Another update on Ethanol.

[NC Liz 2]

Here is a hypothesis presented over on the Think Tank board reference the source of sulfur being in the water.
As the present reported and unreported known cases run from Al. USA into Canada, is it possible that the sulfur is in the water, is being causes by geological activity caused by the Madrid fault line.

Any geologist out there?
Liz

 

[Lucky_P]

Last time I intend to weigh in on this one.
Excessive dietary sulfur can be a problem, and can be one (of several) causes of polioencephalomalacia.
No one, including me, has ever intimated that ethanol byproducts, corn gluten feed, etc. don't contain sulfur, and it's documented that they can potentially be an issue.

BUT! One has to consider total dietary sulfur - from water sources, forages, feedstuffs, mineral supplements.
Far too many documented cases of polio have been associated with animals consuming high sulfate water sources, high-sulfur forages, like the Brassicas, consumption of plants like bracken fern that have thiaminase enzymes, or ration misformulation favoring bacterial populations that produce thiaminase.

Ethanol byproducts, in and of themselves, are not evil or poisonous. They're a high-quality protein supplement, and their S content must be considered in ration development - same as for any other ration ingredient. Hundreds of millions of tons of them are fed to cattle yearly - but if you misuse them, they can cause problems.

 

[Hook]

Last time I intend to weigh in on this one.
Excessive dietary sulfur can be a problem, and can be one (of several) causes of polioencephalomalacia.
No one, including me, has ever intimated that ethanol byproducts, corn gluten feed, etc. don't contain sulfur, and it's documented that they can potentially be an issue.

BUT! One has to consider total dietary sulfur - from water sources, forages, feedstuffs, mineral supplements.
Far too many documented cases of polio have been associated with animals consuming high sulfate water sources, high-sulfur forages, like the Brassicas, consumption of plants like bracken fern that have thiaminase enzymes, or ration misformulation favoring bacterial populations that produce thiaminase.

Ethanol byproducts, in and of themselves, are not evil or poisonous. They're a high-quality protein supplement, and their S content must be considered in ration development - same as for any other ration ingredient. Hundreds of millions of tons of them are fed to cattle yearly - but if you misuse them, they can cause problems.

:clap: :clap:
To point the finger solely at ddg, and even further extend that finger to sulfur alone is misinformed at best.

 

[dun]

To point the finger solely at ddg, and even further extend that finger to sulfur alone is misinformed at best.

10 years ago when we had a 3 year drought, we had no grass and hay was crap that normally you wouldn;t even use to fill a ditch to stop erotion. We fed straight DDG in pretty high amount for almost 6 months. We had no problems of any kind other then one cow that prolapsed that I got stupid and kept and she prolapsed again the next year on just pasture.

 

[NC Liz 2]

dun,
Here is a list from the Ethanol Producers Magazine of 216 plants with locations, that produce DDG.
If the source of DDG you are using you have nothing to worry about as these plants produce food grade products ( see "platform" list ) which comes under FDA regulation which prohibits the use of sulfur use during production.
I have no idea why they are listed in an ethanol magazine as none of them produces ethanol as evidenced by the platform list.
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/plants/l ... ar-Starch/

If I ever find a list of ethanol plants that actually produce ethanol I will post it.
Liz

 

[ibetyamissedme]

dun,
Here is a list from the Ethanol Producers Magazine of 216 plants with locations, that produce DDG.
If the source of DDG you are using you have nothing to worry about as these plants produce food grade products ( see "platform" list ) which comes under FDA regulation which prohibits the use of sulfur use during production.
I have no idea why they are listed in an ethanol magazine as none of them produces ethanol as evidenced by the platform list.
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/plants/l ... ar-Starch/

If I ever find a list of ethanol plants that actually produce ethanol I will post it.
Liz

They all produce ethanol. You are a really confused person.

