Angus Breeder

[boondocks]

[


I have been away for a few months and thought I would check in. This is the first topic that caught my eye. A couple of points........ Smaller breeders in this area tend to have their cattle as a hobby and tax writeoff rather than a sole business, the resulting pets that never leave the herd because the owner doesn't mind milking out turnip shaped teats or trimming feet raises bulls that put those traits into commercial herds. On the other side of the coin, most larger outfits run their cattle similar to commercial outfits and haven't got the time to milk old Bessie so her calf can suck or trim the herd's feet so they can walk without limping.


The other point that many chasing the AI game seem to miss is consistancy. How does a potential customer get consistancy from a breeders herd if said breeder is using 30 different sires on 30 different cows? More than a few of u run more than one bull and would prefer to buy groups of half or three quarter brothers to produce consistant and therefore much more marketable groups of calves.

welcome back! I guess I would be shunned among my fellow small-breeders in your area! Have never milked a teat (turnip-shaped or otherwise), nor trimmed a hoof. (1) Life is too short, and (2). I don't want to pass on bad traits.
We have no clean-up bull, so you better be fertile on TAI or bye-bye. In short, we do take good care of them but they're def not coddled, and need to perform in our harsh climate. Granted our sample size is small but (knock serious wood) we have about 50 calves delivered with no losses, no calving assistance. (Sure hope I didn't just hex myself).

 

[Redgully]

I actually prefer the smaller breeders for seed stock. They know their cattle back to front and usually search for the best genetics for each cow with an aim to what they are trying to do. They are limited to what they can keep and cull hard. Big breeders will always have a percentage of cattle that are there to make up numbers and are forced to take a more general direction to their breeding. If i have 30 cows can easily use 30 different sires with A.I. to match them up. If i have 3000 cattle it would be much more difficult. Having said that the small breeder could not survive without the big number breeders because that is where he will source his semen from.

I have been away for a few months and thought I would check in. This is the first topic that caught my eye. A couple of points........ Smaller breeders in this area tend to have their cattle as a hobby and tax writeoff rather than a sole business, the resulting pets that never leave the herd because the owner doesn't mind milking out turnip shaped teats or trimming feet raises bulls that put those traits into commercial herds. On the other side of the coin, most larger outfits run their cattle similar to commercial outfits and haven't got the time to milk old Bessie so her calf can suck or trim the herd's feet so they can walk without limping.


The other point that many chasing the AI game seem to miss is consistancy. How does a potential customer get consistancy from a breeders herd if said breeder is using 30 different sires on 30 different cows? More than a few of u run more than one bull and would prefer to buy groups of half or three quarter brothers to produce consistant and therefore much more marketable groups of calves.

I agree some small breeders treat their cows like family pets and have them in cotton wool but one look at their herd and you wouldn't buy a bull from them. But breeders who are dedicated to breeding a better genetic are the ones who i am referring to. I totally agree small breeders don't have good uniformity to their herds but that is not their aim. It is more about eliminating defects the big breeders ignore in the pursuit for production. The small breeder has a place in the industry and an important role to play. But without the big breeders the little breeders can't do what they do. As i am quite fussy about my cattle i like to source my genetics from small breeders who are working hard to improve whatever breed they are in. If i was running a large commercial herd i would seek out good small breeders for an improved genetic and use that bull to breed home bred bulls to keep my herd even.

 

[True Grit Farms]

I actually prefer the smaller breeders for seed stock. They know their cattle back to front and usually search for the best genetics for each cow with an aim to what they are trying to do. They are limited to what they can keep and cull hard. Big breeders will always have a percentage of cattle that are there to make up numbers and are forced to take a more general direction to their breeding. If i have 30 cows can easily use 30 different sires with A.I. to match them up. If i have 3000 cattle it would be much more difficult. Having said that the small breeder could not survive without the big number breeders because that is where he will source his semen from.

I have been away for a few months and thought I would check in. This is the first topic that caught my eye. A couple of points........ Smaller breeders in this area tend to have their cattle as a hobby and tax writeoff rather than a sole business, the resulting pets that never leave the herd because the owner doesn't mind milking out turnip shaped teats or trimming feet raises bulls that put those traits into commercial herds. On the other side of the coin, most larger outfits run their cattle similar to commercial outfits and haven't got the time to milk old Bessie so her calf can suck or trim the herd's feet so they can walk without limping.


The other point that many chasing the AI game seem to miss is consistancy. How does a potential customer get consistancy from a breeders herd if said breeder is using 30 different sires on 30 different cows? More than a few of u run more than one bull and would prefer to buy groups of half or three quarter brothers to produce consistant and therefore much more marketable groups of calves.

