An Angus question.

Help Support CattleToday:

DOC HARRIS

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2005
Messages
3,256
Reaction score
1
Location
Ft. Collins, CO
We have some nice looking cattle from both of these lines but they definetely don't have the hind end that our simmentals do
farmerD44-This is a prime example of why cattle selection (Bulls particularly) must involve study, observation, knowledge and research! The specific genes which comprise the Angus Breed centralize and concentrate on the Production and Maternal Traits, and the Angus Breed does that very well! The several Continental Breeds, on the other hand, are comprised of traits that focus on Carcass, and broad, thick, deep Phenotype appearance - hindquarters that are thick, wide and deep and shoulders and loins in similar manner.

For the above genetic reasons, cross breeding and Composites are becoming the desired method of acquiring the feedlot cattle that are bringing higher prices and satisfying demands of those who feed the world. The swine breeders learned that lesson years ago, as did the poultry breeders. Now it is OUR turn to bury our past prejudices concerning "Favorite Breeds" and start producing BEEF CATTLE!

DOC HARRIS
 

SEC

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2006
Messages
889
Reaction score
0
Location
Saskatchewan
I appreciate your open mindedness (if that's a word) Doc.

We all have an idea in our head what a bull is supposed to look like as well a cow. The last 5 years has been more and more disappointing to me in the beef industry with certain types of cattle, their popularity and what i feel are critical holes in these types of cattle. I seen over 4000 bulls every spring who knows how many females throughout the year and it gets me fired up about this stuff.

I won't say that i am always right, but i do think that i am far from being wrong. My feelings towards certain bloodlines might not always be fair, to me they are logical and has served us well.

FarmerD44- the bulls that i think that could fit the criteria you mention are in front of you everyday. Many can't see, many refuse to see and some simply aren't looking. I know if health restrictions didn't stop semen from crossing the borders into Canada i would love to try some in a heartbeat. I also believe that we are responsible for our own vacuum. Visiting with breeders in Canada the question is, "what bulls should we be trying to use or buy out of the States" Hype is no different up here than it is in the USA, people are drawn to crowds. Sometimes they are just fads and sometimes they are
warranted ! I don't believe that the cattle in the USA are any better than up here. The fact of the matter is the same everywhere. In a general area we know what works from what breeders, when you are a 3000 miles away how do we know what cattle and lines are really going to work. Publicity and certain breeders marketing get business done! Hair on them for that, those breeders that have done an honest job marketing the cattle and they are truly what they are said to be. I won't deny or discredit their hard work and effort.

Up here, we don't have the EPD's that many of the American cattle do. i know that doesn't change the quality, but for the most part we aren't as number conscious and the visual appraisal is first and foremost. There are a whack of bulls that many Americans would like if they would set aside EPD's, likewise up here we only see the bulls available with the high EPD's are stud companies don't enlist bulls with average EPD's.

People everywhere beg for an outcross bloodline and when it appears nobody uses it because they know nothing of it or the EPD's aren't good enough. Plain hypocritical!

If EPD's were to disappear I would love to see how many breeders would be able to make a good solid choice on their on. 40 years ago breeders didn't have EPD's and they seemed to have bred a few good animals. Probably was just fluke though.
 

Brandonm2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
0
Location
Alabama
DOC HARRIS":1c4nczwb said:
This discussion regarding Bon View New Design 1407 (Angus Bull), as is often the case when a particular Bull (or Cow) is under the gun, has gradually worked itself into a collection of biased opinions - some with good reasons gleaned from personal experiences, and some which are just prejudicial, based primarilly on what other's opinions may be - for WHATEVER reasons. "What BREED is best for ? ? ? ? ? ?" is another rhetorical subject which often elicits vituperative discourse in the guise of debate, and invariability results in NO changes of minds, and all debate participants feeling and believing exactly the same thoughts and opinions as they did prior to the beginning of discussions.
DOC HARRIS

I agree. I have never seen 1407 in person, probably will never buy his semen, and his name certainly would not have leaped to my head as being amoung the top ten Angus sires in history; BUT some of the criticism he received in this string has been OVER THE TOP!!! IF I am buying a bull all it takes is one trait which does not meet my criteria. IF "I think" a bull is weaktopped, lacks muscling, is too short, too tall, not long enough, too long, has too high a birth wt, too low a weaning wt., has sucky carcass EPDs, has an awkward gait, has a mama I just did not like, OR I thought just acted too wild, etc I am not going to buy the dude. IF one trait does not meet my minimal criteria then I certainly won't use him....even if more experienced persons thought differently. I am not telling anybody to use or NOT to use 1407. I know him only through reputation and promotion so really don't have an opinion on THAT topic. BUT some posters in this string I think have tended too pile on to make their rationale for not using the bull even stronger. 1407 may not be perfect (who is???) and I could certainly make a case for NOT using him but I don't think he is the mediocre basketcase that some here have claimed he is either. I am not defending 1407 here; but rather am pointing out that some posters MAY at times exaggerate some too strengthen their arguments.
 

