Angus Breeder

[Bright Raven]

This week I was part of a group that visited a registered Angus Breeder that produces Angus Breeding stock. The operation runs 45 registered Angus cows. They have a fall and spring calving season. The herd bulls are Boyd Bulls.

Here is what absolutely amazed me:

I was with the owner privately while they fed the bulls. All the bulls were in one pasture and were brought up to a feed area. There were about 20 some bulls. As a group, the bulls were very nice. They were 12 months old and were on a combination of pasture and feed. The feed was a custom mix. As we were feeding the bulls, I noticed that about 5 of the bulls were very common. They were shallow, not well muscled, just simply very common. In contrast, the majority of the bulls were very nice. Of the 20 some bulls, I would say 15 of the bulls were outstanding and probably weighted 1000 to 1200 pounds at 12 months of age. I made a comment to the owner as to what they were going to do with about 5 of the bulls that were clearly not breeding quality. I pointed these bulls out. The owner very calmly told me "All the bulls will be sold as breeding bulls". I ask, "Don't you cull ANY bulls?" The answer was NO.

I ask, how do you justify selling those bulls? And I pointed to a couple and bluntly said - the bull is not worthy of the rest of your bulls.

The owner handled the comments extremely well. The owner replied, "Selling bulls is first come, first service. The bulls are sold until they are gone. I can sell more bulls than I can produce. The price is commensurate with the quality of the bull. Ron, the bulls that you pointed out will sell to folks who don't want to pay for a better bull."

 

[Coosh71]

Interesting... In a way his reasoning makes sense and then again it doesn't. We do have a local Black Angus breeder that use to be strictly registered. They have gotten older (80s) and now don't bother registering anything. They run 200+ cows from past registered stock and still produce nice replacements and bulls. However, I've been to their commercial sales in years past and they have some powerhouse bulls and some really nice "steer" bulls. They will still bring (starting at) $3000 for a yearling bull at 1000-1200# no papers. I've seen a non registered bull go for $6500 there about 2-3 years ago.

 

[Lazy M]

I understand your implied disgust, but I think that I have to agree with the breeder. He's not being dishonest and has no obligation to cull bulls that aren't as well developed as others. The buyers can choose to purchase or not. I think that those of us in agriculture leave money on the table sometimes because we take "pride" in the product that we produce. From a business prospective his practice is sound. Now if he's fudging bw, ww, yw or bse results he's dishonest and I have a major problem with his operation.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

There are two sides to this. One is that a seedstock breeder should have integrity and a sharp knife. They should be willing and able to make the cut (literally and figuratively) when it comes to culling. The flip side is that there is a certain segment of the population that will not pay more than slaughter price for their "breeding stock". If they can't find a lower quality and cheaply priced bull from a seedstock producer, they will pick up whatever fits their bill at the sale barn. Is the el cheapo bull lower quality than his counterparts from the same breeder....very likely! Is he still better than 90% of what runs through the sale barn....chances are yes! The fact is that the breeder just gets a bit more money from Mr El Cheapo private treaty than at the barn where he may end up with Mr El Cheapo anyway....

Im sure there are those who will scoff from the hight of their ivory towers about selling inferior breeding stock. There are those who will say their herd was built at a sale barn and has served them well. Maybe they are both right in the end...

 

[Lazy M]

BTW interesting topic. I look forward to reading the replies

 

[Coosh71]

M. I was at a sale yesterday hauling a couple older cows. I sat thru the entire sale and saw about 15-20 young bulls( 9-12 months) go thru and were purchased for pennies compared to what you would find at a bull sale. There were a hand full of buyers there that we're buying them like crazy. Made me wonder... Are they buying bulls to steer or are they buying some really cheap mystery bulls.

 

[True Grit Farms]

That's the problem in all the cattle breeds. I feel it's the breeders responsibility to police themselves if they're going to be selling registered breeding stock. Otherwise I see no reason not to sell a bull to a customer that's willing to buy what you have. I can't imagine someone would consider buying from a breeder who only has 45 registered cows, especially from a herd that are pasture bred by bulls.
I was at what I consider a real Brangus breeder last week. They run 2000 head of registered Brangus cows and sorted out 300 bulls to sell. After 2 months of back grounding and culling as they saw fit, they ended up with 238 bulls for sale last year. I consider them breeders and not multipliers.

 

[Caustic Burno]

BTW interesting topic. I look forward to reading the replies

I don’t know about the rest of the world in my little corner his reputation would be shot. The commercial cattlemen drive the market not the registered. They will simply turn to a better black hide that will produce.
If it doesn’t have nuts,guts and butts it won’t fly no matter the breed IMO.

