals have to come from plant kingdom for a person to absorb it, is a cow any different? By the way, how many people on this thread take a multi-vitamin/mineral every day? I don't ...maybe I should but I feel like I get it from my food especially if I eat lots of greens and fruits and veggies.
Doesn't a cow eat healthier than any of us do? if she has green grass in front of her and good quality hay that hasn't been rained on three times before its baled. The experts say that when hay loses its green color then all its viamin A is lost

Tell the mineral salesman to get another job...mineral has nothing to do with microbes and has little to do with milk production unless your friend had a custom mineral containing a rumen buffer and was fed at the rate of around 1 lb. per head per day. If so then the cattle probably developed acidosis which is caused by starch overload not excessive protein. Ground limestone is 100% organic. Where do you thin it comes from?? Oxides and sulfates have a place in all minerals but chelates or amino acid complexes are much more biodegradeable. Most of what used to be "red iron oxide" is no more than synthetic red pigment now and contains no iron at all so don't let the color food you. Actually a cow does not have a very varied diet other than the variety of weeds in the grass. The diet simply changes due to digestibility and amount of protein in it. When you buy your next bag of mineral I'd check vitamin content very closely. These are just as important if not more so than the actual minerals. 60+% salt in anything is too much to expect any level of consumption that would be beneficial to anything.

 

[Banjo]

Limestone is Organic in the sense that it comes from rock out of the ground. But it is considered and Inorganic form, it comes from rock. Just like rust on a plow share is iron oxide, the iron is oxidized by oxygen which causes rust, but that again is an inorganic form of iron. I've been told before that a Cow can absorb ground limestone, maybe they can, maybe they can't, if they can it is not the best source of calcium. IMO limestone needs to fed to the soil and the plants in turn absorb it then it becomes organic....meaning it comes from something that was alive or living.Did you ever hear a nutritionist say that you get all the calcium you need from greens? Why are cows any different. Too much of something is worse than not enough.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Thank you TB - I wasn't knowledgeable enough to disagree with the microbes/protein theory - but I sure knew better. My husband was a nutritionist - so that's blah blah I don't memorize.

 

[TexasBred]

Limestone is Organic in the sense that it comes from rock out of the ground. But it is considered and Inorganic form, it comes from rock. Just like rust on a plow share is iron oxide, the iron is oxidized by oxygen which causes rust, but that again is an inorganic form of iron. I've been told before that a Cow can absorb ground limestone, maybe they can, maybe they can't, if they can it is not the best source of calcium. IMO limestone needs to fed to the soil and the plants in turn absorb it then it becomes organic....meaning it comes from something that was alive or living.Did you ever hear a nutritionist say that you get all the calcium you need from greens? Why are cows any different. Too much of something is worse than not enough.

Wrong again. Some things in excess are totally harmless. However, the right ratio of the various minerals in relation to other minerals is very critical. Formulation and feeding amounts determine how much is consumed and the margin of error can be pretty wide. As for grass, it contains some of whatever is in the soil where it grows (Not always in the right ratio either) and is typically very high in potassium which is an antagonist to the absorption of calcium and requiring additional calcium supplementation. Calcium carbonate works great for this.

 

[Banjo]

Thank you TB - I wasn't knowledgeable enough to disagree with the microbes/protein theory - but I sure knew better. My husband was a nutritionist - so that's blah blah I don't memorize.

You will have to take the microbes/protein theory up with the mineral companies especially Kent Feeds and Morrman's which is ADM now....they promote that idea. Kent actually has a tub which is called the Rumen Booster.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

My husband just read these posts and says TB is right on the money. Yes, a company can have a product to "boost rumen" but they can do that with sugar.

 

[TexasBred]

Thank you TB - I wasn't knowledgeable enough to disagree with the microbes/protein theory - but I sure knew better. My husband was a nutritionist - so that's blah blah I don't memorize.

You will have to take the microbes/protein theory up with the mineral companies especially Kent Feeds and Morrman's which is ADM now....they promote that idea. Kent actually has a tub which is called the Rumen Booster.

