Angus Breeder

[Bright Raven]

There's a big difference between using live cover and AI, this operation was using live cover. A small breeder doesn't cull as hard, makes excuses, and can't guarantee or back up their cattle like a larger operation A smaller breeder definitely babysits and pampers their cattle, keeps them in a smaller area so real issues - flaws can't or won't be noticed. Just because the animal has the names, numbers, and DNA doesn't mean it can get the job done. Now anyone that cares to can breed good cattle, there's nothing to making a nice looking animal with good numbers. Heck even a dummy like me can and does sell breeding stock, but I sure don't consider myself a cattle breeder. There's a lot to it to make bulls that will work hard, cover ground and stay healthy. Why is it that the older proven breeders that run 200+ head of cows in working conditions consistently produce the best AI bulls? I'll tell you why, every cow no matter the breeding doesn't always raise a nice calf under working conditions. You can cover a lot of flaws up with a feed bucket and babysitting.

Vince:

Having seen several of the major producers in Kentucky, my observations do not match your observations.

1. The size of the operations has nothing to do with making excuses or standing behind their cattle. That is a function of individual integrity.

2. In Kentucky, bulls are managed very similar regardless of the size of the operation. After weaning, the bulls are ran in bull pastures and all of the ones I have visited, feed their bulls grain in addition to hay/pasture. The bigger producers have more bull pastures or bull paddocks but that is the only difference.

3. None of the producers I have observed run their bulls under actual field conditions in which the bull is covering lots of ground and covering cows in a breeding situation which would reveal flaws in soundness, etc. Most are selling their bulls as virgins at 12 to 15 months of age. The only criteria for fitness is a BSE.

Maybe this is unique to Kentucky but most of the bigger producers, have accumulated several farms. For example, the Boyd's. They have several farms but if you go view their bulls ( and I have with Charlie Sr.), they will drive you into the pastures where the bulls are and you get out and look at the bulls. Those pastures are not more than 10 to 15 acres. Same with all the other producers. You seem to imply that the big producers run their bulls in 10,000 acre pastures and they are living off rocks and broomsedge. Maybe they just operate different in Kentucky.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

You are spot on Bright Raven.

 

[M-5]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone sees thing differently. A man or womans perception of phenotype is different based how they see them. Its is proven here everyday . any bull that is posted every single person notices something different.. DO i think all bulls out of prime matings should be used as breeding stock .. NO , but if you want to change the other man operation buy him out.. People have stated that the chrome calves you produce should be cut , you haqve a market for them and you sell them the same as this breeder does.

 

[jscunn]

TG,
About your 45 cows comment do you remember Homestead Angus in Alabama. I know at one time Banks had just a few cows (~30) and he bred Homestead Sledgehammer that was in the ABS catalog for years. How many cows was Angus Acres running when Angus Acres Power Play was calved? He ended up selling for a little money.. :cowboy:

You didn't offend me I have 47 registered cows so I know there is still a chance.. LOL..

 

[Redgully]

There's a big difference between using live cover and AI, this operation was using live cover. A small breeder doesn't cull as hard, makes excuses, and can't guarantee or back up their cattle like a larger operation A smaller breeder definitely babysits and pampers their cattle, keeps them in a smaller area so real issues - flaws can't or won't be noticed. Just because the animal has the names, numbers, and DNA doesn't mean it can get the job done. Now anyone that cares to can breed good cattle, there's nothing to making a nice looking animal with good numbers. Heck even a dummy like me can and does sell breeding stock, but I sure don't consider myself a cattle breeder. There's a lot to it to make bulls that will work hard, cover ground and stay healthy. Why is it that the older proven breeders that run 200+ head of cows in working conditions consistently produce the best AI bulls? I'll tell you why, every cow no matter the breeding doesn't always raise a nice calf under working conditions. You can cover a lot of flaws up with a feed bucket and babysitting.