 

[Ky hills]

Back in the early 90's I sold Charolais bulls with that same reasoning, it was commonplace to do so. The reality was then that a significant number of prospective bull buyers in and around this area were more interested in cheaper bulls than better ones that were priced just a little higher. I was always up front and would tell why particular bulls were priced less, usually due to being younger, horned or lighter muscled. I would never knowingly misrepresent something or offer for sale an animal that I thought would be problematic in any way. I was a teen starting out in that business at the time and from what I could tell the other more established breeders kept most if not all of their bulls as well. It does seem like now with more focus on quality that more breeders across the breeds are being more selective with their sale bulls.
In recent years when looking for bulls, I have seen some bulls that in my opinion should not have been offered for sale as breeding stock, i.e. a bull with only one testicle, a bull with a marginal semen check. For the most part though quality seems to have improved across the board for most breeders,

 

[frieghttrain]

That's the problem in all the cattle breeds. I feel it's the breeders responsibility to police themselves if they're going to be selling registered breeding stock. Otherwise I see no reason not to sell a bull to a customer that's willing to buy what you have. I can't imagine someone would consider buying from a breeder who only has 45 registered cows, especially from a herd that are pasture bred by bulls.
I was at what I consider a real Brangus breeder last week. They run 2000 head of registered Brangus cows and sorted out 300 bulls to sell. After 2 months of back grounding and culling as they saw fit, they ended up with 238 bulls for sale last year. I consider them breeders and not multipliers.

Low #s doesnt mean low quality. Some of those little breeders are running d@mn good cattle.

 

[kentuckyguy]

That's the problem in all the cattle breeds. I feel it's the breeders responsibility to police themselves if they're going to be selling registered breeding stock. Otherwise I see no reason not to sell a bull to a customer that's willing to buy what you have. I can't imagine someone would consider buying from a breeder who only has 45 registered cows, especially from a herd that are pasture bred by bulls.
I was at what I consider a real Brangus breeder last week. They run 2000 head of registered Brangus cows and sorted out 300 bulls to sell. After 2 months of back grounding and culling as they saw fit, they ended up with 238 bulls for sale last year. I consider them breeders and not multipliers.

Are you insinuating that someone with 15-20 cows cannot produce quality breeding stock?

Some of the best cattle breeders around here only have 20-30 head. Being this small allows them to really pay attention to the details.

When you live in rural areas your reputation means more than anything. Word may not spread fast when your doing things right but it won’t take long for word to get around if you treat people wrong or sell inferior animals.

As far as what the Angus breeder is doing I see no problem with it. It is the responsibility of the buyer to make observations about the animal and make a educated decision. As long as the seller is not misrepresenting his bulls I see no problem.

I would feel pretty safe in saying 80% of farmers with cattle in my local 100 mile area never give any more than $1500 for a bull. Most want to buy them 6 months old for $6-700.

You can have bulls for sale with perfect EPD’s and phenotype, but at the end of the day they are only worth what people in your area are willing to pay.

 

[Ky hills]

That's the problem in all the cattle breeds. I feel it's the breeders responsibility to police themselves if they're going to be selling registered breeding stock. Otherwise I see no reason not to sell a bull to a customer that's willing to buy what you have. I can't imagine someone would consider buying from a breeder who only has 45 registered cows, especially from a herd that are pasture bred by bulls.
I was at what I consider a real Brangus breeder last week. They run 2000 head of registered Brangus cows and sorted out 300 bulls to sell. After 2 months of back grounding and culling as they saw fit, they ended up with 238 bulls for sale last year. I consider them breeders and not multipliers.

That's your opinion and I respect that, but that I see that as a misconception, those smaller breeders and there are many of them are likely using the same genetics as the big boys. A smaller breeder is just as likely and capable of having good quality cattle as someone with a large number. If memory serves me correctly the farm that produced CRA Bextor just had a few but high quality cows. Just my opinion but many of the registered outfits fall under the concept of multipliers regardless of size, not saying that as a negative term, just that the same genetics are largely being replicated through out the industry.

 

[elkwc]

That's the problem in all the cattle breeds. I feel it's the breeders responsibility to police themselves if they're going to be selling registered breeding stock. Otherwise I see no reason not to sell a bull to a customer that's willing to buy what you have. I can't imagine someone would consider buying from a breeder who only has 45 registered cows, especially from a herd that are pasture bred by bulls.
I was at what I consider a real Brangus breeder last week. They run 2000 head of registered Brangus cows and sorted out 300 bulls to sell. After 2 months of back grounding and culling as they saw fit, they ended up with 238 bulls for sale last year. I consider them breeders and not multipliers.

