Why Angus?

[jscunn]

No more polled herefords?? Someone needs to tell me this. Now I have to go buy a dehorning tool, expecting horns to sprout in
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[Frankie]

No more polled herefords?? Someone needs to tell me this. Now I have to go buy a dehorning tool, expecting horns to sprout in
3...
2...
1...

Noone said "no more polled herefords". There's no longer a polled hereford assn. You can breed with a HH and register as a Hereford, but is it a polled hereford?

 

[andybob]

Your location is your location. I'd disagree with you. With the deep gene pool in the US Angus breed, I think you can find whatever you need to raise quality beef in the US.

The Angus on the Farm I managed for Smithfields in NC, were certainly heat stressed in summer, the deligation that came from the University of NC (Duke), were amazed at my Tuli cattle grazing in the heat of the day. The use of the Tuli as a base breed in heat and parasitic challanged regions, which can then be crossed to produce the desired marketable type, makes more sense than putting a breed adapted to the Scottish highlands (albeit with some added genetics over the years), into an environment totally opposite to that in which it evolved.

 

[alacattleman]

Your location is your location. I'd disagree with you. With the deep gene pool in the US Angus breed, I think you can find whatever you need to raise quality beef in the US.

The Angus on the Farm I managed for Smithfields in NC, were certainly heat stressed in summer, the deligation that came from the University of NC (Duke), were amazed at my Tuli cattle grazing in the heat of the day. The use of the Tuli as a base breed in heat and parasitic challanged regions, which can then be crossed to produce the desired marketable type, makes more sense than putting a breed adapted to the Scottish highlands (albeit with some added genetics over the years), into an environment totally opposite to that in which it evolved.

well they must not have told these fellers around here cause every tom,dick and harry got a herd of em

 

[3waycross]

Are you sure you want to go there? If so, we can discuss all those other "polled breeds" that became polled when they turned black......[/quote]

Like polled Herefords, Red Polls,Polled Shorthorns(RED),Fleckvieh??????????????????????????????????[/quote]

Simmental got black and polled. Limousin got black and polled. Maines are black and polled. Or sometimes they used Red Angus. Murray Grey's are half Angus and polled.

The Hereford breed is not a polled breed. There used to be a Polled Hereford Assn, but no more. One of my neighbors used to have a nice red Shorthorn herd. Today the cows run with a black Limmi bull. Some calves have horns, some don't. Why do you think they're named "shorthorn?" Fleckvieh is a Simmental.[/quote]

Go back and read the silly post you just set forth here. It address none of my point or anyone elses. Polled Herefords are still polled(with no Angus influense) Red Polls are still polled(with no Angus influence) Polled Shorthorns are still polled (without Angus influence),Polled Fleckvieh are still polled( without Angus influence)
BTW you cannot say there is no such thing as a (RED) Angus in one breath and then use them as an example in another breath.
I am also not sure Muarry Grey can be characterized as being HALF Angus. Influenced maybe but half, maybe not.

I have said it befor and I will say it again. You are once again hoisted on your own petard.

 

[hillsdown]

I just got a very PO"d email from a fleckvieh breeder friend of mine that read like this :

YOU ARE SO WRONG FRANKIE .

Fleckvieh is a Simmental and FLECKVIEH IS TRUE SIMMI no angus influence in the polled at all.

Not my words, my friends .. I just told her that I woukd share them with everyone..

I am just wondering if angus is responsible for the polled Holsteins ,,but I guess it is only fair since most of the larger framed angus can be linked to Holstein blood.. ;-)

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I happen to own a Homozygous polled Fullblood Limousin Bull. No angus in him.

 

[3waycross]

I happen to own a Homozygous polled Fullblood Limousin Bull. No angus in him.

Better go look again. Frankie says: there must be some in there somewhere. Without it he's just plain no good anyway.

 

[houstoncutter]

I happen to own a Homozygous polled Fullblood Limousin Bull. No angus in him.

Better go look again. Frankie says: there must be some in there somewhere. Without it he's just plain no good anyway.

Better check him out Red Bull Breeder.....that High CountryWrangler that he has in his bloodlines is the tip off,,,,,,,,you didnt know ol Wrangler was in drag.....and really he was a Black Angus.......Frankie has spoken :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Have to look back aways Houstoncutter but i don't think he shows any Wrangler. Goes back to polled Wonder. Anyways Homo Polled Fullbloods are not that rare now a days.