You make some valid points and to a small breeder the large breeders A.I bulls are essential for them to be able to do what they do. But i still feel the small breeder has the advantage of selecting the best genetics from multiple large herds and producing some outstanding animals. I would also prefer a bull that has had the best conditions being raised so he has grown to his potential and has the best chance of avoiding leg and foot injuries. But of course there is advantages and disadvantages either way you go. I also disagree with the statement small breeders make excuses, to me small breeders are very hard judges of their breeding as they are always aiming for the ceiling where as in my experience with large breeders they believe their cattle are the best in the country even if they have high pins, terrible udders and feet that wont last long, and they wont hear it any other way. Just my experience though.

 

[True Grit Farms]

There's a big difference between using live cover and AI, this operation was using live cover. A small breeder doesn't cull as hard, makes excuses, and can't guarantee or back up their cattle like a larger operation A smaller breeder definitely babysits and pampers their cattle, keeps them in a smaller area so real issues - flaws can't or won't be noticed. Just because the animal has the names, numbers, and DNA doesn't mean it can get the job done. Now anyone that cares to can breed good cattle, there's nothing to making a nice looking animal with good numbers. Heck even a dummy like me can and does sell breeding stock, but I sure don't consider myself a cattle breeder. There's a lot to it to make bulls that will work hard, cover ground and stay healthy. Why is it that the older proven breeders that run 200+ head of cows in working conditions consistently produce the best AI bulls? I'll tell you why, every cow no matter the breeding doesn't always raise a nice calf under working conditions. You can cover a lot of flaws up with a feed bucket and babysitting.

Vince:

Having seen several of the major producers in Kentucky, my observations do not match your observations.

1. The size of the operations has nothing to do with making excuses or standing behind their cattle. That is a function of individual integrity.
Very true, except a smaller breeder usually doesn't have another bull available as a replacement till next year. If one of the yearling bulls you sold last year went bad can your replace it right now?

2. In Kentucky, bulls are managed very similar regardless of the size of the operation. After weaning, the bulls are ran in bull pastures and all of the ones I have visited, feed their bulls grain in addition to hay/pasture. The bigger producers have more bull pastures or bull paddocks but that is the only difference.
I can agree with that once the bull calf is weaned from the cow. The cow makes the bull.

3. None of the producers I have observed run their bulls under actual field conditions in which the bull is covering lots of ground and covering cows in a breeding situation which would reveal flaws in soundness, etc. Most are selling their bulls as virgins at 12 to 15 months of age. The only criteria for fitness is a BSE.
The bigger operations turn the cows out on pasture to raise their calf on pasture. If the cow can cover ground and fend for itself most the time the calf can also. Look at the human race.

Maybe this is unique to Kentucky but most of the bigger producers, have accumulated several farms. For example, the Boyd's. They have several farms but if you go view their bulls ( and I have with Charlie Sr.), they will drive you into the pastures where the bulls are and you get out and look at the bulls. Those pastures are not more than 10 to 15 acres. Same with all the other producers. You seem to imply that the big producers run their bulls in 10,000 acre pastures and they are living off rocks and broomsedge. Maybe they just operate different in Kentucky.

No matter where you are, THE COW MAKES THE BULL.

 

[True Grit Farms]

TG,
About your 45 cows comment do you remember Homestead Angus in Alabama. I know at one time Banks had just a few cows (~30) and he bred Homestead Sledgehammer that was in the ABS catalog for years. How many cows was Angus Acres running when Angus Acres Power Play was calved? He ended up selling for a little money.. :cowboy:

You didn't offend me I have 47 registered cows so I know there is still a chance.. LOL..

I'm not out to offend anyone, you know the cow makes the calf. You pretty much know what you have going back to the beginning, your breed didn't breed up to pure blood status. And you also know the benefits of AI, and know how to pick and choose. Have you had any 115 lb calves? How about spotted calves?

 

[jscunn]

No spots, had a cow that had two 114 lb calves in a row, the third year she had one that weighed 96 and I wanted to sleeve her to make sure that there wasn't a second one in her. BTW she was a Hereford so the calf was crossbred, happened 8 yrs ago or so.

 

[True Grit Farms]

No spots, had a cow that had two 114 lb calves in a row, the third year she had one that weighed 96 and I wanted to sleeve her to make sure that there wasn't a second one in her. BTW she was a Hereford so the calf was crossbred, happened 8 yrs ago or so.

