Ai Bulls for my new cows

[WinterSpringsFarm]

You guys who claim the hybrid vigor will cause such a higher birthweight that heifers will have difficulty calving I call BS.

When I first started in the business I had 4 commercial angus cattle, I bred them to a calving ease simmental bull
Those heifers calved with calves in the 70-90lb range without issue!

So 25% of your 4 angus heifers had 90 lb calves when bred to a Calving Ease Simmental bull and you find that acceptable.... even recommended?

A dairy farmer friend has been using a black Simmental bull on his Holstein heifers and was bragging what nice big
growthy calves he was getting. Much more growth than the Angus bull he had used 2 years ago.
How big?
100 lbs
You find that acceptable?
Sure, we're set up here to assist whenever needed and have been pulling 1/3 of them and haven't had any problems.
Then he showed me a nice black 105 lb bull calf they pulled from a heifer that morning... isn't he nice? Yep.

I stopped by at the end of the week and he had a long face. The heifer he had pulled the bull calf from had died.
He said, "I can't believe it. She was such a nice big heifer and it really wasn't all that hard of a pull."
(Not for him it wasn't) It takes a lot of growth to pay for 1 dead calf, let alone a dead heifer.

Everything works... until it doesn't.

Quite honestly, yes. If I have a heifer that can't calve a 70-85lb calf I don't want her. The 90lber came from a cow that has had 90lb calves and her ETs are 90s as well so genetically she has higher BW.

My point was more about you saying breeding angus to CE simmental bulls will create issues, that's not true. There are many of us who do it every year without issue. Angus on CE angus could create a train wreck just the same.

When we were milking cows all our first calf heifers got bred to a CE ease angus bull, natural service. Guess what 90% of the time we had no issue, sometimes we pulled them, and even had a few heifers get paralyzed and even die.

 

[Franke]

The red heifers you could use WS High Stakes
http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php? ... 43&lang=EN
For the cows WS Red Moon looks interesting. Or Hilb Royal Rumble both new bulls out of W/C Executive Order.
https://selectsiresbeef.com/index.php/b ... =Simmental
https://cattlevisions.com/detail.php?Bu ... bulltype=1
For the final answer cdi rimrock could be nice
http://genex.crinet.com/beef/index.php? ... e=1SM00137

 

[Son of Butch]

For an unproven bull (.22 accuracy) such as HILB Rumble $40 is out of line.

 

[Franke]

$40 for an unproven (.22 accuracy) HILB Rumble is out of line.

Been burnt on bulls that cost more that were proven, but I like the cow and like the sire and he looked nice enough when I saw him. I'm not saying breed 40-80 cows to him but if it isn't your main income and you feel adventurous why not on some bigger cows.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

For an unproven bull (.22 accuracy) such as HILB Rumble $40 is out of line.

Rumble does look good. Granted his accuracies are low - they have to be because he is young - but, he is out of a proven sire AND a proven donor dam. The dam has had 16 calves.
I would not be afraid to use him on heifers with those EPD's backed on both sides.

SOB - I think you are just looking for an excuse to be argumentative.
The Simmental breed calves easier than Hereford and within 1% of Angus - as a breed.
This OP has well grown out heifers (according to his estimate of weight). He should not have any problem using CE sires - even unproven as long as they have the backing behind the numbers.
IMHO - heifers should easily be able to have 75 - 90# calves. If not, you are not growing them out properly, or their pelvic area is waaayyyy too small and shouldn't be kept. I have had many calves over 100# out of heifers totally unassisted.
We have not helped one heifer in over 6 years - unless there was mal-presentation, but I can't even remember one of them. I have used +7 CE sires for heifers, without incident. These are not the muscle bound, big headed, hard calving 80's bulls.

 

[Son of Butch]

I have had many calves over 100# out of heifers totally unassisted.

A ringing endorsement for using Simmental bulls on heifers if I ever heard one.

 

[Son of Butch]

Yes, birth weight has nothing to do with ease of calving for heifers and everyone knows Simmental is the greatest
calving ease breed ever... ... especially for English breed heifers. (sarcasm intended)

MARC 2018 data is all lies and means nothing when they have Simmental 6th of 18 as best/worse for increasing bw.
1. Brahman
2. Charolais
3. Santa Gertrudis
4. Shorthorn
5. Tarentaise
6. Simmental
.........
15. Limousin
16. Hereford
17. Saler
18. Angus

I stand by my advice to the op, breed heifers to same breed CE bull and sell the calves (ya can't keep 'em all)
then next year and forever after breed them to any Simmental bull of your choice.

p.s.
I'd use Red Moon $25 at Select Sires 7 traits in top 10% and 12 of 16 in top 25%
before I'd spend $40 on Rumble. :2cents:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I have had many calves over 100# out of heifers totally unassisted.

A ringing endorsement for using Simmental bulls on heifers if I ever heard one.

Those 100# calves are out of +7 type CE bulls, not what I would recommend for the commercial man using AI. +12 is what is recommended for British type heifers. Generally, it is the DAM's fault (heifer), not necessarily the bulls. But, grow them out properly, and it is a NON issue.
I don't care what breed of a bull you use. There are easy or hard calving in ALL breeds. I push my heifers, calving them at 22 to 24 months of age and use sometimes less than heifer type bulls. Mine can handle them. I do not waste a year of production producing dinks.
You didn't see me recommending a bull with less than +12 CE. Don't twist my words.

 

[Son of Butch]

You've used him on your Angus heifers?

Yes, correct. I have used him on Simmental heifers.