I agree some small breeders treat their cows like family pets and have them in cotton wool but one look at their herd and you wouldn't buy a bull from them. But breeders who are dedicated to breeding a better genetic are the ones who i am referring to. I totally agree small breeders don't have good uniformity to their herds but that is not their aim. It is more about eliminating defects the big breeders ignore in the pursuit for production. The small breeder has a place in the industry and an important role to play. But without the big breeders the little breeders can't do what they do. As i am quite fussy about my cattle i like to source my genetics from small breeders who are working hard to improve whatever breed they are in. If i was running a large commercial herd i would seek out good small breeders for an improved genetic and use that bull to breed home bred bulls to keep my herd even.

Easy now, all the big boys with the name brand registered herds I've have the pleasure of touring use state of the art technology, and are all college educated. Every animal is DNA tested, weighed multiple times a year, has a EID tag, a reader and computer is in the working facilities. And most have scales on their grinder - mixers and know exactly how much feed and mineral they feed. Some bull operations use a EID reader and know exactly how much feed and how long a bull had its head stuck in the feed trough. They can afford to have all this fancy stuff, or think they can. It's hard to beat a man at his own game, but yes it has been done.

 

[BFE]

So, what's the size a breeder has to be to be reliable then? 100, 200, 2000 cows?

Back to the original point, most around here won't pay more than a few hundred over the price of a fat for bulls. I can understand the man in question's stance on keeping back the lower quality bulls for the bottom feeder guys, takes the same management to raise that dud bull as the good ones. Takes more to steer them and get a few hundred less as a fat.

 

[Ebenezer]

Anyone who is honest knows that the genes from close bred cattle do not produce all cookie cutter performers. The cow does make the bull because she is the only source of mitochondrial DNA. It only comes from the female.

Folks want real or useful bulls often go on a quest for the rare either on a small farm or finding the nugget in the sandpile of a big sale. But either way, folks gravitate towards the biggest, the mostest, the bestest based on phenotype which can easily be an environmentally (90% feed) superior versus the most functionally useful. Anyone should have calves and cows that are not really what they want even though the animals have been bred like all others. But culling is expensive, farming is a cash flow business and a so-so cow is not a problem as long as she is productive enough to pay her way or return a profit as a sold animal for a commercial cow to people who want to buy in females as a plan. The price paid is not so important as the cost to produce. That is generally where a smaller producer with business skill and a restraint to buy too much stuff comes out ahead. Short haul, forage base, environmentally fit, more knowledge of each animal, ... What I tend to believe is that a small producer can give me more facts about the usefulness and fit than a big operation that merely depends on EPDs, ADG, herd prefix, a rotation of AI bulls, ...

 

[Nesikep]

Anyone who is honest knows that the genes from close bred cattle do not produce all cookie cutter performers. The cow does make the bull because she is the only source of mitochondrial DNA. It only comes from the female.

Folks want real or useful bulls often go on a quest for the rare either on a small farm or finding the nugget in the sandpile of a big sale. But either way, folks gravitate towards the biggest, the mostest, the bestest based on phenotype which can easily be an environmentally (90% feed) superior versus the most functionally useful. Anyone should have calves and cows that are not really what they want even though the animals have been bred like all others. But culling is expensive, farming is a cash flow business and a so-so cow is not a problem as long as she is productive enough to pay her way or return a profit as a sold animal for a commercial cow to people who want to buy in females as a plan. The price paid is not so important as the cost to produce. That is generally where a smaller producer with business skill and a restraint to buy too much stuff comes out ahead. Short haul, forage base, environmentally fit, more knowledge of each animal, ... What I tend to believe is that a small producer can give me more facts about the usefulness and fit than a big operation that merely depends on EPDs, ADG, herd prefix, a rotation of AI bulls, ...

I think there is something to mitochondrial DNA, and I've thought of it a fair bit.. You're right, it comes only from the dam.. However, that also means that the bull from that dam doesn't pass it on to his offspring, so I'm not sure it really matters there. Then there's epigenetics too, which I haven't had time to delve into much but sounds interesting as well.

 

[Bestoutwest]

1. The size of the operations has nothing to do with making excuses or standing behind their cattle. That is a function of individual integrity.
Very true, except a smaller breeder usually doesn't have another bull available as a replacement till next year. If one of the yearling bulls you sold last year went bad can your replace it right now?

This is true. However, I'm not going to charge you $6,000 for a bull like the big boys will. And what is the quality of said replacement bull, and how does it work? Do they not sell every bull in the sale? Do they hold some back? Do they keep the ones their buddy ran up and couldn't sell?