We're talking Angus here, how many red calves have you had? But here's the big question,how many bulls do you sell a year out of 47 registered cows? My guess is less than 10, and probably around 5. But I honestly have no idea besides I know you look for quality not quantity.

 

[Ky hills]

There's a big difference between using live cover and AI, this operation was using live cover. A small breeder doesn't cull as hard, makes excuses, and can't guarantee or back up their cattle like a larger operation A smaller breeder definitely babysits and pampers their cattle, keeps them in a smaller area so real issues - flaws can't or won't be noticed. Just because the animal has the names, numbers, and DNA doesn't mean it can get the job done. Now anyone that cares to can breed good cattle, there's nothing to making a nice looking animal with good numbers. Heck even a dummy like me can and does sell breeding stock, but I sure don't consider myself a cattle breeder. There's a lot to it to make bulls that will work hard, cover ground and stay healthy. Why is it that the older proven breeders that run 200+ head of cows in working conditions consistently produce the best AI bulls? I'll tell you why, every cow no matter the breeding doesn't always raise a nice calf under working conditions. You can cover a lot of flaws up with a feed bucket and babysitting.

I would venture to say that you are believing the hype and marketing. AI vs live cover is a credible debate, but not always an easy one to prove.
Small breeders don't cull hard and make excuses: That is a painting with a very broad brush. I will cite my ham and egg outfit as proof that small doesn't mean less culling and excuses. I cull for a wide range of reasons, disposition, lack of fertility, bad structure. Funny how some of those AI sires left bad feet and some left daughters that can't keep up with my requirements of having calves at regular intervals. I have stopped registering calves from one of my cow lines as the feet are not up to par with what I think purebred breeding stock should be. I am a full time small time farmer, and I don't have the luxury of keeping and making excuses for cattle that don't produce. Space is at a premium here and i am not about to take up grazing space by holding on to that once nice looking heifer that didn't get bred, or that good cow that lost a calf.
It takes a pretty hardy cow despite what some might think to thrive here. We have some rough rocky hills and quite a bit of mud and cold rain with some spells of snow and ice in a typical winter, these cattle are out in it. The summers can be hot and humid, and factor in fescue based pastures, it ain't a cake walk for them. I do feed grain, to everything daily in the winter months, because our hay is almost always very low quality, I don't feed to fatten them but to maintain. In the summer i will feed some to the weaned calves but again not a lot just to maintain and keep them growing good as the pastures can get pretty thin.
Poor doing cattle are identified pretty easily and culled.

True Grit, you state that you don't consider your self a breeder, but I will attempt to show evidence to the contrary that you could consider yourself as such. Whether purebred or commercial, if one sells breeding stock or maybe even just markets commercial calves from their cowherd they can all be breeders and not just multipliers. You no doubt, put thought and effort into selecting your cows and bulls that work in your environment. You likely have criteria that you use when selecting or culling. You have a management system. Whether large or small your cattle that you sell have something to offer at the very least to some of those in your local area. You could probably even take a bull calf from the center to top of your herd and somehow put him in an AI Stud, with promotion and advertising in the catalogs he could very well hold his own in comparison to the big name well known prefix bulls. Let's face it you just might be a cattle breeder and a darn good one after all. :tiphat: :nod:

 

[callmefence]

Nothing wrong with selling all your bulls as long as they are not misrepresented.
And if everyone did just that epd numbers would actually have some real world value.
I can take any old bull and breed him to enough good cows. Only report his best sons and cut his culls and get good numbers. You want to know what a bulls really got let's look at all his offspring.......... which way is really dishonest.???

 

[jscunn]

Tg,
Last year I sold 3, this year 2 bulls. (I hope). Got some big steers though.. LOL.. It hurt alittle to band some 750 - 800 lb calves at weaning, when you hear of guys in KY selling everything with nuts as a bull.. :bang:

 

[lithuanian farmer]

It's a bit different management and numbers here, but one thing always been bothering me. Let's say a farm is selling all bulls, very good ones and those, which probably should never leave calves. An amateur, just starting farmer comes to buy a bull (or any kind of animal) and he has zero experience with beef cattle, so just chooses whatever bull. He starts building his herd from those animals, which should have been raised for meat. And I have seen plenty examples of low quality animals sold for quite good money, and when you want to sell a good animal everybody says that you ask too much... Everybody got used to lower prices for low quality animals and don't want to understand that the quality cost more.
Very good example seen just recently. A person from a city bought some purebred registered heifers at ~1year age. Butchered one at 21months age as she wasn't growing at all. I mean, she weighed 440lbs... He then is angry that he got very little for her when he sold her to the butcher...

