Why Angus?

Help Support CattleToday:

Status
Not open for further replies.
Frankie said:

But I'll repeat that research indicates highly heritable traits (carcass and ADG) are not influenced much by heterosis (crossbreeding).

novatech said:

Never herd that. It sounded fishy so I googled it up. I was going to cut and paste a few hundred sites that disagree but you do it yourself.
No doubt you can find one that the Angus association put out, but I don't know if even they would go that far. To my knowledge they are big advocates of cross breeding, and for very good reason. Heterosis is what makes my Brahman cross cattle palatable and gives significant gains in the fed lot over and above either individual. That heterosis is retained to the third terminal cross. F1 brafords crossed onto an Angus bull is hard to beat.
It is not only how much they put on but more the cost of doing it.

Yes, I can Google. And guess what I found?

As a general rule, traits that are low in heritability estimate receive the most "kick" from heterosis. Reproductive traits like fertility and cow longevity benefit the most from breed complimentarity, generally a 20-30% in-crease over purebred breeding programs. Traits that are highly heritable, like carcass traits (ranging from 45-65% heritable), receive fewer advantages from crossbreeding systems, approximately 0 to 5%.

http://www.southernlivestock.com/articl ... s.6125.sls

Heterosis is realized in inverse proportion to heritability for a given trait. Lowly heritable traits offer the most heterosis and highly heritable traits the least. In general, reproductive traits are lowly heritable, growth traits are moderate and carcass traits are highly heritable.

http://www.cattlenetwork.com/Cattle-Bre ... oid=551661

Significant and rapid progress can be made through selection for carcass traits, while crossbreeding has little or no effect.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AN165


In this study, individual heterosis effects were not significant for any of the feedlot performance traits….
http://www.animal-science.org/cgi/reprint/64/5/1332

Old stuff (1981)
Contrary to previous reports, HAx did not gain significantly faster than H and A straightbreds during the postweaning period (the HAx advantage was only 2.0% for postweaning average daily gain). HAx required more (P<.05) megacalories ME/kilogram gain than H and A straightbreds over time- and weight-constant intervals.
[/quote]

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/53/2/332

Note that not a one of these sources are from the Angus Assn. So let's see your references; I'm anxious to see a few of the hundreds that disagree with these.
 
Frankie":klka5wuf said:
Frankie said:

But I'll repeat that research indicates highly heritable traits (carcass and ADG) are not influenced much by heterosis (crossbreeding).

novatech said:

Never herd that. It sounded fishy so I googled it up. I was going to cut and paste a few hundred sites that disagree but you do it yourself.
No doubt you can find one that the Angus association put out, but I don't know if even they would go that far. To my knowledge they are big advocates of cross breeding, and for very good reason. Heterosis is what makes my Brahman cross cattle palatable and gives significant gains in the fed lot over and above either individual. That heterosis is retained to the third terminal cross. F1 brafords crossed onto an Angus bull is hard to beat.
It is not only how much they put on but more the cost of doing it.

Yes, I can Google. And guess what I found?

As a general rule, traits that are low in heritability estimate receive the most "kick" from heterosis. Reproductive traits like fertility and cow longevity benefit the most from breed complimentarity, generally a 20-30% in-crease over purebred breeding programs. Traits that are highly heritable, like carcass traits (ranging from 45-65% heritable), receive fewer advantages from crossbreeding systems, approximately 0 to 5%.

http://www.southernlivestock.com/articl ... s.6125.sls

Heterosis is realized in inverse proportion to heritability for a given trait. Lowly heritable traits offer the most heterosis and highly heritable traits the least. In general, reproductive traits are lowly heritable, growth traits are moderate and carcass traits are highly heritable.

http://www.cattlenetwork.com/Cattle-Bre ... oid=551661

Significant and rapid progress can be made through selection for carcass traits, while crossbreeding has little or no effect.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AN165


In this study, individual heterosis effects were not significant for any of the feedlot performance traits….
http://www.animal-science.org/cgi/reprint/64/5/1332

Old stuff (1981)
Contrary to previous reports, HAx did not gain significantly faster than H and A straightbreds during the postweaning period (the HAx advantage was only 2.0% for postweaning average daily gain). HAx required more (P<.05) megacalories ME/kilogram gain than H and A straightbreds over time- and weight-constant intervals.

