An Angus question.

[Australian Cattleman]

Who knows much about Bon View New Design 1407 ?
Just had a look at a semen catalogue he's by far the best bodied bull in the catalogue. Want to use him over some South Devon heifers to produce a composite called Australis. I have a few of them already by a black bull with red breeding. Have all red progeny. Would like some black progeny to further my Black South Devon breeding.
Colin

 

[seth]

I'll be blunt! I'm not a fan of New Design 1407. He has become popular largely due to his carcass genetics but my experience is that he doesn't sire nearly enough muscle as evidenced by thick tops and big butts. Most of his progeny that I have seen tend to be narrow butted. Certainly when a sire is used as much as he has been you will find some good progeny but generally I find the 1407's dissappointing. Depth of body he may have but that is where the dimension in the 1407 cattle ends.

In my opinion there are several American Angus sire lines that have become popular because of carcass genetics, especially marbling, that are otherwise pretty plain cattle if not inferior. (Precision and Rockin R Ambush come to mind) Anybody else recognize this?

 

[Jake]

I'll be blunt! I'm not a fan of New Design 1407. He has become popular largely due to his carcass genetics but my experience is that he doesn't sire nearly enough muscle as evidenced by thick tops and big butts. Most of his progeny that I have seen tend to be narrow butted. Certainly when a sire is used as much as he has been you will find some good progeny but generally I find the 1407's dissappointing. Depth of body he may have but that is where the dimension in the 1407 cattle ends.

In my opinion there are several American Angus sire lines that have become popular because of carcass genetics, especially marbling, that are otherwise pretty plain cattle if not inferior. (Precision and Rockin R Ambush come to mind) Anybody else recognize this?

I'd second you on that exact opinion. Seems to me every 1407 progeny I've seen needed a bag of corn tied to their head to keep them in decent flesh also.

 

[SEC]

Seth, is just jealous that he was runner on trying to buy 1407 when Big K bought him.

HA HA HA HA ! Just kidding! I couldn't resist.

To add to the comments already, back leg structure is rotten. I have a stifled 2 year heifer with better back legs then the 1407's do.

People are hypocritical when it comes to wanting to do their own thing. Lots of guys want an outcross bull, but if you have one then the EPD's are good enough to try.

There are a ton of bulls better than the top 10 bulls in semen sales, but most of them are in the hills where only the owner can see them. Promotion and who you are will take cattle further then their own merit themselves.

 

[rwilliams]

i couldnt sit by and watch 1407 take a beating.imo he is areal solid bull. alot of people in the area used him,gotten alot of good sires.no feet problems.the females udders are sometimes not perfect.thickness is no problem.sometimes we forget the cow being bred to him is part of the equation too.clubby calves he wont produce, productive cattle he will. jmo

 

[Frankie]

Who knows much about Bon View New Design 1407 ?
Just had a look at a semen catalogue he's by far the best bodied bull in the catalogue. Want to use him over some South Devon heifers to produce a composite called Australis. I have a few of them already by a black bull with red breeding. Have all red progeny. Would like some black progeny to further my Black South Devon breeding.
Colin

He's got a lot of use here in Oklahoma, probably because Express Angus has an interest. We didn't use him mostly because we didn't like his bottom line. But I've seen a lot of sons sell in different sales. They looked good and buyers liked them. I think that's the bottom line, whether people will pay for the genetics and they're doing it. I'm sure he's not magic either, but he's only half the calf anyway. Good luck....

 

[rwilliams]

OH,BY THE WAY, THERE IS SOMEONE THAT IS A REGULAR CONTRIBUTOR ON THIS BOARD THAT IS PROMOTING A 1407 SON PRETTY HEAVILY, MAYBE HE CAN SHED SOME LIGHT ON THIS

 

[mtnman]

He sucks.

Unless you have 500 cows to breed him to so that you can sort them enough to find the really good ones.

Just a huge case of spending enough money on a bull to be able to market him.

mtnman

 

[rwilliams]

Idont have 500head, he fits in my program.But there alot of good sires that dont.Iguess it is all in what you want to accomplish. jmo

 

[endebt]

We have a few of his calves. We are very happy with them. We bred him to hiefer. With low b/w and young hiefers it seemed to take the calves about 3 extra months to develop in to full cows and replacement bulls. I would use him again but have daughters already.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

This discussion regarding Bon View New Design 1407 (Angus Bull), as is often the case when a particular Bull (or Cow) is under the gun, has gradually worked itself into a collection of biased opinions - some with good reasons gleaned from personal experiences, and some which are just prejudicial, based primarilly on what other's opinions may be - for WHATEVER reasons. "What BREED is best for ? ? ? ? ? ?" is another rhetorical subject which often elicits vituperative discourse in the guise of debate, and invariably results in NO changes of minds, and all debate participants feeling and believing exactly the same thoughts and opinions as they did prior to the beginning of discussions.

When considering performance, growth and carcass traits, 1407 is one of the top bulls in the Angus Breed. No animal is perfect, and he is no exception. I would like to see a greater depth and thickness of his hindquarters, but relatively speaking he is not too bad in that regard either. In the past two years his progeny has exceeded those of most other current Angus sires, and that is the proof of the pudding. His Carcass EPD's make for exemplary offspring, and some of his sons are giving him a real run for the money - Rito 2V1 of 2536 1407 and Riverbend Mile High 3718 being two of the most prominent. As those of you who have been reading my posts are aware, I am critical of the weaknesses of the Angus Breed - lacking optimal size of hindquarters being prime among them. I call them "Funnel Butts" - looking from a side view and also a rear view as it they have been jammed down into a funnel, resulting in 'undesirable' hindquarters and lacking depth and thickness of Rounds. Conceding that point of the debate, I persist in contending that the Angus Breed should be a part of any CROSSBREEDING system, and Bon View New Design 1407, with all of his faults, and his progeny, could certainly be a large part of that Composite program.