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Tg,
Last year I sold 3, this year 2 bulls. (I hope). Got some big steers though.. LOL.. It hurt alittle to band some 750 - 800 lb calves at weaning, when you hear of guys in KY selling everything with nuts as a bull.. :bang:

most don't want the word getting out that their selling inferior Bulls...just because it's cheaper on one end..its the other end that their looking at.. How's this going to effect me in the future...

 

[Nesikep]

With my 2 dozen cows, I have kept 3 bulls out out the last 200 calves (so 3% of males).. One I have used for myself and he's produced much better calves than the purebred Limo with papers.. The second the jury is out on, I liked his calves at his previous home, but have a few months to see how he does here...
My cows usually have fairly good pasture, sometimes it's overripe and they don't like it, but they'll be made to eat it anyhow.. NOTHING EVER GETS GRAIN, no creep (other than the same hay the cows are eating).

It's just as easy to do it all wrong on a big place as a small one.

Hector has his flaws too, but he sure pays attention to the herd like no other bull I've had. None of his family have ever needed hoof trimming, split hooves, etc and the udders have been far better than most cows I see.
[youtube]https://youtu.be/XpuD6h8-pU8[/youtube]

These two sisters still have to prove themselves in production, but I like their build. No hatchetasses if I have my way

 

[Till-Hill]

There's a big difference between using live cover and AI, this operation was using live cover. A small breeder doesn't cull as hard, makes excuses, and can't guarantee or back up their cattle like a larger operation A smaller breeder definitely babysits and pampers their cattle, keeps them in a smaller area so real issues - flaws can't or won't be noticed. Just because the animal has the names, numbers, and DNA doesn't mean it can get the job done. Now anyone that cares to can breed good cattle, there's nothing to making a nice looking animal with good numbers. Heck even a dummy like me can and does sell breeding stock, but I sure don't consider myself a cattle breeder. There's a lot to it to make bulls that will work hard, cover ground and stay healthy. Why is it that the older proven breeders that run 200+ head of cows in working conditions consistently produce the best AI bulls? I'll tell you why, every cow no matter the breeding doesn't always raise a nice calf under working conditions. You can cover a lot of flaws up with a feed bucket and babysitting.

Bull spit, I run less than 30 cows. We retain every heifer most years. Cows get 1 chance to raise a calf, do it right or your gone because a new one will take your place. 52 day calving season next year as vet called it. I sent 2 of my best numbered cows to town today because they are pricks to deal with. I ain't got time for it. I got a job and a family. My cows do it on their own. You want to see a small operation run cows as hard as humanly possible stop in NE Iowa. And yes I back up my bulls I sell 100%. If I ain't got a spare I'll go buy a better one than I sold you to replace him. We kept 3 this year. I also back up females we sell. Had to give out 3 sale credits and have bought a $3450 open heifer back. Lots of the little guys dont know cow poop from bull poop bull me and my wife do.

 

[elkwc]

There's a big difference between using live cover and AI, this operation was using live cover. A small breeder doesn't cull as hard, makes excuses, and can't guarantee or back up their cattle like a larger operation A smaller breeder definitely babysits and pampers their cattle, keeps them in a smaller area so real issues - flaws can't or won't be noticed. Just because the animal has the names, numbers, and DNA doesn't mean it can get the job done. Now anyone that cares to can breed good cattle, there's nothing to making a nice looking animal with good numbers. Heck even a dummy like me can and does sell breeding stock, but I sure don't consider myself a cattle breeder. There's a lot to it to make bulls that will work hard, cover ground and stay healthy. Why is it that the older proven breeders that run 200+ head of cows in working conditions consistently produce the best AI bulls? I'll tell you why, every cow no matter the breeding doesn't always raise a nice calf under working conditions. You can cover a lot of flaws up with a feed bucket and babysitting.