 

[regolith]

dun,
Here is a list from the Ethanol Producers Magazine of 216 plants with locations, that produce DDG.
If the source of DDG you are using you have nothing to worry about as these plants produce food grade products ( see "platform" list ) which comes under FDA regulation which prohibits the use of sulfur use during production.
I have no idea why they are listed in an ethanol magazine as none of them produces ethanol as evidenced by the platform list.
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/plants/l ... ar-Starch/

If I ever find a list of ethanol plants that actually produce ethanol I will post it.
Liz

They all produce ethanol. You are a really confused person.

Exactly - it wouldn't be DDG if it wasn't from that process.
What I'm wondering though is, who drinks all that whisky?

 

[Lucky_P]

rego,
Here in the US, we have questionable 'green energy policies' and 'pollution standards' that have fostered a system where approximately 40% of corn grain produced is utilized for production of 'industrial' ethanol principally to be blended into gasoline mixtures. About 1/3 of that 40% total re-enters the food chain as distiller's grain products, for animal feed.
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles ... hanol-ddgs

Ethanol plant here in our town produces fuel ethanol, extracts much of the fat (sold as corn oil), captures much of the CO2(marketing it as dry ice or compressed CO2) and markets wet, modified, and dry distiller's grain co-products to livestock producers.

 

[regolith]

I'll put my :dunce: cap on because I was being deliberately stupid with that comment.

It's true that in the UK - at least back then - you fed draff or DDG and it came from the nearest brewery or distillery. It's all ethanol regardless of whether it's drunk or burned as fuel. We mixed a product called 'stymu flav' into the dairy cow rations and I think that was DDG, just a different name.

And to reiterate what you said earlier, we do get polio here in NZ in cattle that have never eaten anything but grass. And maybe weeds, tree leaves, whatever else they can find that's tasty.

 

[NC Liz 2]

Lucky,

Ethanol plant here in our town produces fuel ethanol, extracts much of the fat (sold as corn oil), captures much of the CO2(marketing it as dry ice or compressed CO2) and markets wet, modified, and dry distiller's grain co-products to livestock producers.

I agree with what you have posted, as far as you went.

As it was explained to me in baby magic:

Distilleries produce one of two grades of products, one being food grade and one being industrial grade.
And some distilleries produce both food and industrial grade.

The distilleries that produce food grade products the by-produce is safe for both human and animal consumption as they are regulated by the FDA.

The distilleries that produce industrial grade products, the by-produce is NOT safe for both human and animal consumption, as they are NOT regulated by the FDA.

The distilleries that produce both food grade and industrial products, the by-produces are NOT safe for both human and animal consumption, as they are NOT regulated by the FDA in the portion of the plant that produces industrial products.

In a duel product distillery that produces both food grade and industrial products, the processed corn from the food grade portion of the plant, the by-product is conveyed to the industrial grade portion of the plant where sulfur is added to extract the alcohol, making it unregulated by the FDA and the by-product is now unsafe for both human and animal consumption, UNLESS the by-product of the food grade portion of the plant, is sold off at that time and NOT conveyed to the industrial portion of the plant, which would make NO economical sense, because why would you invest in a industrial production plant and NOT use your own by-product from your food grade plant.

So all those plants listed in Ethanol Production Magazine, listing sugar/starch as their platform are actually duel purpose plants producing both food and industrial grade products and the by-product is unsafe for both humans and animals.

IMO, the platform should read: sugar/starch/ethanol.

Liz

 

[ibetyamissedme]

So all those plants listed in Ethanol Production Magazine, listing sugar/starch as their platform are actually duel purpose plants producing both food and industrial grade products and the by-product is unsafe for both humans and animals.

IMO, the platform should read: sugar/starch/ethanol.

Liz

Again Sir loin you are wrong, you are a very confused person. The platform is the way they produce the ethanol. If it isn't a sugar/starch platform, it is a cellulosic platform.

 

[ibetyamissedme]

Sir loin getting back to the Newman vs AE Staley case from 1981, you claim ethanol was the cause of that feed in question. Do you find it odd that Staley did not begin producing Ethanol until late 1982 almost two years after the feed was fed?