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/53/2/332

Note that not a one of these sources are from the Angus Assn. So let's see your references; I'm anxious to see a few of the hundreds that disagree with these.[/quote]

You have certainly proven one point: We can't believe everything we read.
 
Well you win.Most angus are such a genetic mess,I bet you do get alot of hybrid vigor from your cattle.
 
From this it can be established that heterosis does much more for growth traits than for carcass traits; And that angus cattle albeit as marbled as the herefords, are not as feed efficient.

Please continue comparing the colour of one horse to the speed of the other horse.
 
doggone communism.......using data from some other country beside the good..... ol USA.......... :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: Next thing u know.....he will be saying that the data from our state ag colleges......has been bought and paid for by the different breed associations.................pur ol communism :D :D :D
 
Instersting, but only because the third ones specifies that it was done with steers that were around 18 months when they went on feed. That makes me assume the second is also. Most cattle in the US are buthered long they're the age of these cattle going on feed. The first one is from the Hereford Assoc., just as suspect as if the Angus, Shorthorn or whatever association came to the same conclusion about tehy're breed
 
I guess because I am old I tend to quote "old" sayings.

It is said that "anything can be proven by statistics". I suppose that is because "figures don't lie, but liars figure!"

In my opinion, EVERONE who has posted something on this thread has been correct a least part of the time, and has been absolutely incorrect part of the time. It depends ENTiRELY on the interpretation of the words one hears, and whether one is thinking "Single Word" (trait) selection, or "Multiple Word" (trait) selection, or Interpretation.

You think that the raising of Beef Cattle is NOT a difficult business? THINK AGAIN!

Frankie is correct with most of her statements on this partricular post, and those of you who question her statements have very probably either NOT understood what she has said, OR have not read AND understood her quotes from the various links to which she referred. This is deep stuff, and should be read two or three times to get the full meaning of it all. How many of you CattleToday readers have read ALL of her links two or three times?? If you have done so, and understand it all clearly, you realize that this subject material is COMPOUND - which simply means it can be interrpreted in almost any way one wishes to direct his meanings.

Words mean things - and there are multiple factors which can be stressed on this thread! My advice is - don't be closed minded and be a single trait selector.

DOC HARRIS
 
DOC HARRIS":28ghg2ko said:
I guess because I am old I tend to quote "old" sayings.

It is said that "anything can be proven by statistics". I suppose that is because "figures don't lie, but liars figure!"

In my opinion, EVERONE who has posted something on this thread has been correct a least part of the time, and has been absolutely incorrect part of the time. It depends ENTiRELY on the interpretation of the words one hears, and whether one is thinking "Single Word" (trait) selection, or "Multiple Word" (trait) selection, or Interpretation.

You think that the raising of Beef Cattle is NOT a difficult business? THINK AGAIN!

Frankie is correct with most of her statements on this partricular post, and those of you who question her statements have very probably either NOT understood what she has said, OR have not read AND understood her quotes from the various links to which she referred. This is deep stuff, and should be read two or three times to get the full meaning of it all. How many of you CattleToday readers have read ALL of her links two or three times?? If you have done so, and understand it all clearly, you realize that this subject material is COMPOUND - which simply means it can be interrpreted in almost any way one wishes to direct his meanings.

Words mean things - and there are multiple factors which can be stressed on this thread! My advice is - don't be closed minded and be a single trait selector.

DOC HARRIS


Yep our land grant colleges giving u the best stats money can buy!!!!!!
 
ANAZAZI":1b1jljzc said:
From this it can be established that heterosis does much more for growth traits than for carcass traits; And that angus cattle albeit as marbled as the herefords, are not as feed efficient.

Please continue comparing the colour of one horse to the speed of the other horse.