There are many who will disagree with my philosophies, and that is their option, however most facts speak for themselves and, despite the given negative and certain recessive characteristics that every animal will posses, 1407 et al is a prime example of Genetic Improvement being alive and well. The exciting potential of these genetic refinements makes one wonder where and when the next "Phenomenal Beef Improver" will surface, and take the Beef World by storm!

DOC HARRIS

 

[KMacGinley]

I think that there are far better bulls than 1407 to use for less, money. they used to want 50 bucks for a straw. I don't think that he has much natual thickness and muscle. I think most people look at that pretty sideview shot of him all fitted up and buy a cane or two. I have never seen a rearview shot of him. Wonder why?
I have heard a rumor that he has some good sons out there, but again, haven't seen any, that with some white added wouldn't pass for a holstein.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I think that there are far better bulls than 1407 to use for less, money. they used to want 50 bucks for a straw. I don't think that he has much natual thickness and muscle. I think most people look at that pretty sideview shot of him all fitted up and buy a cane or two. I have never seen a rearview shot of him. Wonder why?
I have heard a rumor that he has some good sons out there, but again, haven't seen any, that with some white added wouldn't pass for a holstein.

Good morning Mac! I have seen several sons of 1407 - a couple were embarassments and I wouldn't have them on the place - but the Dams were ALSO lousy "Funnel Butts" which I wouldn't have on the place, either! But I have seen Riverbend Mile High 3718 - (14512407) :shock: :shock: , and his Dam, GAR Precision 1919 is a :shock: knock-OUT! Mile High's EPD are exemplary - CED 10, CEM 11, Birth .5, WW 54, YW 104+ SC +39(!) MM 33 (Too High for me, but combined with all the Positive EPD's I can live with that!). NOW, let's look at Carcass EPD's: Marb:+.40, REA:+21, and those were over a year ago and were Interim figures. They are undoubtedly higher now. US: %IMF:+50, UREA: +94. $W +29.36, $F +41.42, $G +28.14, $B +56.20.

I didn't detect ANY Holstein in evidence! As I have reiterated over and over many times - the DAMS are CRITICAL in the determination of what a bull's POTENTIAL may be!

I have not seen Rito 2V1 of 2536 1407 - (14088249) and his stats are even MORE impressive! :shock: :shock: :shock: :lol: . . . .AND - his DAM is GAR Precision 2536 - THE Carcass Champion Cow of the Angus Breed! (And NO Holstein here, either). The DAMS DICTATE the DETERMINING DECISIONS!

DOC HARRIS

 

[KMacGinley]

Hi Doc, haven't been on much lately, my daughter graduated yesterday and we have been preparing for the open house for weeks it seems like.
I think a great bull should throw a good calf on an average or below average cow. If he can't, then he probably shouldn't cost $50 per straw.

 

[BA]

2VI is pretty ordinary, he was at Rocky Mountain Sires recently and looked average at best. Not real heavy muscled and not overly thick. A good number bull, though!

 

[DOC HARRIS]

2VI is pretty ordinary, he was at Rocky Mountain Sires recently and looked average at best. Not real heavy muscled and not overly thick. A good number bull, though!

BA - I wouldn't be surprised but what he was in "breeding" condition, because they have collected him pretty heavily. But I haven't seen him in person, so you would have a better handle on that than I would. Of course, "Pretty is as Pretty DOES!"

DOC HARRIS

 

[BA]

That definately could be the reason. That was my only time of seing him in person.

 

[SEC]

When i was asked this spring how much 2V1 semen i would need in inventory to sell because he is the hot ticket blah blah blah. I stated that I wouldn't sell his semen to my worst enemy. I believe they were a little shocked, but I don't care.

I would guarantee you if you didn't disclose his paperwork or EPD's we would have trouble getting a $2500 bid on the bull. I have seen other bulls that looked like him and they don't even bring that. Where he comes from, EPD's and of course pedigree put him in the limelight. He shows no sign of masculinity, i always thought masculine bulls produce feminine daughters. Maybe 2V1 will throw masculine daughters.

2V1 would be the prime example of why I think this carcass craze is a complete joke. If that's the kind of cattle that we need to raise, I quit. I would bet that his nuts would fit in a tea cup, just like 1407.

I would bet also that if a regular Joe tried to market, 1407 semen it wouldn't happen. Just because the right people own him he became popular.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

SEC- Having never seen 2V1, I guess all one can do is read the information on him, and compare that to other bull's info and papers. (EPD's). The next step in that process would be to eyeball the individual himself, AND observe his progeny.

Quaker Hill Farm had a Mature Cow Herd dispersal last Saturday, June 3, 2006. I don't know what the sale averaged, but a couple of his sons sold for $4000 ea., which did surprise me, given what I THOUGHT I knew about him. Your more intimate appraisal would seem to carry more water than mine.

This is another object lesson in "Bull Buying" skills. It points out the necessity of using every tool at one's disposal to be successful at obtaining the services of the best sire at one's disposal. Phenotype, Genotype (EPD's), VISUAL OBSERVATIONS!, and word of mouth from people who have "been there and done that!" would seem to be a big part of the picture in selection technics. Thanks for your input SEC.

DOC HARRIS

 

[farmerD44]

So- are there any bulls in the AI studs that any of u think would qualify as a great BEEF bull rather than a PAPER bull???

Seems like almost everything with good EPDs has either precision or new design blood in it- which many of u say is no good. We have some nice looking cattle from both of these lines but they definetely don't have the hind end that our simmentals do.

Anyone have any thoughts on the "Nebraska" bulls???? Select Sires has one son now.

Dan.