Why would anyone be against banding?

[Double R Ranch]

Alan,
I am glad that you brought this topic up. We have just lost a long time friend and fellow cattleman due to the banding issue.
In the past we have asked him to come help us castrate our calves. Each year, for one reason or another (his reasons not ours), he has not made it out to help us castrate with a knife. (his way)
We do not feel comfortable doing it without knowing what we are doing. That is the reason we need him to come help. Then for future years we would know what we were doing.
Long story short, we have lost money by selling bull calves the last few years and this year we had enough.
Now the calves are 5 months old and still bulls. So I got fed up and banded the calves.
Now since we met we have not banded due to the fact that he thinks that it is the cruelest thing that you can do. He is 100% against banding!!!
He says that it is like kicking a puppy. He says that the calves suffer so terribly! None of our calves have suffered or had any problems.
When he finally found out that we banded he flew off the handle. He said that he can never speek to us again because we are so cruel.
So, there are many opinions on this issue. We say do what ever seems right to you at what ever age (the calves). This friends mato however is "Whatever happens on your own ranch is your own business" guess this only means when it suits him ;-)

 

[Ryder]

Alan,
I am glad that you brought this topic up. We have just lost a long time friend and fellow cattleman due to the banding issue.
In the past we have asked him to come help us castrate our calves. Each year, for one reason or another (his reasons not ours), he has not made it out to help us castrate with a knife. (his way)
We do not feel comfortable doing it without knowing what we are doing. That is the reason we need him to come help. Then for future years we would know what we were doing.
Long story short, we have lost money by selling bull calves the last few years and this year we had enough.
Now the calves are 5 months old and still bulls. So I got fed up and banded the calves.
Now since we met we have not banded due to the fact that he thinks that it is the cruelest thing that you can do. He is 100% against banding!!!
He says that it is like kicking a puppy. He says that the calves suffer so terribly! None of our calves have suffered or had any problems.
When he finally found out that we banded he flew off the handle. He said that he can never speek to us again because we are so cruel.
So, there are many opinions on this issue. We say do what ever seems right to you at what ever age. This friends mato however is "Whatever happens on your own ranch is your own business" guess this only means when it suits him ;-)

I am not telling you to cut, band, or leave bulls. But if cutting them yourself is a problem to you, then get a book or do a search on internet for an explanation of how to castrate. Then just do it. It is really no big deal.
Cut one or two and watch them for three or four days to convince yourself that they are ok and give yourself confidence. It is not brain surgery.

 

[preston39]

We band very early. From newborn to a week old. We did get one to high once and it got infected. As long as you have both peas and release the band just above them, you will be fine. Sometimes do have trouble finding both but if you release the pressure a little on the leg you are holding up, you can find them pretty easy. Sometimes they suck them up into the body cavity but if you just hold them down and wait without touching them there, they will release them again. Theory is, they gain better if you wait til older to band/castrate but the studies I have seen did not show a big enough difference for us to change what we do.

We band them when we work them in the spring. Anywhere from a couple of days to a month old. Only use a knife on those that won't fit in the bander. We had a bunch of fat scrotums last year from one bull. Our concern with cutting is the flys. We used to slap a handfull of pinetar on them and never had much of a problem. But we've never had a problem banding. All you really have to remember is count to two and if you don;t count two, cut the band and try again.

dun

..."count to two"...? Help with that one...are you referring to..."clamping" procedure?

 

[dun]

..."count to two"...? Help with that one...are you referring to..."clamping" procedure?

Nuts in the bag!

dun

 

[Alan]

Cut one or two and watch them for three or four days to convince yourself that they are ok and give yourself confidence. It is not brain surgery.

It's tough for some less experienced people including us. We have castrated in recent years. Last years calves we sold at the sale barn as bulls, got docked about 5 cents/lbs I figure. We have a one year old bull, for butcher, we just haven't got around to cutting, but need to so he can be turned out on the big pastures with the cows. It's not on the brain but it is surgery and things can go wrong and you can have problems.

Alan

 

[dun]

Cut one or two and watch them for three or four days to convince yourself that they are ok and give yourself confidence. It is not brain surgery.

Or if push comes to shove, have a vet come out and cut some. You can learn from that and the cost of the vet call may well be less then you'ld loose that year in selling bulls at the sale barn. If it isn;t made up in one year, it sure should be in the second.

dun

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Alan, I can fully understand your point. It IS a simple proceedure, but I don't care how many times someone explained it to me - I would want to SEE it & DO it with someone experienced.

 

[preston39]

How would you like a thick rubber band around your testicles for a few days. In fact I think anyone that would do that to a calf should do it to themselves

treytex..thats cute!

Are you putting us on? Pushing buttons? May I ask what you do for a living? I am a Rancher,et al.

I am going to assume you are serious to wit;

The feed lot buyers discount 5-10% for natural bull 4-600 pounders. (100 bull calvesx500#=50,000#x....10c=5,000 dollars...Thats a lot of money.
Then they cut them. What would you suggest the producer do to avoid the loss?
Or are you suggesting... surgical castration/cutting... is the preferred way? If so I can't argue with you. In fact the feeder lots want animals..surgically castrated... rather than banding and are begining to discount for animals that have been banded rather than surgically castrated...here in the eastern mid-west..at least.