BRG

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
1,352
Reaction score
0
Location
NW SD
SEC,

I agree with you. People follow way to much in the cattle industry. They use the "popular" bull. But "popular" doesn't always mean it is right. People believe that the "popular" studs have the bulls it takes to get to the next level(angus & red angus), but in reality, most of the bulls they buy are mainly heifer bulls with great EPDs. This is one reason why the muscle is slowly disappearing. If people got out and see the stuff they are pushing(not all bulls, but alot of them) you would shake your head. I was with a group of guys this past spring at a stud, and they all asked, how do they ever sell any semen? But they get a good photo, have great EPDs and people flock to them. This is why we quit using the "popular" bulls. We will only use bulls that we have seen or offspring that we have seen. I really like to see the dam too. This year I am only breeding to bulls that we own. We have spent nearly as much $ on them as the bulls in the studs and I am going to see what they can do.

The EPDs are now pretty dam good, but alot of them got that way by breeding with a computer. This is no way to make a cow, but it seems some do it. A friend once told me, "the cowboys will rise to the top if they ever eliminate EPDs". Now I am not against EPDs because I think they are a good tool, but it seems that the industry forgot that, and use them more like a bible than a tool.
 

SEC

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2006
Messages
889
Reaction score
0
Location
Saskatchewan
Tell it to the mountains BRG.

I become a litle cynical to EPD's but mostly because they way they are looked upon.

This year we only used 2 outside bulls other than the ones we own. We used 3210 Right Time D919 on a few cows, probably something to go in a sale and the Buffalos Conclusive bull on the flush. After that we used 2 sons of the cow we posted a while back for AI and our herdbulls, Max, Granite (Yellowstone grandson) and a son of North Fork Advisor. We are talking the talk so we must walk the walk.
 

wyograybull

Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
17
Reaction score
0
Location
Wyoming
Maybe people could find more true BEEF bulls.......if hide color wasn't so many producer's number one selection criteria.
 

SEC

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2006
Messages
889
Reaction score
0
Location
Saskatchewan
I believe many on this post are breeding registered cattle.

On the other hand, good or bad. Black hide is what the market is calling for in general.

To bad other breeds have to lose their identity in changing color, breeding styles and breed characteristics.
 

DOC HARRIS

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2005
Messages
3,256
Reaction score
1
Location
Ft. Collins, CO
There have been discussions, posts, threads, ideas, opinions, likes and dislikes, and, yes, an abundance of dogma presented in the last few days on this "1407 and his progeny" subject, and I feel that it has AGAIN pointed out the irrefutable fact and truth that it requires a COMBINATION of selection skills and abilities when making a decision to purchase a Bull OR a cow. It has been said over and over on these forums that EPD's and other technics of decision-making are TOOLS, and nothing is "Set in Concrete" insofar as perfection is concerned.

Read, Listen, and LEARN. And reading, and listening to Cattlemen who have EXPERIENCE is an accepted method of educating one's self!

DOC HARRIS
 

jnowack

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
329
Reaction score
0
Location
MO
It always seemed to me that some of the high rollers (all breeds..not picking on angus) over emphasize epd's and pedigree. I think the reason for this is that a lot of them don't have a great eye for cattle but they can compare numbers and pedigrees so that is what they focus on.

Just a thought.
 

mcangus

Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2006
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Location
Northern New York
Do any of you realize that phenotype and carcass are 2 different things that can't be evaluated standing there looking at the animal
 

DOC HARRIS

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2005
Messages
3,256
Reaction score
1
Location
Ft. Collins, CO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you mean carcass can't be analyzed by standing looking at an animal?
I guess that depends upon who is doing the standing and who is doing the looking! :shock: :roll:

DOC HARRIS
 

capt

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Messages
145
Reaction score
0
Location
the 38th State
It seems to me Australian Cattleman that your question has not really been answered so I will offer my opinion in the spirit of what Doc Harris suggests. I have seen a lot of progeny of 1407 in many different herds and here is my statement on what he does well and what he does not do well. Those using 1407 will most likely see small calves born easily not weighing very much (60-80 lbs). Somewhere between 60 and 90 days of age you will think to yourself, "where did those tiny frail looking babies go and where did this sudden onset of growth come from?" About weaning time you will like what the scale says and probably not what your eyes see. Heavy calves that are weak topped, poorly constructed hind legs and hip. Come yearling time they have not changed much for phenotype (still weak topped with too much hind leg set and slope to the hip), but they will be considerably heavier. The heifers will all breed fairly well and come calving time for them will calve easily with small b irth weight calves of their own. THEN you will notice what some people seem to think as holstein influence. MILK, MILK, MILK and then some more milk. The yearling bulls will not look like much but will have been born small, grew fast and scanned way bigger REA's than seem possible by looking at them and really solid IMF numbers. If anyone out there can not see some truth to this please let me know, because it seems to me that you have identified an outlier to what the (average) 1407 is. I amnot trying to be sarcastic or anything other than laying out there what my honest experience with 1407 has been. I will not use him anymore, but have found a son that is not (to use Doc Harris' term) a funnel butt. Time will tell if he breeds like what he is and performed like or if he breeds like his sire. His dam is an awesome cow that has a butt on her unlike any Angus cow I have seen. Not trying to promote, again just giving eveidence that while I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT like 1407 and what he has made, I could not stay away from what he does do well. I simply held out for what he does well in a more phenotypically appealing package. That all being said, I hope I helped Australian CAttleman make a decision or understand what 1407 is and does.
 