I didn't realize I was ever part of the heterosis conversation. I was chipping in my two bits for "why angus". Why are we talking about horses? :)
 
DOC HARRIS":2hfh5594 said:
I guess because I am old I tend to quote "old" sayings.

It is said that "anything can be proven by statistics". I suppose that is because "figures don't lie, but liars figure!"

In my opinion, EVERONE who has posted something on this thread has been correct a least part of the time, and has been absolutely incorrect part of the time. It depends ENTiRELY on the interpretation of the words one hears, and whether one is thinking "Single Word" (trait) selection, or "Multiple Word" (trait) selection, or Interpretation.

You think that the raising of Beef Cattle is NOT a difficult business? THINK AGAIN!

Frankie is correct with most of her statements on this partricular post, and those of you who question her statements have very probably either NOT understood what she has said, OR have not read AND understood her quotes from the various links to which she referred. This is deep stuff, and should be read two or three times to get the full meaning of it all. How many of you CattleToday readers have read ALL of her links two or three times?? If you have done so, and understand it all clearly, you realize that this subject material is COMPOUND - which simply means it can be interrpreted in almost any way one wishes to direct his meanings.

Words mean things - and there are multiple factors which can be stressed on this thread! My advice is - don't be closed minded and be a single trait selector.

DOC HARRIS
Well Said !!! :tiphat:
 
More from your bought and paid for land grant colleges. :)

Polled Calves Can Produce a Profit

Dehorning calves can have a tremendous impact on end-product quality and value of feeder/stocker cattle.

It may seem like one of the simpler management processes, but it still gets overlooked. Angus cattle, for instance, are naturally polled—and breeding cattle to Angus bulls is an easy way to remove horns naturally without the stress of using mechanical means.

According to the most recent National Animal Health Monitoring System (NAHMS) report, the percentage of calves marketed with horns, across all states evaluated, had decreased from 8.4% in 1992 to 6.3% in 2007.

The authors speculated that a majority of this decrease was due to the use of polled genetics. However, another import finding was that fewer calves born with horns were dehorned on the operation.

The 2007-08 NAHMS report also evaluated dehorning practices by geographical region.

It found that the South Central region (Texas and Oklahoma) had the highest percentage of calves born in 2007 that had or were expected to have horns (22.8%). The East region (Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee and Virginia) had only 9.8% calves with horns but only dehorned 39.5% of those calves.

The West and Central regions dehorned a much higher percentage of calves born with horns (70% combined).

The presence of horns has a consistently negative effect on the selling price of feeder calves.

Reports from eastern Oklahoma, evaluating the sale price of more than 9,000 head, have shown that horned steers bring $3.23/cwt less than their polled or dehorned contemporaries.

Reports from the Southeastern states estimate that polled or dehorned calves sell for $1.50 to $2.00/cwt more than horned calves.

Horned feeders sell for less because they require dehorning when they arrive to the feedlot and that negatively impacts their performance and health. If they are not dehorned, they decrease the value of the entire pen they feed with.

The 2005 National Beef Quality Audit reported that 22.3% of the cattle passing through 16 packing plants had horns. This represented a reduction from previous reports dating back to 1991 but still does not meet the industry goal of reducing horns on fed cattle to less than 5%.

One of these previous reports estimated the loss due to horns on fed cattle to be $1.00 for every finished animal marketed. The reduction in value comes from the increased incidence of bruising, especially on high-priced cuts, that has to be trimmed from the carcass.

Dehorning replacement females and bulls is also very important.

Horned cows can cause damage to other cattle during transportation and are often difficult to work in a handling facility. Non-fed market animals (cull cows and bulls) also experience a significant amount of carcass trim from bruising when they are managed or hauled with horned cattle.

Source: Justin Rhinehart, Beef Cattle Specialist; Mississippi State University Extension Service

http://www.angus.org/Pub/Newsroom/Relea ... Profit.htm
 
KMacGinley":nu4snbeg said:
Because angus are the only polled cattle out there? :)

Are you sure you want to go there? If so, we can discuss all those other "polled breeds" that became polled when they turned black......
 