Banjo sounds like the salesman may have confused one specific mineral that just may have contained probiotics and or a custom mixing mineral with a run of the mill general purpose mineral. Maybe he can ask the question again at the next sales meeting and let the big dogs clear it up a bit for him. Salesmen in general shoot from the hip a lot when they have the floor as well as when they're scrambling. The Kent Tub could be a rumen booster....depends on what's in it.

 

[Mid South Guy]

TB is right on this one. Minerals are aborsbed into the bloodstream mainly in the intestines and pass thru the rumen having very little affect on the rumen enviorment with the exception of sodium bicarbonate, which acts as a buffer to neutralize the acid build up that occurs in the rumen of cattle on high starch diets (acidosis). Minerals that claim to improve the rumen microflora usally contain probiotics, protien, and/or carbohydrates that are actually doing the work, and not the minerals.

Most minerals are found naturally in a rock form. The reason they are absorable by plants and animals is that they are water souble. that's why we have hard water and need water softeners. Iron oxide is a stable, non-souble result of a chemical reaction between iron and oxygen. Whereas, ferrous (iron) sulfate is a naturally occuring substance and is water souble. In iron oxide the iron is not availible and in ferrous sulfate it is.

 

[RD-Sam]

How many cows is that mineral bill for?

I had it calculated at one point - that particular bill I believe was over 30 head. It was right in the window of necessary intake for either the bovatec or IGR for proper application rate.

That is extremely high for 30 head. I had 15 head on mineral over the winter and at one point they were going through mineral like crazy in December and January, but even at that it won't be more than $600 for the year. I think what happened was the hay wasn't very good quality and it caused them to consume more than normal. We used that hay up and started them on another lot and they went back to normal. I use Vitaferm Cattlemans Blend through the year, except in the spring we switch to a high mag blend. I bought it at $22 per 50 pound bag, pretty good deal.

 

[RD-Sam]

In one sentence you say it's not a protein tub, in the other you say it is.
What your talking about is a feed suppliment protein tub with minerals in it.
Not loose minerals.
And then you say your spending 6k a year. But theyre only eating 500 lbs a month. Those tubs would be 250 bucks each. Unless your leaving more details out and not even sure what it is you're putting out.

Crystalyx calls it a mineral tub with protein in it, not me. In fact, you can get various levels of protein in your mineral tub. They are designed so that they get all the mineral they need with whatever protein level you think your hay lacks.

The 500 lbs a month was a wrong number, it's 1000 lbs - 4 tubs a month - my deepest regrets for the innacuracy. They are about $120 each.

Now that we've picked all the fly shyt out of the pepper - does anyone NOT use mineral and what's your experience?

Yep, mine went without mineral for a couple of years, and they looked like shyte, one cow in particular weighed 1150 pounds at weaning, now she weighs about 1450 at weaning, she also weans about 200 pounds more calf. Have another that weighed around 1200 at weaning, now over 1400, she also weans 200 pounds heavier calves. The little extras go a long way. You have something wrong for sure if they are consuming that much though, it's possible the product isn't any good, or they are trying to make up for something else they are lacking.

 

[TexasBred]

Mineral manufacturers add ingredients to the formulation to make the mix more palatable. It's a real fine balancing act tryng to figure out how much to include to get recommended consumption. Too much will cause them to overconsume it day in and day out. Too little and they don't eat enough. If the consumption is seasonal then the cattle obviously need the mineral but should never eat a huge amount more than the recommended amount.