 

[novatech]

In regard to an earlier post. Frankie is right on. Highly heritable traits have little to no effect on heterosis. Therefore quality is not increased due to heterosis. On the other hand where Frankie is wrong is that ADG is not a highly heritable trait. It is considered, by most, to be moderately heritable. This is more evident the farther apart the gene pool becomes. Bos Taurus X Bos Taurus will not show much addition to ADG but Bos Taurus X Bos Indicus will.
There is no doubt that Angus can add quality to meat. I also have no doubt that an Angus can be bred up or down to just about anything one desires. It is just a matter of using the genetics to do so and having enough time in ones life to accomplish it.
Angus, have excelled in feed lot tests for ADG and the quality grade produced. They are awarded top prices for doing so. There is another side of the coin. Even though they bring a higher price per pound of edible on the plate beef it is produced at a higher cost. Angus are lacking in feed efficiency. There are other breeds that excel in feed efficiency but lack the quality grade meat of Angus which also translates into dollars. It is simply a choice as to what direction the producer wants to go or what that individual producer finds more profitable.
You can breed better feed efficiency into Angus, or breed higher quality into more feed efficient cattle through properly selected cross breeding.

 

[dun]

Have to look back aways Houstoncutter but i don't think he shows any Wrangler. Goes back to polled Wonder. Anyways Homo Polled Fullbloods are not that rare now a days.

I've alwasy been curiouus how breeds that have been bred for a 100 years or more and not had any polled cattle can all of a sudden have them start popping up if there isn;t an ethiopian in the fuel supply somewhere.

 

[dun]

There is no doubt that Angus can add quality to meat. I also have no doubt that an Angus can be bred up or down to just about anything one desires. It is just a matter of using the genetics to do so and having enough time in ones life to accomplish it.
Angus, have excelled in feed lot tests for ADG and the quality grade produced. They are awarded top prices for doing so. There is another side of the coin. Even though they bring a higher price per pound of edible on the plate beef it is produced at a higher cost. Angus are lacking in feed efficiency. There are other breeds that excel in feed efficiency but lack the quality grade meat of Angus which also translates into dollars. It is simply a choice as to what direction the producer wants to go or what that individual producer finds more profitable.
You can breed better feed efficiency into Angus, or breed higher quality into more feed efficient cattle through properly selected cross breeding.

Well put!

 

[novatech]

Have to look back aways Houstoncutter but i don't think he shows any Wrangler. Goes back to polled Wonder. Anyways Homo Polled Fullbloods are not that rare now a days.

I've alwasy been curiouus how breeds that have been bred for a 100 years or more and not had any polled cattle can all of a sudden have them start popping up if there isn;t an ethiopian in the fuel supply somewhere.

How the heck did they come up with Polled Brahman???? Or a a Polled Holstein???
Maybe they started with some kind off freak of nature.

 

[Jovid]

Have to look back aways Houstoncutter but i don't think he shows any Wrangler. Goes back to polled Wonder. Anyways Homo Polled Fullbloods are not that rare now a days.

I've alwasy been curiouus how breeds that have been bred for a 100 years or more and not had any polled cattle can all of a sudden have them start popping up if there isn;t an ethiopian in the fuel supply somewhere.

How the heck did they come up with Polled Brahman???? Or a a Polled Holstein???
Maybe they started with some kind off freak of nature.

I guess the same way they got those Angus that were a frame score 10 in the 80s ;-)

 

[FarmGirl10]

I've alwasy been curiouus how breeds that have been bred for a 100 years or more and not had any polled cattle can all of a sudden have them start popping up if there isn;t an ethiopian in the fuel supply somewhere.

How the heck did they come up with Polled Brahman???? Or a a Polled Holstein???
Maybe they started with some kind off freak of nature.

I guess the same way they got those Angus that were a frame score 10 in the 80s ;-)

And random white patches.

 

[houstoncutter]

Have to look back aways Houstoncutter but i don't think he shows any Wrangler. Goes back to polled Wonder. Anyways Homo Polled Fullbloods are not that rare now a days.

I've alwasy been curiouus how breeds that have been bred for a 100 years or more and not had any polled cattle can all of a sudden have them start popping up if there isn;t an ethiopian in the fuel supply somewhere.