I'm buy a couple of females from a local guy up the road. I had a heifer picked out that he was keeping to breed. He emailed me a couple of weeks ago and told me that we'd have to hold off as he had her checked and she was open. While it was disappointing, I know I'm not getting a "bred" heifer that "must have slipped the calf early." I'm not saying that the big boys do all sorts of shady things, but the little guys are pretty good, too. One other thing, I'd rather go to a smaller local guy and pay $1,600 for a cow than go to a sale and spend $2,500 so they can make $1,600 on it after all the fees, advertising, dinner, etc.

 

[True Grit Farms]

1. The size of the operations has nothing to do with making excuses or standing behind their cattle. That is a function of individual integrity.
Very true, except a smaller breeder usually doesn't have another bull available as a replacement till next year. If one of the yearling bulls you sold last year went bad can your replace it right now?

This is true. However, I'm not going to charge you $6,000 for a bull like the big boys will. And what is the quality of said replacement bull, and how does it work? Do they not sell every bull in the sale? Do they hold some back? Do they keep the ones their buddy ran up and couldn't sell?

I'm buy a couple of females from a local guy up the road. I had a heifer picked out that he was keeping to breed. He emailed me a couple of weeks ago and told me that we'd have to hold off as he had her checked and she was open. While it was disappointing, I know I'm not getting a "bred" heifer that "must have slipped the calf early." I'm not saying that the big boys do all sorts of shady things, but the little guys are pretty good, too. One other thing, I'd rather go to a smaller local guy and pay $1,600 for a cow than go to a sale and spend $2,500 so they can make $1,600 on it after all the fees, advertising, dinner, etc.

You can buy a quality bull at the big boy auctions reasonable a lot of times. Most of the bigger operations have bulls that didn't make the sale for one reason or another, and most keep some bulls back and sell private treaty throughout the year. Maybe they have to eat some that their buddy bid on, but the breeder doesn't make any money if they don't sell either. You need to read the Yon Family Farms guarantee, they have a sale coming up in a couple of weeks, I'll be there looking for a deal.
I have done way better buying at auctions than off the farm. Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay at auctions. Some sales just don't have enough buyers, some consignment sellers don't even show up to protect or help sell their animal, and some need to sell to pay the bills, you never know what's going to happen at an auction. I've personally hauled 8 bulls 400 miles and hauled 5 of them back home because the sale didn't go as planned. I'm not giving my stuff away, I'd rather sell it for slaughter and loose a few dollars than let someone beat me up.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I'm right the opposite, I've done way better buying private treaty..never been able to buy the one I want at a special sale..most
Sales have to be snap decisions, I don't like to snap...

 

[wbvs58]

In a large operation that starts off with say 500 bulls and sorts through them to come up with their 200 for a production sale that will present well, what happens to the 300 that don't make it? Yes some might get castrated but in my experience most of the balance are sold from the paddock just like those bottom 5 of the small breeder Ron visited. Many buyers don't like the glitz and hype of the auction sale and prefer to buy that one that still has a bit of growth to do from the paddock.

So there is not as much culling as some people are making out.

Ken

 

[True Grit Farms]

In a large operation that starts off with say 500 bulls and sorts through them to come up with their 200 for a production sale that will present well, what happens to the 300 that don't make it? Yes some might get castrated but in my experience most of the balance are sold from the paddock just like those bottom 5 of the small breeder Ron visited. Many buyers don't like the glitz and hype of the auction sale and prefer to buy that one that still has a bit of growth to do from the paddock.

So there is not as much culling as some people are making out.

Ken

Some places retain ownership and get the carcass results, which leads to breeding decisions. The operation everyone loves to hate leads the way in that department.
Ken your area and market must be different than ours. There's only a market for a certain number of bulls, even for an operation like GAR. If our UGA bull tests have more than 70 bulls you need to be there. Sometimes you can make a few $hundred dollars buying tested young bulls that are ready for service. Last year a Charolais, 3 red Angus and 2 Hereford bulls sold for less than slaughter prices.

 

[Bright Raven]

If our UGA bull tests have more than 70 bulls you need to be there. Sometimes you can make a few $hundred dollars buying tested young bulls that are ready for service. Last year a Charolais, 3 red Angus and 2 Hereford bulls sold for less than slaughter prices.

I often wonder at a sale like the Bulls of the Bluegrass why those last tier bulls sell at slaughter prices.

My assumption is that there are issues that those bulls have that circulate during the viewing prior to the sale. The last bulls are the weakest bulls in the sale but it is hard to explain that they sell for slaughter prices.