 

[mgman]

How would you like a thick rubber band around your testicles for a few days. In fact I think anyone that would do that to a calf should do it to themselves

I guess if I were given the choice between a rubber band around my testicles versus someone slicing me open and pulling them out, I'd opt for the rubber band!!!

 

[sidney411]

How can a buyer tell the difference in a cut calf opposed to a banded calf in the ring to discount them?

 

[preston39]

How can a buyer tell the difference in a cut calf opposed to a banded calf in the ring to discount them?

Sidney,

Surely you jest!!

The banded scrotum atrophies and is significantly reduced in size to a state of almost non-existent...the surgically castrated scrotum continues to exists...alibeit in a modified state. The difference can be determined ...easily. All of which must be considered depending on age of each procedure.

Feel free to call feed lots near you and check it out. If what my understanding is/ should not be correct please inform me/us.

Many cut the bottom...oh 1/4 to 1/3 of the scrotum off when surgicaly castrating...which reduces the residual scrotum size.( I don't..I do a vertical incision approximately 1/3" of the vertical stretched scrotum/testical length down to the bottom and 1/2" further of the scrotum..for drainage..everyone has their own approach) The incision size is determined by the animals' testicle size. It should be no longer than is necessary to retrieve the fellows.

As I understand and have read..."BLOGS"...about it...the amount of fat in the animal is revealed better with surgical castration than banding. Thus, the interest by the feed lots.

Further, (don't anyone laugh now!)I always try to perform surgical castration with .....the sign below the knee and going down. They hardly bleed and heal fast. (I use to laugh at that until it was proven to me on three seperate occasions. After several applications...I attest to it).

 

[memanpa]

come on guys & gals
i love it when ya'all bring those 250 - 350# bulls to market!!!
i save at least .05 to .08 a pound!!
take em home and put them under the knife OPPS now they are steers, couple of days thay are are back on feed!!!! if even that long!!!!!!
could take em back to the market in 2 weeks and make a buck and a half!!!!!
forget the banding forget the knife just let me make a buck
just kidding guys & gals never did like banding!!! quicker recovery by using the old tried and true method!
had an uncle who rubber banded his dogs! watched em scoot along trying to ease the ITCH????? or whatever!!
besides iffin i can get 4 or 5 at the same time makes for some fine eating
of course i have to eat them myself! darling bride won't touch them!! even better leaves more for me
so sell em as young bulls to guys like me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ryder]

How can a buyer tell the difference in a cut calf opposed to a banded calf in the ring to discount them?

Sidney,

Surely you jest!!

The banded scrotum atrophies and is significantly reduced in size to a state of almost non-existent...the surgically castrated scrotum continues to exists...alibeit in a modified state. The difference can be determined ...easily. All of which must be considered depending on age of each procedure.

Feel free to call feed lots near you and check it out. If what my understanding is/ should not be correct please inform me/us.

Many cut the bottom...oh 1/4 to 1/3 of the scrotum off when surgicaly castrating...which reduces the residual scrotum size.( I don't..I do a vertical incision approximately 1/3" of the vertical stretched scrotum/testical length down to the bottom and 1/2" further of the scrotum..for drainage..everyone has their own approach) The incision size is determined by the animals' testicle size. It should be no longer than is necessary to retrieve the fellows.

the animal is revealed better with surgical castration than banding. Thus, the interest by the feed lots.

Further, (don't anyone laugh now!)I always try to perform surgical castration with .....the sign below the knee and going down. They hardly bleed and heal fast. (I use to laugh at that until it was proven to me on three seperate occasions. After several applications...I attest to it).

Sidney's question was legitimate. Sometimes these things are hard to see, especially if you don't know what to look for.

I cut pretty much like you do, or like I think you said you do it. Always seemed a lot neater to me.

I know an Indian woman who keeps me straight about signs. I will have to consult with her. I had always heard you do it when your knife is sharp.

 

[sidney411]

Thanks Ryder! And for you Preston: Please don't get me wrong, I mean no hard feelings.

I would like to invite you to my farm and see if you could tell which calf was banded and which ones were cut. I guarantee you will not be able to tell the difference looking at them in the pasture once they are healed. When I cut my calves, I cut the whole sack off, ain't none of this little insision stuff. Everyone I have seem do it does it the same way, that is how I learned. I try to do it in the morning before they get hot, but sometimes it's in the middle of the day. I have never had a problem with bleeding, never lost one, never had one even get sick. I have only banded one bull and I couldn't tell the difference in him and the others I had cut, so I decided to just keep cutting, it seems a lot easier to me to just get it done.

There are no feed lots near me that I know of so I can't check them out.

What are you talking about the animal being "revealed" with surgical castration? Do you mean the hole it leaves? I cut very young, so the hole is not that big and I spray it with wound dressing, and as I have said, I have never had a problem (Knock on wood). I have seen the vet surgical casterate calves, and they didn't even spray them with dressing or put anything on the wound.