Vince:

Having seen several of the major producers in Kentucky, my observations do not match your observations.

1. The size of the operations has nothing to do with making excuses or standing behind their cattle. That is a function of individual integrity.
Very true, except a smaller breeder usually doesn't have another bull available as a replacement till next year. If one of the yearling bulls you sold last year went bad can your replace it right now?

2. In Kentucky, bulls are managed very similar regardless of the size of the operation. After weaning, the bulls are ran in bull pastures and all of the ones I have visited, feed their bulls grain in addition to hay/pasture. The bigger producers have more bull pastures or bull paddocks but that is the only difference.
I can agree with that once the bull calf is weaned from the cow. The cow makes the bull.

3. None of the producers I have observed run their bulls under actual field conditions in which the bull is covering lots of ground and covering cows in a breeding situation which would reveal flaws in soundness, etc. Most are selling their bulls as virgins at 12 to 15 months of age. The only criteria for fitness is a BSE.
The bigger operations turn the cows out on pasture to raise their calf on pasture. If the cow can cover ground and fend for itself most the time the calf can also. Look at the human race.

Maybe this is unique to Kentucky but most of the bigger producers, have accumulated several farms. For example, the Boyd's. They have several farms but if you go view their bulls ( and I have with Charlie Sr.), they will drive you into the pastures where the bulls are and you get out and look at the bulls. Those pastures are not more than 10 to 15 acres. Same with all the other producers. You seem to imply that the big producers run their bulls in 10,000 acre pastures and they are living off rocks and broomsedge. Maybe they just operate different in Kentucky.

No matter where you are, THE COW MAKES THE BULL.

I agree the cow makes the bull but the size of the herd don't. I mentioned two examples and could list several more. There have been and currently are several prominent AI sires that were bred in small herds. And some very good bulls raised in small linebred closed herds. Just go look at Hereford pedigrees and see how often you find the CJH or the Moler prefix in a pedigree. Look at JMB Traction. Again not from a large herd.

 

[Nesikep]

As for culling hard.. I have a lot of cows I'd like to cull.. they're making calves while I find replacements I like better (and they prove themselves).. they're terminal cows, and I'd consider about half my herd to be that.. doesn't matter to my breeding program whether I have them or not.

while there are advantages to large operations, they have disadvantages too.. ain't no way they know the docility of them all (they probably will all either run you over or run the fence over).. And just because you have more stock to choose from doesn't mean the average is any better.. If you wanted 10 bulls from a small guy like me or 10 from 2000, well, you'll get the better 10 from the large herd probably because they could all be top picks.

 

[boondocks]

TG, my herd would beg to differ that they're spoiled. No grain, no cutesy names, not always moved when they whine to be. You should come see them along about late Jan. Might have to find them in the blizzard though. You'll find them living in the lap of luxury ie huddled under a windbreak. Oh and here's our luxury birthing suite (calf is about 2hrs old)

 

[gcreekrch]

I actually prefer the smaller breeders for seed stock. They know their cattle back to front and usually search for the best genetics for each cow with an aim to what they are trying to do. They are limited to what they can keep and cull hard. Big breeders will always have a percentage of cattle that are there to make up numbers and are forced to take a more general direction to their breeding. If i have 30 cows can easily use 30 different sires with A.I. to match them up. If i have 3000 cattle it would be much more difficult. Having said that the small breeder could not survive without the big number breeders because that is where he will source his semen from.

I have been away for a few months and thought I would check in. This is the first topic that caught my eye. A couple of points........ Smaller breeders in this area tend to have their cattle as a hobby and tax writeoff rather than a sole business, the resulting pets that never leave the herd because the owner doesn't mind milking out turnip shaped teats or trimming feet raises bulls that put those traits into commercial herds. On the other side of the coin, most larger outfits run their cattle similar to commercial outfits and haven't got the time to milk old Bessie so her calf can suck or trim the herd's feet so they can walk without limping.


The other point that many chasing the AI game seem to miss is consistancy. How does a potential customer get consistancy from a breeders herd if said breeder is using 30 different sires on 30 different cows? More than a few of u run more than one bull and would prefer to buy groups of half or three quarter brothers to produce consistant and therefore much more marketable groups of calves.