I have noticed this, there are cattle placed in all those big sales that have issues. There is a reason someone is selling them. For example, Fire Sweep and I bought a beautiful second calf cow in the early spring at a big sale in Springfield. It was too good to be true. She lost the calf - premature. Which is what happened to her first calf. I AI bred her while I was there when Fire Sweep went to Nationals. She only held that pregnancy for 60 days. They bull bred her and she lost that pregnancy. She is now going to slaughter.

I would much prefer to buy off the farm and have a direct connection to the seller.

 

[Ky hills]

I have had far better results buying Bulls private treaty on the farms than at sales. Bought an Angus bull that was the second high selling bull in the sale from a supposed longtime reputable breeder at a very popular area bull sale. In less than two weeks the bull was dead from hardware disease. He appeared ok at purchase but soon went down hill. The breeder acknowledged that he had also had a heifer with hardware at the same time. He refused compensate in any way. I had to go purchase another bull from another breeder. Have also purchased registered heifers, cows,from production and consignment sales. Have come to the conclusion that many of those cattle are in reality their culls. As they have almost all been culled from my herd in short order.
When I have sold Angus Bulls, just the few that we have raised, they have been registered, DNA tested for recessive traits and genomic enhanced EPD's. They also have passed a BSE and are in working condition and guaranteed for the first season. Our commercial bred heifers are guaranteed according to the requirements of the sale, and I have went an extra step taking one back and refunding the money based on its disposition. The heifer did not act that way here but something changed between sale time and getting her to her new home. We care about our customers and want to provide cattle that work. I will not knowingly misrepresent anything we sell. Our culling percentage for our bred heifers is usually 20 to 30% from our end before the sale consultant and grader cull from their guidelines to make sure the quality is high in the sale. I sometimes think that those commercial heifers have been screened and culled much closer than at some registered sales.

 

[True Grit Farms]

If our UGA bull tests have more than 70 bulls you need to be there. Sometimes you can make a few $hundred dollars buying tested young bulls that are ready for service. Last year a Charolais, 3 red Angus and 2 Hereford bulls sold for less than slaughter prices.

I often wonder at a sale like the Bulls of the Bluegrass why those last tier bulls sell at slaughter prices.

My assumption is that there are issues that those bulls have that circulate during the viewing prior to the sale. The last bulls are the weakest bulls in the sale but it is hard to explain that they sell for slaughter prices.

I have noticed this, there are cattle placed in all those big sales that have issues. There is a reason someone is selling them. For example, Fire Sweep and I bought a beautiful second calf cow in the early spring at a big sale in Springfield. It was too good to be true. She lost the calf - premature. Which is what happened to her first calf. I AI bred her while I was there when Fire Sweep went to Nationals. She only held that pregnancy for 60 days. They bull bred her and she lost that pregnancy. She is now going to slaughter.

I would much prefer to buy off the farm and have a direct connection to the seller.

This year it cost the consignor $850.00 for each bull entered in the UGA evaluation bull test. And some will sell for $1500.00 or less. Two years ago some bulls sold for less than $1k. I figure you need to get $1800.00 to break even compared to selling at the stockyard. Every bull will have a current BSE, and have successfully completed the bull evaluation test. Close to 30 percent of the bulls will not make it to the end of the test, and those that don't make it don't sell. The bulls that sell cheap are not bad bulls, there's just not the demand or market for them.

 

[Son of Butch]

If our UGA bull tests have more than 70 bulls you need to be there. Sometimes you can make a few $hundred dollars buying tested young bulls that are ready for service. Last year a Charolais, 3 red Angus and 2 Hereford bulls sold for less than slaughter prices.

I often wonder at a sale like the Bulls of the Bluegrass why those last tier bulls sell at slaughter prices.

Supply/demand. Supply does not create demand. More Simmental bulls for sale than Simmental bull buyers?

Bulls of the Bluegrass April 2017
57 bulls
top Simmental Bull 18,500
2nd high selling 8,250
next 5 bulls averaged 5,900
remaining 50 bulls averaged $2,640

You have to be at the sale to see what the bottom 10 averaged because they don't publish that kind of information.

 

[WinterSpringsFarm]

That's the problem in all the cattle breeds. I feel it's the breeders responsibility to police themselves if they're going to be selling registered breeding stock. Otherwise I see no reason not to sell a bull to a customer that's willing to buy what you have. I can't imagine someone would consider buying from a breeder who only has 45 registered cows, especially from a herd that are pasture bred by bulls.
I was at what I consider a real Brangus breeder last week. They run 2000 head of registered Brangus cows and sorted out 300 bulls to sell. After 2 months of back grounding and culling as they saw fit, they ended up with 238 bulls for sale last year. I consider them breeders and not multipliers.