What I would like to know is if there is a way to tell my calves from ones that are banded in the ring?

 

[arrowhunter]

Guess I'll put my .02 in. We started banding about 7 yrs ago. We do it young, at least 24 hrs old. Haven't had a single problem with it. It's just so much quicker and easier than cutting. We may or may not lose a few pounds at sale time but it's worth it to us. The biggest draw back is not haveing the annual Rocky Mtn oyster feeds. I miss those for sure!

 

[preston39]

How can a buyer tell the difference in a cut calf opposed to a banded calf in the ring to discount them?

Sidney,

Surely you jest!!

The banded scrotum atrophies and is significantly reduced in size to a state of almost non-existent...the surgically castrated scrotum continues to exists...alibeit in a modified state. The difference can be determined ...easily. All of which must be considered depending on age of each procedure.

Feel free to call feed lots near you and check it out. If what my understanding is/ should not be correct please inform me/us.

Many cut the bottom...oh 1/4 to 1/3 of the scrotum off when surgicaly castrating...which reduces the residual scrotum size.( I don't..I do a vertical incision approximately 1/3" of the vertical stretched scrotum/testical length down to the bottom and 1/2" further of the scrotum..for drainage..everyone has their own approach) The incision size is determined by the animals' testicle size. It should be no longer than is necessary to retrieve the fellows.

the animal is revealed better with surgical castration than banding. Thus, the interest by the feed lots.

Further, (don't anyone laugh now!)I always try to perform surgical castration with .....the sign below the knee and going down. They hardly bleed and heal fast. (I use to laugh at that until it was proven to me on three seperate occasions. After several applications...I attest to it).

Sidney's question was legitimate. Sometimes these things are hard to see, especially if you don't know what to look for.

I cut pretty much like you do, or like I think you said you do it. Always seemed a lot neater to me.

I know an Indian woman who keeps me straight about signs. I will have to consult with her. I had always heard you do it when your knife is sharp.

==============
Ryder,

Touche!!!

Guess I went right past the basics. I wonder why! Hummmm.

 

[preston39]

Thanks Ryder! And for you Preston: Please don't get me wrong, I mean no hard feelings.

I would like to invite you to my farm and see if you could tell which calf was banded and which ones were cut. I guarantee you will not be able to tell the difference looking at them in the pasture once they are healed. When I cut my calves, I cut the whole sack off, ain't none of this little insision stuff. Everyone I have seem do it does it the same way, that is how I learned. I try to do it in the morning before they get hot, but sometimes it's in the middle of the day. I have never had a problem with bleeding, never lost one, never had one even get sick. I have only banded one bull and I couldn't tell the difference in him and the others I had cut, so I decided to just keep cutting, it seems a lot easier to me to just get it done.

There are no feed lots near me that I know of so I can't check them out.

What are you talking about the animal being "revealed" with surgical castration? Do you mean the hole it leaves? I cut very young, so the hole is not that big and I spray it with wound dressing, and as I have said, I have never had a problem (Knock on wood). I have seen the vet surgical casterate calves, and they didn't even spray them with dressing or put anything on the wound.

What I would like to know is if there is a way to tell my calves from ones that are banded in the ring?

===========
Sidney,

Didn't expect hard feelings. Thanks though. If we can't post honest experienced feelings(right or wrong) then I am on the wrong board.


I think we have apples and oranges mixed here.

If you cut the bag off...comparative to banding there will be little difference IMHO.

In the previous post I did a comparative to surgical removal of the testicles(not scrotum!!!) to banding.( Please re-read it for clarity).
Perhaps I was not clear.

I have no problem distinguishing between a banded animal and a castrated animal at 5-600# state at a deacent close range..ie..the corral or sale ring or similar distance in the field. That would include your field.

 

[preston39]

Thanks Ryder! And for you Preston: Please don't get me wrong, I mean no hard feelings.

I would like to invite you to my farm and see if you could tell which calf was banded and which ones were cut. I guarantee you will not be able to tell the difference looking at them in the pasture once they are healed. When I cut my calves, I cut the whole sack off, ain't none of this little insision stuff. Everyone I have seem do it does it the same way, that is how I learned. I try to do it in the morning before they get hot, but sometimes it's in the middle of the day. I have never had a problem with bleeding, never lost one, never had one even get sick. I have only banded one bull and I couldn't tell the difference in him and the others I had cut, so I decided to just keep cutting, it seems a lot easier to me to just get it done.

There are no feed lots near me that I know of so I can't check them out.

What are you talking about the animal being "revealed" with surgical castration? Do you mean the hole it leaves? I cut very young, so the hole is not that big and I spray it with wound dressing, and as I have said, I have never had a problem (Knock on wood). I have seen the vet surgical casterate calves, and they didn't even spray them with dressing or put anything on the wound.

What I would like to know is if there is a way to tell my calves from ones that are banded in the ring?

-===========
Sidney,

Sorry for duplicate but, I missed a further question you had... Revealed..is to say .....the appearance of the residual scrotum.