 

[rockridgecattle]

We use minerals. However, the last 6 months the animals have consumed way less than they should. Practically nothing. We have noticed a significant difference compared to this time last year
Black cattle have a red tinge in the coat...sign of copper deficiency
All cattle coats look like crap
Calves coming out weak, not raring to go like normal years
Calves are needing treatment dosage of selenium rather than the preventative
Milk quality seems lacking
Case of lumpy jaw...which we had hoped we eliminated a while back
4 cases of mastitis, and the cows having a hard time getting better, last case 12 years ago
3 cases of bacterial pnemonia...hard to treat, cows taking a long time to recover, not had on the farm for 14years
2 cased of retained placenta, 1 not responding to treatment protocols
4 calves flat out post birthing, birthing ok, no sack around the face. Just try and get up then lay flat out.
40% of the calves have needed help sucking, 20% of them have required intervention more than once
This calving season is one i hope to forget sooner rather than later

 

[Banjo]

We use minerals. However, the last 6 months the animals have consumed way less than they should. Practically nothing. We have noticed a significant difference compared to this time last year
Black cattle have a red tinge in the coat...sign of copper deficiency
All cattle coats look like crap
Calves coming out weak, not raring to go like normal years
Calves are needing treatment dosage of selenium rather than the preventative
Milk quality seems lacking
Case of lumpy jaw...which we had hoped we eliminated a while back
4 cases of mastitis, and the cows having a hard time getting better, last case 12 years ago
3 cases of bacterial pnemonia...hard to treat, cows taking a long time to recover, not had on the farm for 14years
2 cased of retained placenta, 1 not responding to treatment protocols
4 calves flat out post birthing, birthing ok, no sack around the face. Just try and get up then lay flat out.
40% of the calves have needed help sucking, 20% of them have required intervention more than once
This calving season is one i hope to forget sooner rather than later

Sometimes things just go awry I think. Things can go fine for years and boom something or things happen like you have described that make you wonder what you did wrong. I know every year for me is a little bit different and I figure about 10-15 % problem rate is normal, be it calving issues or breeding back or something. Thats where hard culling comes in and should be taking place. This last year or so I have started feeding Redmond Natural sea salt, it is supposed to contain over 50 minerals mostly in trace amounts, so far so good. I don't think cattle get enough salt out of some of the mineral mixes, unless you just keep it before them at all times and then they can get too much of something else IMO. I think a good quality mineral/vitamin mix during the last trimester may be good to do if it is of the highest quality.

 

[Banjo]

We use minerals. However, the last 6 months the animals have consumed way less than they should. Practically nothing. We have noticed a significant difference compared to this time last year
Black cattle have a red tinge in the coat...sign of copper deficiency
All cattle coats look like crap
Calves coming out weak, not raring to go like normal years
Calves are needing treatment dosage of selenium rather than the preventative
Milk quality seems lacking
Case of lumpy jaw...which we had hoped we eliminated a while back
4 cases of mastitis, and the cows having a hard time getting better, last case 12 years ago
3 cases of bacterial pnemonia...hard to treat, cows taking a long time to recover, not had on the farm for 14years
2 cased of retained placenta, 1 not responding to treatment protocols
4 calves flat out post birthing, birthing ok, no sack around the face. Just try and get up then lay flat out.
40% of the calves have needed help sucking, 20% of them have required intervention more than once
This calving season is one i hope to forget sooner rather than later

This is my sixth year not having used any commercial fertilize, this is my first year doing intensive grazing, I already see I'm liking that. When I stopped using fertilize my grass kept growing believe it or not. Now I'm may have gotten some mileage out of the fertilize for a year or two that was already there, but not six years worth. I run about a hundred angus mixed cows and I have to say that since the commercial fertilize stopped the health problems have slowed way down. I still have 1 or 2 cows and 2 or 3 calves get pinkeye every year but it doesn't ever seem to go viral(everyone having it). I take a garden sprayer and mix a solution of sea salt in it and spray in their eyes and in clears it up I may have to do it twice. I seldom have one that won't breed back, some that are later than I like but I guess its par for the course.
My point in all this I guess is that I think we often times create imbalances by applying NPK especially N, while our fields are nice and dark from the N and growing a little faster .....only when it rains. We are destroying the humus
and life of the soil. Therefore we have all this lush pasture we have artificially created, but then on the other hand we see all these problems. my soil tests show that I am a little low on Phosphorus but it is was like that six years ago. I would have thought by now it should all be depleted but nothing has changed.
The more we can stay natural and sustainable the less imbalances we are going to create my farm isn't the best land in the country but I don't let it get out of balance.This is just my humble opinion.