So having only 45 cows doesn't make you a cow man? But having 2000 makes you worthy of selling bulls? Get real! Having the ability to make good breeding decisions is a gift in my opinion, and breeding for bulls to improves others herds falls under that gift. Makes no difference how many head you run. Sometimes the stuff that you type here is unbelievable.

 

[Bright Raven]

If our UGA bull tests have more than 70 bulls you need to be there. Sometimes you can make a few $hundred dollars buying tested young bulls that are ready for service. Last year a Charolais, 3 red Angus and 2 Hereford bulls sold for less than slaughter prices.

I often wonder at a sale like the Bulls of the Bluegrass why those last tier bulls sell at slaughter prices.

Supply/demand. Supply does not create demand. More Simmental bulls for sale than Simmental bull buyers?

Bulls of the Bluegrass April 2017
57 bulls
top Simmental Bull 18,500
2nd high selling 8,250
next 5 bulls averaged 5,900
remaining 50 bulls averaged $2,640

You have to be at the sale to see what the bottom 10 averaged because they don't publish that kind of information.

I was there. Those bottom 10 bulls sold for approximately $1800 each if my recollection is correct. That is not slaughter prices but you have to wonder what they gained by selling them at that sale. I will add: They were not nice bulls. A couple were older bulls and a couple were just very plain.

 

[True Grit Farms]

That's the problem in all the cattle breeds. I feel it's the breeders responsibility to police themselves if they're going to be selling registered breeding stock. Otherwise I see no reason not to sell a bull to a customer that's willing to buy what you have. I can't imagine someone would consider buying from a breeder who only has 45 registered cows, especially from a herd that are pasture bred by bulls.
I was at what I consider a real Brangus breeder last week. They run 2000 head of registered Brangus cows and sorted out 300 bulls to sell. After 2 months of back grounding and culling as they saw fit, they ended up with 238 bulls for sale last year. I consider them breeders and not multipliers.

So having only 45 cows doesn't make you a cow man? But having 2000 makes you worthy of selling bulls? Get real! Having the ability to make good breeding decisions is a gift in my opinion, and breeding for bulls to improves others herds falls under that gift. Makes no difference how many head you run. Sometimes the stuff that you type here is unbelievable.

A person with 45 cows is a cow man, a person with 2000 knows cows and knows what works and what doesn't. Experience is the mother of wisdom. Breeding decisions is a gift? That's about the stupidest thing I've ever read on a breeding topic, at least your the first one to post that. Anyone that can read can make good breeding decisions. We all have access to the same animals through the use of AI and ET. Those with the most can afford to cull the most and end up with the best animals. But that requires wisdom and an eye for cattle, not a gift. I'll add, one of the most knowledgeable cow man on this site probably has less than 45 cows, he's definitely gifted, if you don't believe it just ask him.

 

[Bright Raven]

So having only 45 cows doesn't make you a cow man? But having 2000 makes you worthy of selling bulls? Get real! Having the ability to make good breeding decisions is a gift in my opinion, and breeding for bulls to improves others herds falls under that gift. Makes no difference how many head you run. Sometimes the stuff that you type here is unbelievable.

A person with 45 cows is a cow man, a person with 2000 knows cows and knows what works and what doesn't. Experience is the mother of wisdom. Breeding decisions is a gift? That's about the stupidest thing I've ever read on a breeding topic, at least your the first one to post that. Anyone that can read can make good breeding decisions. We all have access to the same animals through the use of AI and ET. Those with the most can afford to cull the most and end up with the best animals. But that requires wisdom and an eye for cattle, not a gift. I'll add, one of the most knowledgeable cow man on this site probably has less than 45 cows, he's definitely gifted, if you don't believe it just ask him.

Life is what you make it and that goes for the vocation of animal husbandry just like it does for the attitude a person cultivates.

I suppose if there were Bovine Gods seated on Mount Olympus, they might "gift" someone the Art of Breeding.

Breeding is an Art which is best seasoned with a good foundation in the fundamentals of genetics, anatomy, morphology and general animal science.

What are cattle? They are Biological Units. The best breeders are going to have a good foundation in biology.

 

[kenny thomas]

I am not a registered breeder but I have several registered Angus, Simmental, and Simangus cows. I raise bulls for my own use. In the past I have bought $7,000 bulls and $800 bulls. As a small operator I am not sure the calves paid for the higher bull.