DOC HARRIS

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2005
Messages
3,256
Reaction score
1
Location
Ft. Collins, CO
capt- Well thought out post! Well said and well presented. These facts just tend to point out how convoluted the Science and Art of breeding Beef Cattle really is. As I have reiterated before, when one is dealing with billions of genes and their accompanying DNA and EPD characteristics and mixing them (breeding) with other genes and EPD's - NOTHING is absolutely set in concrete! All we can do is the BEST we can do and then try to do better. Cattle breeding is NOT an absolute science! Thank God for THAT!

DOC HARRIS
 

SEC

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2006
Messages
889
Reaction score
0
Location
Saskatchewan
That is a very good explanation of what 1407 does.

I have a question for you........Why would you want to keep a son from a bull who you have seen disappoint you on a regular basis. Those genes are in the background? There are lots of sires who have many bulls in their pedigree that are extremely inconsistent, many people will use these bulls as well. I might be all wet, I doubt I will ever understand why these cattle are considered to be part of a genetic makeup in a herd.

With 1407 it's no wonder his daughters look like milk cows, Sleep Easy would put white on and with his milk EPD and being one of the first identified sires for marbling. Shoshone in his background would only accent the white and dairy look.
 

mtnman

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 3, 2004
Messages
658
Reaction score
0
Shoshone? Dairy?

Larry got in trouble in the 70's with calving ease since his cows had too much muscle in them.

That doesn't sound like dairy to me.

mtnman
 

SEC

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2006
Messages
889
Reaction score
0
Location
Saskatchewan
Mtnman, i know the story with the Shoshone cattle and have visited with Larry and absolutely love visiting with him. He's got such a different angle on him it's neat.

He's not trying to be Kit Pharo or anybody special just a guy who believes in what he's doing.

The Schearbrook Shoshone bull is one bull that he wouldn't use in his herd. I can't remember which cow in his pedigree (one that wasn't raised by Larry) was suspected of being part holstein. This is supposed to be how the New Trend cattle get their angularity from.
 

capt

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Messages
145
Reaction score
0
Location
the 38th State
Thanks for the comment Doc, coming from you that means quite a bit. My reply to that post would be what I like to refer to as even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then. My way with words stumbles at times. That being said, I will try to clarify my selection for SEC, which is a very good and very fair question by the way.

I needed something to turn out for cleanup after AI. Now before I get it from all angles, let me explain. With a small herd of cows (less than 50), I needed something good enough from the cleanup bull to be marketable, meet my strict criteria, and have a chance to leave a female in the herd if I didn't get some of the top cows settled AI. The biggest reason for this 1407 son is his dam. She is a changer and when I say changer I mean she improves cattle genetically and phenotypically in one generation. Most of the issues I have with 1407 are phenotypical, that is too say I don't like the way they look ... AT ALL!!!!! That being said they are reasonably sound and are working in an awful lot of herds (registered and commercial) well enough to be PROFITABLE (longevity of daughters yet to be determined in my mind, but worth the risk at this time). This son that got turned out cleanup did all the things that 1407 does well. Low BW, solid growth to a year of age, scanned well REA and IMF, is not a goofy idiot to handle and sets his rear legs down very well, his front toes point in the same direction, he is deep bodied and has real rib shape (as opposed to most New Trend derived cattle being peaked topped and puss-gutted). His first calves are on the ground right now and look good, not great but good. Better phenotype than 1407. To me as ugly as 1407's consistently were, HE IS A BREEDING BULL!! To me a breeding bull does things consistent and consistently well. I cannot argue with the genetic contribution that 1407 has contributed, but I do have issues with the phenotypic contribution, so I found a son that hopefully would do the genetic things as well as 1407 and yet isn't horrible to look at or sell progeny from him. I believe in phenotype as much as genotype and I can't emphasize enough that EPD's are a valuable TOOL, but not the complete answer. I hope this makes sense to all who read it and would welcome any comments.

Thanks
 

Latest posts

Top