LOL What is it today?
All 16 of his new angus are registered (except for the 10 red angus) and your Angus heifers are Simmental.

Did the software update change the site to the Used Car Salesmen Forum?


Twist the facts any way you want, but crossing breeds increases hybrid vigor which also increases birth weights.

I didn't twist any of your words.
:tiphat:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

SOB, you imply that there is a major difference between Simmental heifers and these Red Angus heifers.
Richmn has either purchased high quality heifers or is doing a great job raising his heifers. He has already said how much they weigh and I also stated that they were probably BIGGER than MY heifer if he was anywhere near close to their weights. There is very little difference BETWEEN breeds, anymore. Lots of difference of quality WITHIN breeds.
Richmn - you have a good idea breeding them to a quality Simmental bull and will be able to register them as 1/2 bloods. I have only been raising them for 48 years. I've been through all the hard calving, hard pulls, dopey calves back in the 70's and 80's. The Simmental breed has come a LONG way from those days. If you want to feel more secure about your calving results, have someone palpate them and do a pelvic measurement. Some heifers are plenty big on the outside, but have no space inside. (ALL BREEDS).
Edit: I have NEVER pelvic measured any of my heifers.

 

[Son of Butch]

It is difficult to compare epds across breeds... but roughly a Simmental ce 15 = Angus ce 7 (breed average)
and Red Angus ce 12 = Angus ce 7

And yes a well grown heifer should not have a problem calving to a breed average same breed bull.

You are correct in that Simmentals today are more like a Red Angus than a real Simmental of 40-50 years ago.
Unusual to get a Simmental breeder to admit there is very little difference between the two breeds today.
In fact the more like Red Angus/Angus, Simmental have become the better they've gotten. hmmm.....
Keep working at it and one day they might get there.
food for thought, eh?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

SOB - you have your opinion. That is wonderful. I have mine.
Funny - I know a lot of top notch Angus breeders that are taking their registered Angus cows and producing high dollar 1/2 blood Simmentals. The two breeds really compliment each other.
You bad mouth Simmental every chance you get, but that's just fine. Your opinion.

 

[Son of Butch]

MARC numbers are fact not opinion.
And I like Red Angus... so why wouldn't I like Simmental?
I praise Simmental as often as they deserve.
I love F1 females and Sim-Angus F1s make great commercial cows.

What I don't like is lulling anyone asking for ce advice on breeding heifers into a false sense of security.

Use a calving ease bull, that means ce 8 or higher for Angus, Red Angus 13 or higher and when crossbreeding using a
Simmental bull ce 15.4 or higher. I also advocate using a proven heifer safe bull when possible. Heifer calving time
is no time for surprises that too often comes with using Low Accuracy calving ease sires.

To say using a ce Angus bull (8) on Angus cattle will give you dinks, as you did, is a prime example of bad mouthing.

Is the Simmental Association so hard up for registrations that their new policy is to promote breeding all Heifers of
unknown parentage to Simmental bulls for calf registration?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

You did not say anything that I totally disagree with. Not sure why you are arguing. I never said breeding to an Angus bull of ANY CE # was going to give you a dink. I said, I like to push my heifers and not waste a year getting dinks. You can get a DINK from any breed.
I did quote MARC research when I said, Simmental calve easier than Herefords and within 1% of Angus. I don't have that report at my finger tips, but there have been numerous university articles and ads about it (ASA ads of course!!).
The OP asked for Simmental bulls to use on heifers. I wish he would chime in and give his opinions. If you look back, I quickly told him to let me know what stud he planned on ordering from and I would try to help him out.
You say you don't twist words, but "I like Red Angus so why wouldn't I like Simmental" = really. Like I said, you like to twist words. I would never say RA & Simmental are the same. I made the comment that there is very little difference between ALL breeds (and I was referring to frame score & weights of mainstream breeds not Texas Longhorn or other now novelty breeds).

 

[Franke]

Tell me if I'm wrong Jeanne but didn't the Red Angus and Simmental a-line epds not that long ago or do I remember that wrong.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Tell me if I'm wrong Jeanne but didn't the Red Angus and Simmental a-line epds not that long ago or do I remember that wrong.

You are correct. I believe all RA EPD's are calculated thru ASA. I'm having way too much fun with family to get arguing.
Family got a 4 point, 6 point & 10 point so far. Here until Monday.

 

[Franke]

Tell me if I'm wrong Jeanne but didn't the Red Angus and Simmental a-line epds not that long ago or do I remember that wrong.

You are correct. I believe all RA EPD's are calculated thru ASA. I'm having way too much fun with family to get arguing.
Family got a 4 point, 6 point & 10 point so far. Here until Monday.

That's good to hear. I didn't want to start an argument just trying to remember what I read once.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

The RA and I believe the Limo breed associations have been working together. RA for sure.
https://www.drovers.com/article/simment ... ommon-base
"Nov 1, 2012 - Simmental and Red Angus have been working together utilizing a multi-breed evaluation for the computation of EPDs on purebreds and ..."

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

International Genetic Solutions
www.internationalgeneticsolutions.com/i ... -solutions
"Apr 10, 2016 - These breed associations include: Red Angus, American Chianina, American Shorthorn ... American Simmental, American Gelbvieh, Canadian Angus, .... industry is much better served by breed associations working together."
AAA will NOT work with any of the breeds.

 

[76 Bar]

AAA will NOT work with any of the breeds.

Not surprising from the only Angus Assn in the world who arbitrarily deems a naturally occurring and decidedly harmless red coloration trait in the breed as a defect. :roll: