Along with "Black Hide Pays More"

[Black Coos]

I pre date CAB, and I can tell you for a fact BLACK Angus was doing well before it came along...

The use of Black Angus to make them Cont. into a good eatin, is where CAB is beautiful,CAB made a market for all the non-angus breeds and people who raise them. All they had to do is make them look like angus...and they did.

AGAIN, where would all these gaint Cont. breeds be with out the Black Angus. I will tell you THEY WOULD NOT...There place was duel purpose ox..

Look at the shorthorns , ( my fav. breed) they did not convert and there numbers show it...

 

[3waycross]

I pre date CAB, and I can tell you for a fact BLACK Angus was doing well before it came along...
So were a lot of other breeds but Van is right and you know it. BTW I believe you were also around here before CAB I just wonder what name you were going by.?
The use of Black Angus to make them Cont. into a good eatin, is where CAB is beautiful,CAB made a market for all the non-angus breeds and people who raise them. All they had to do is make them look like angus...and they did.

AGAIN, where would all these gaint Cont. breeds be with out the Black Angus.My cows might get sucked up a bit if they don't get a regular drink but I wouldn't call them gaint. I will tell you THEY WOULD NOT...There place was duel purpose ox.. I will have to check the history of the Gelbvieh breed to see how many duels they actually participated in. How unique they could fight a duel in the morning and then pull a wagon in the afternoon.

Look at the shorthorns , ( my fav. breed) they did not convert and there numbers show it...

If they are your favorite breed why aren't you raising Shorthorn coos instead of black coos.

 

[3waycross]

He's not in the Genex catalog this year

Bull barn has him @$30.00 a straw. I would use him on some of my red GV's but I have no idea where he would be on PAP. He's a real good lookin bull. I just wish they could get the EPD translation figured out better. His WW and YW numbers are ridiculous.

http://bullbarn.com/angredepd.asp?ID=247

 

[robert]

I'm not convinced the 'native' angus epd's are so out of whack, you have to remember (or know) that the native lines that are left were not selected for anything they were simply the only ones left. The genetics are essentially from 30 to 50 years ago, take any US bull from that era and look at their numbers.

 

[andybob]

I'm not convinced the 'native' angus epd's are so out of whack, you have to remember (or know) that the native lines that are left were not selected for anything they were simply the only ones left. The genetics are essentially from 30 to 50 years ago, take any US bull from that era and look at their numbers.

I would go as far as saying the remaining natives are not of the best, as top studs brought in American and Canadian genetics to follow the trend for bigger frames from about the mid sixties.
The herd here at Laverstoke are good easy keeping genetics, we leave them outdoors for winter, and they perform well enough for the demand for semen to be increasing for the breeders wanting to reduce frame size and get back to cattle able to thrive on grass.

 

[redcowsrule33]

He's not in the Genex catalog this year

Bull barn has him @$30.00 a straw. I would use him on some of my red GV's but I have no idea where he would be on PAP. He's a real good lookin bull. I just wish they could get the EPD translation figured out better. His WW and YW numbers are ridiculous.

http://bullbarn.com/angredepd.asp?ID=247

He might not be in the paper catalog but they still carry him. They don't list half the bulls they carry in the paper catalog but have them all online.

I tried him out on a commercial cow and wasn't unhappy. Came small and is similar to her last calf (from a different RA bull) in weaning weight, has good depth and muscle expression. If I had room in the freezer I'd feed him out just to see how he compares at butchering. He certainly isn't going to be huge though. I think his numbers are probably fairly accurate as they have dropped the more he was sampled (they started out far higher). A few of the black bulls from the same herd have fared better. It will be interesting to see how his females turn out.

 

[dun]

Does anyone have daughters of Packer in production? What do you think?

 

[3waycross]

I'm not convinced the 'native' angus epd's are so out of whack, you have to remember (or know) that the native lines that are left were not selected for anything they were simply the only ones left. The genetics are essentially from 30 to 50 years ago, take any US bull from that era and look at their numbers.

I won't dispute that. I just thought his growth numbers were so low as to be unbelievable.

 

[3waycross]

I'm not convinced the 'native' angus epd's are so out of whack, you have to remember (or know) that the native lines that are left were not selected for anything they were simply the only ones left. The genetics are essentially from 30 to 50 years ago, take any US bull from that era and look at their numbers.

I would go as far as saying the remaining natives are not of the best, as top studs brought in American and Canadian genetics to follow the trend for bigger frames from about the mid sixties.
The herd here at Laverstoke are good easy keeping genetics, we leave them outdoors for winter, and they perform well enough for the demand for semen to be increasing for the breeders wanting to reduce frame size and get back to cattle able to thrive on grass.

So how do you feel about bulls such as Cortachy Boy and Jipsey Earl. They make them sound like the second coming in the semen catalogues. I have some high milk and growth GV cows that I have considered using them on for balancer bulls. A couple of these girls are plenty framy they would benefir from a little reduction.

 

[Black Coos]

I do not raise shorthorns: THEY ARE NOT COOS, Only Black Angus are coos.... :lol:

1. They are rare in the mid-south
2. They are not cheap, at least from a commerical point of view.
3. They look to much like LH ( in color) when crossed , the sale barn here , they would surly get dock bad.

:bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs:
It always the same, CAB , CAB , CAB , great marketing, brilliant marketing , but they(cab) had a great product Black Angus.

CAB did not start the whole thing, THE BLACK ANGUS thing started at least 250 years ago by a Scotsman and his coos , CAB is just riding the wave....Cab could not have used any other breed but Black Angus to do what they did... All the marketing in the world can not make a turd anything but a turd.

Just think If Angus had been red, the world would be a different place...

 

[novatech]

I pre date CAB, and I can tell you for a fact BLACK Angus was doing well before it came along...

The use of Black Angus to make them Cont. into a good eatin, is where CAB is beautiful,CAB made a market for all the non-angus breeds and people who raise them. All they had to do is make them look like angus...and they did.

AGAIN, where would all these gaint Cont. breeds be with out the Black Angus. I will tell you THEY WOULD NOT...There place was duel purpose ox..

Look at the shorthorns , ( my fav. breed) they did not convert and there numbers show it...

What you have not said is that no matter what the breed or cross, if the carcass makes it into the CAB program Angus takes all the credit. That is what the name was designed to do.
You really should not criticise those other breeds that have bred black. Non cattle people assume they are Angus so their numbers look better. The same people think they are eating pure Angus just because of the name . Again, by design.
Like you I was around before Angus was popular. Heck I may have been around before Angus. Non the less I agree they became popular pretty fast. On of the reason was they did not have the eye problems incurred with Herefords. The truth is that most cow calf producers don't give a rats behind about the meat. They simply want low birth weight high weaning weight and as few problems as possible along the way. Angus somewhat brought that along. The second thing was they were a fad at the time. The advent of the CAB program is when they really took off combined with the extra money people had to invest in the hobby farms.
There are some awfully good Angus breeders out there that are improving the breed. Unfortunately there are far to many riding on their shirt tales. The ones that say Angus are this and Angus are that. They are the ones constantly quoting "Angus The Business Breed" and yet have no clue as to how the beef they raise would grade.

 

[Black Coos]

Good post NOVA

 

[robert]

So how do you feel about bulls such as Cortachy Boy and Jipsey Earl. They make them sound like the second coming in the semen catalogues. I have some high milk and growth GV cows that I have considered using them on for balancer bulls. A couple of these girls are plenty framy they would benefir from a little reduction.

you probably don't want my opinion but as it's free and worth what is paid for it here goes, the genex promotion of the Dunlouise bulls was disingenuous at best and fraudulent at worst, Geordie Souter, the breeder is a good and decent man, he conducted a program of preservation not performance and from what I've seen Jipsey Earl is the better breeding bull. The unfortunate thing is that very little genetics from the pre-Canadian imports existed, the bulls that could have been genuine improvers were never collected as AI has not been a part of many breeding programs til recent times, even old Ballot of Belladrum was never collected in the UK prior to his export to the States in the late 50's. The only semen on angus bulls would be those bought and collected by the milk marketing board stud as heifer fresheners in dairy herds, and these certainly weren't the top end bulls available. Personally if you want a frame reducer you would be better off with an Ohlde type bull where you won't give up the performance, udder quality/milking ability simply to drop a couple inches in height.

 

[VLS_GUY]

Robert,

A very unsentimental opinion on the current state of UK Angus genetics. I have herd the same thing from others in the beef business in the UK and Ireland. North American performance genetics have just about wiped out any reason to use a straight UK pedigree on an economic basis. To verify this go do a Google search on any of the Angus herd sires in heavy use in the UK. The same bulls dominate in the UK as elsewhere in the world.
The use of AI in the UK lagged other countries due to the breeders fearing AI killing their bull sales. This min the end signed their death warrant.
I would like your opinion on the popularity of bulls like Dalrene Cruz, Rawburn Transformer etc. and the rise of the double muscled Angus AI bulls now available.

 

[robert]

I would like your opinion on the popularity of bulls like Dalrene Cruz, Rawburn Transformer etc. and the rise of the double muscled Angus AI bulls now available.

well, seeing as how I'm giving out opinions for free here's another one or two

I never liked Cruz, saw him as a yearling when he was imported and my first thought was 'he looks like a limi, only black' same slope to his plates, hard look to him. It seems that the current dalliance with double muscling goes to him, not a surprise in my view and makes you wonder how accurate his pedigree is. However his influence in the UK is pervasive and any skeletons there will just have to be lived with, of course the EUROP grading system is the driver and by extension the destroyer of true Angus type in the UK.

First saw Transformer as a short yearling, we had a group of 4 great western sons out of a sister to Scotch Cap at the same time he was born, unfortunately none turned out as well as Transformer did. A deeply impressive bull, fine breed character about his head, very structurally correct, a fact borne out when I saw him again as an old bull at 9 or 10 years of age, still sound. Size wise he would be a frame 8 or 9 so too big for my purposes here in the US but a lot to like. He has undoubtedly been a huge influence on the breed there.

There would be few angus bulls in the US today that would have the 'necessary' type to be useful in the UK system so long as the push for extreme size and muscling is pursued. I believe that there are a number of bulls who could make a very worthwhile contribution to the UK genepool if they were prepared to take a step away from frame 9 and 10, bulls like Boyd New Day, Bismarck and Lead On could work well.

To my mind double muscling is a genetic defect, in the homozygous state it will kill reproduction, those cows that do get in calf will be unable to calve on their own, you could call it a lethal defect, yet in the heterozygous state it improve yield grade, and in UK terms results in a gradeable carcass from a holstein, which is ultimately where the majority of the beef comes from. Further though double muscling is NOT an Angus trait and as such should be eliminated.

 

[BA]

Good posts Robert - thanks for your insight!

 

[robert]

no problem, just my opinions, delivered free with my own bbuilt in bias