Frankie":1nxnbk0m said:
KMacGinley":1nxnbk0m said:
Because angus are the only polled cattle out there? :)

Are you sure you want to go there? If so, we can discuss all those other "polled breeds" that became polled when they turned black......

Like polled Herefords, Red Polls,Polled Shorthorns(RED),Fleckvieh??????????????????????????????????
 
3waycross":27p5o5ss said:
Frankie":27p5o5ss said:
KMacGinley":27p5o5ss said:
Because angus are the only polled cattle out there? :)

Are you sure you want to go there? If so, we can discuss all those other "polled breeds" that became polled when they turned black......

Like polled Herefords, Red Polls,Polled Shorthorns(RED),Fleckvieh??????????????????????????????????

Red Polls are still polled and RED :banana: :banana: :banana:
 
Frankie":3sxgldtu said:
KMacGinley":3sxgldtu said:
Because angus are the only polled cattle out there? :)

Are you sure you want to go there? If so, we can discuss all those other "polled breeds" that became polled when they turned black......

Show me ONE black Tuli, Angus could not survive in the harsh environment I grew up ranching in;
http://www.tuli.co.za/
http://studbook.co.za/Society/tuli/gallery.php
My grandfather bred Aberdeen Angus for over sixty years, selling the finished steers as high quality "Scotch Beef"
he wouldn't have dreamed of breeding any other cattle though there was a herd of hardy Galloways on his mountain farm, but he saw the advantage of using cattle adapted to their environment rather than adjusting the environment to suit the breed. He was also a great believer in crossbreeding to achieve the marketable end product from the adapted breeds. I am managing one of the last herds of heritage Angus and Hereford, and recognise their many qualities, but there is no "one breed fits all situations" !
 
andybob":1wlz57ki said:
Frankie":1wlz57ki said:
KMacGinley":1wlz57ki said:
Because angus are the only polled cattle out there? :)

Are you sure you want to go there? If so, we can discuss all those other "polled breeds" that became polled when they turned black......

Show me ONE black Tuli, Angus could not survive in the harsh environment I grew up ranching in;
http://www.tuli.co.za/
http://studbook.co.za/Society/tuli/gallery.php
My grandfather bred Aberdeen Angus for over sixty years, selling the finished steers as high quality "Scotch Beef"
he wouldn't have dreamed of breeding any other cattle though there was a herd of hardy Galloways on his mountain farm, but he saw the advantage of using cattle adapted to their environment rather than adjusting the environment to suit the breed. He was also a great believer in crossbreeding to achieve the marketable end product from the adapted breeds. I am managing one of the last herds of heritage Angus and Hereford, and recognise their many qualities, but there is no "one breed fits all situations" !

Your location is your location. I'd disagree with you. With the deep gene pool in the US Angus breed, I think you can find whatever you need to raise quality beef in the US.
 
Jovid":1tdbzibv said:
Red Polls are still polled and RED :banana: :banana: :banana:

OK. Red Polls are red and polled. I didn't say otherwise. I said, do you want to talk about the breeds that used Angus genetics to get polled?
 
3waycross":uslgqrcz said:
Frankie":uslgqrcz said:
KMacGinley":uslgqrcz said:
Because angus are the only polled cattle out there? :)

Are you sure you want to go there? If so, we can discuss all those other "polled breeds" that became polled when they turned black......

Like polled Herefords, Red Polls,Polled Shorthorns(RED),Fleckvieh??????????????????????????????????

Simmental got black and polled. Limousin got black and polled. Maines are black and polled. Or sometimes they used Red Angus. Murray Grey's are half Angus and polled.

The Hereford breed is not a polled breed. There used to be a Polled Hereford Assn, but no more. One of my neighbors used to have a nice red Shorthorn herd. Today the cows run with a black Limmi bull. Some calves have horns, some don't. Why do you think they're named "shorthorn?" Fleckvieh is a Simmental.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Top