That's your opinion and I respect that, but that I see that as a misconception, those smaller breeders and there are many of them are likely using the same genetics as the big boys. A smaller breeder is just as likely and capable of having good quality cattle as someone with a large number. If memory serves me correctly the farm that produced CRA Bextor just had a few but high quality cows. Just my opinion but many of the registered outfits fall under the concept of multipliers regardless of size, not saying that as a negative term, just that the same genetics are largely being replicated through out the industry.

One of the best Hereford breeders in the past were two brothers 40 miles from me and had a small herd. Ever hear of CJH Harland 408? And another small Hereford breeder named Moler has had a major influence on the Hereford breed. These are just two examples. I could list many more in both Herefords and Angus.

 

[Luckiamute]

That's the problem in all the cattle breeds. I feel it's the breeders responsibility to police themselves if they're going to be selling registered breeding stock. Otherwise I see no reason not to sell a bull to a customer that's willing to buy what you have. I can't imagine someone would consider buying from a breeder who only has 45 registered cows, especially from a herd that are pasture bred by bulls.
I was at what I consider a real Brangus breeder last week. They run 2000 head of registered Brangus cows and sorted out 300 bulls to sell. After 2 months of back grounding and culling as they saw fit, they ended up with 238 bulls for sale last year. I consider them breeders and not multipliers.

Couldn't disagree with your comment more. Bigger isn't always better ... in fact, it rarely is in my opinion. There are a number of people raising great cattle and doing so in small herds -- Angus, Hereford, etc. You don't need 10,000 acres and 1,000 head to be a "real breeder" of quality cattle.

 

[Redgully]

I actually prefer the smaller breeders for seed stock. They know their cattle back to front and usually search for the best genetics for each cow with an aim to what they are trying to do. They are limited to what they can keep and cull hard. Big breeders will always have a percentage of cattle that are there to make up numbers and are forced to take a more general direction to their breeding. If i have 30 cows can easily use 30 different sires with A.I. to match them up. If i have 3000 cattle it would be much more difficult. Having said that the small breeder could not survive without the big number breeders because that is where he will source his semen from.

 

[boondocks]

I appreciate the comments supporting small breeders. The most we have ever had is a couple dozen (currently a few less than that). Any potential buyer that has ever come to look at our cattle has bought one or more. We started with hardy registered stock from a long-established herd, and have bred solely AI since then. We have an expert that looks over our proposed matings (sometimes agreeing, sometimes making alternate suggestions). We have steered every bull calf but two (one last year, one this year) which went to buyers who were happy to get them and see how they grow out further. We have learned a lot, and have a lot more to learn, but I can tell you about every cow and calf in my field. And no, they're not named. :lol:

 

[wbvs58]

Ron, you said their ages were around 12 months. I would suspect the 5 that you refer to may have been the youngest or out a lower milking cow, maybe heifers first calf. Many of these will catch up in their 2nd year, I know, I have a couple of cows that will produce my top bulls as 2 yr olds but their calves will be in the bottom half at weaning. Those economy buyers might end up with the top bull.

Ken

 

[True Grit Farms]

There's a big difference between using live cover and AI, this operation was using live cover. A small breeder doesn't cull as hard, makes excuses, and can't guarantee or back up their cattle like a larger operation A smaller breeder definitely babysits and pampers their cattle, keeps them in a smaller area so real issues - flaws can't or won't be noticed. Just because the animal has the names, numbers, and DNA doesn't mean it can get the job done. Now anyone that cares to can breed good cattle, there's nothing to making a nice looking animal with good numbers. Heck even a dummy like me can and does sell breeding stock, but I sure don't consider myself a cattle breeder. There's a lot to it to make bulls that will work hard, cover ground and stay healthy. Why is it that the older proven breeders that run 200+ head of cows in working conditions consistently produce the best AI bulls? I'll tell you why, every cow no matter the breeding doesn't always raise a nice calf under working conditions. You can cover a lot of flaws up with a feed bucket and babysitting.

 

[Gators Rule]

Maybe the 5 bulls are younger or later maturing? If later maturing, I would think that their calves would mature later as well. Something to think about if selling calves as weanlings.

Also, one person’s ideal bull may not be another person’s ideal bull. That breeder’s low end bull may still improve another breeder’s herd if they are low end cattle. OR, the 5 bulls may just stink.

 

[Bright Raven]

Ron, you said their ages were around 12 months. I would suspect the 5 that you refer to may have been the youngest or out a lower milking cow, maybe heifers first calf. Many of these will catch up in their 2nd year, I know, I have a couple of cows that will produce my top bulls as 2 yr olds but their calves will be in the bottom half at weaning. Those economy buyers might end up with the top bull.

Ken

They were all September 2017 bulls. I specifically ask to be sure. These 5 bulls just simply did not have the phenotype of the other 15 bulls.