 

[NC Liz 2]

Do you find it odd that Staley did not begin producing Ethanol until late 1982 almost two years after the feed was fed?

Not at all!
Because if that were true, the judges would have ruled in Staley's favor, which they did not.
Or Staleys was only a distributor for the parent Co, which was the manufacturer, and the feed in question could not be directly tied to the parent CO but could be tied directly to Staley.

Liz

 

[ibetyamissedme]

Do you find it odd that Staley did not begin producing Ethanol until late 1982 almost two years after the feed was fed?

Not at all!
Because if that were true, the judges would have ruled in Staley's favor, which they did not.
Or Staleys was only a distributor for the parent Co, which was the manufacturer, and the feed in question could not be directly tied to the parent CO but could be tied directly to Staley.

Liz

So you admit ethanol production had nothing to do with the feed in question, the feed produced was a by product of food grade products under FDA oversight and regulation, so it was safe for human and animal consumption according to you. So what was the problem?

 

[NC Liz 2]

So you admit ethanol production had nothing to do with the feed in question, the feed produced was a by product of food grade products under FDA oversight and regulation, so it was safe for human and animal consumption according to you. So what was the problem?

I never said any such thing in ref, Newman vs Staley nor did either of the two judges who heard the case.
Those are you assumptions and I might add "wrongly so".
Liz

 

[ibetyamissedme]

So you admit ethanol production had nothing to do with the feed in question, the feed produced was a by product of food grade products under FDA oversight and regulation, so it was safe for human and animal consumption according to you. So what was the problem?

I never said any such thing in ref, Newman vs Staley nor did either of the two judges who heard the case.
Those are you assumptions and I might add "wrongly so".
Liz

You claim ethanol was the culprit even though it would not be produced until two years later? Explain that math

 

[NC Liz 2]

You claim ethanol was the culprit even though it would not be produced until two years later? Explain that math

Again you are making an incorrect assumption.
I made no such claim, Norman did, and the judges found his claim to be valid.

FYI, industrial alcohol has been produced all the way back past the model T Ford days when it was used as we now use permanent antifreeze.
.
I have no idea when they started using it as a motor fuel ( ethanol ) but I do know it was used as a motor fuel as far back as the 1960s in race cars. But it wasn't called ethanol then.
Liz

 

[ibetyamissedme]

FYI, industrial alcohol has been produced all the way back past the model T Ford days when it was used as we now use permanent antifreeze.
.
I have no idea when they started using it as a motor fuel ( ethanol ) but I do know it was used as a motor fuel as far back as the 1960s in race cars. But it wasn't called ethanol then.
Liz

I don't care how long industrial ethanol has been produced, it was not produced at the AE Staley plant in Loundon until late 1982 two years after the feed was fed. You talk in circles Sir Loin, When that feed left the Loundon plant, it was a by product of a food grade product and you keep telling us that anything from a food grade only plant is safe for humans and animals. So what happened? You are starting to tell so many lies your getting more confused by the minute.

 

[NC Liz 2]

Ibetyamissedme,
Again you are assuming things.
If you have facts I would be happy to consider them.
Who is to say back then that Staley was nothing more then a stand alone co, which it was, and was given or purchased the raw materials and either pelletized it or resold it raw.

Just like Commodities Specialists Co., is doing with brewers grain.
See; http://www.blackmountainnews.com/articl ... ill-useful
Liz

 

[ibetyamissedme]

Ibetyamissedme,
Again you are assuming things.
If you have facts I would be happy to consider them.
Who is to say back then that Staley was nothing more then a stand alone co, which it was, and was given or purchased the raw materials and either pelletized it or resold it raw.

Just like Commodities Specialists Co., is doing with brewers grain.
See; http://www.blackmountainnews.com/articl ... ill-useful
Liz

You provided the name of the plant that produced the feed in question, that plant did not produce ANY ethanol until late 1982, according to you the feed from 1980 was produced from a food grade only plant. According to you that feed is safe for human and animal consumption. So I ask again what happened?