How the heck did they come up with Polled Brahman???? Or a a Polled Holstein???
Maybe they started with some kind off freak of nature.[/quote


The cow that started the fullblood polled trait in Limis was a freak......one of her offspring, High Country Wrangler was a homo polled fullblood and was big time used.....problem with him was that he was a protophelia carrier....I know the spelling of that is probably not right....Some of you Limi seedstock guys can chime in anytime......The bull was out of the Mel Hatley ranch in Oka.....their was quite a stink over the bull, because its said that the Hatleys knew this bull had the problem....The bull was sold to the Edgemont Limousin and the S### hit the fan...Shortly after that the Limousin Ass started checking bloodlines to determine if anymore cattle carried the problem.....It was alleged that the Limi Association waited to do this until after the Hatley dispersal sale, because the knew the herd was chock full of problem cattle......If you look on a Limi registation paper it will say that a bull or cow is Proto free or a carrier or undetermined.

 

[Frankie]

More reasons to use Angus.

AngusSource® Carcass Challenge Brings Out the Best

Second quarter winners zero in on quality through AngusSource

Mason Fleenor may squint a little when checking pens, but he certainly sees 20/20 when it comes to selecting top-quality cattle.

The Iowa seedstock producer and manager of GG Genetics feedlot picked out 41 of his own steers to win the northeast region's AngusSource Carcass Challenge (ASCC) second quarter title for 2009, with 90.2% qualifying for the Certified Angus Beef ® (CAB®) brand or USDA Prime.

But he's not the only one with a vision for great AngusSource genetic- age- and source- verified cattle. Mike Kasten, Millersville, Mo.; Jimmy Thomas, Homedale, Idaho; and Jack and June Zimmerman, Checotah, Okla., also took top honors in their regions for the April-June quarter.

This was the first ASCC entry for Fleenor and his wife Diane, but for more than 20 years they have focused on producing Angus bulls that enhance carcass quality. From 2003 to '06, their cattle set the pace in the National Angus Carcass Challenge as well, winning two championships.

"We've always tried to breed for carcass traits, and you just have to keep breeding them – you have to have those traits on the cow and the sire sides." says Fleenor. "We've been using high-marbling, high-carcass bulls for a long time, and now it's finally getting into the cowherd, too."

Besides feeding their own calves, the Fleenors buy calves from their bull customers to feed in their CAB-licensed feedlot. There, they get a high-energy, high-roughage ration but minimal implants. This recent ASCC-winning pen, comprised of steers culled from bull prospects, entered the contest implant-free.

The feedlot pens are stock-full of cattle that consistently grade above the curve. "All of our cattle grade good, because they're all out of our genetics," Fleenor says, while admitting, "I guess I'm kind of prejudiced."

He doesn't use ultrasound to sort, relying on focused information and a practiced visual focus, an eye for quality: "When I know the genetics and have the data behind me, I can pick 'em every time."

To the southwest, the crew at Irsik & Doll Feed Yard (IDFY), Garden City, Kan., maintains sharp sights as well. Missourian Mike Kasten repeated his first quarter ASCC victory in the central region with the help of feedlot manager Mark Sebranek and CAB quality assurance officer Jerry Jackson. IDFY also foregoes the use of ultrasound technology for a trained eye and historical data on animals from a herd they have worked with for more than 10 years.

"We have enough data and pedigrees from the past on our cows, we've got a good handle on estimating which ones are going to do well," says Kasten. He and wife Priscilla have kept carcass data for more than 20 years. The couple work to closely match proven bulls to cows with a history of top-quality carcass progeny.

Using timed artificial insemination (AI), Kasten attributes much of his carcass contest success to one bull. "His calves have been averaging 42% Prime," he says. "We work hard to get those cattle bred with the best proven genetics, and getting in there with AI gives us more consistency and quality in our cattle."

Nearly 90% of Kasten's 39-head pen of steers made CAB or Prime in the second quarter, consistent with the 90.5% pen that won first quarter. Both were heavily influenced by the same bull, which Kasten has spent 20 years stacking pedigrees to produce.

In the north-central region, Jimmy Thomas similarly relies on proven genetics. He and wife Sarah have sourced bulls from Rancho Casino and Dal Porto Livestock in California for nearly 15 years. "They're good people with good cattle, and we are good friends," Thomas says. "That makes it pretty easy to do good work.

"All the bulls we buy are performance tested," Thomas says. "We don't just go by the EPDs (expected progeny differences); they give us the actual marbling scores and ribeye measurements. We put quite a bit of emphasis on that." A tight genetic focus paid off with 85% of his 40-head pen achieving CAB acceptance or Prime.

Thomas puts those genetics to use at Beller Feedlot in Lindsey, Neb. He and feedlot manager Terry Beller share a competitive spirit. Beller says, "We love challenges. Our goal is always to produce as many Prime and CAB carcasses as we can without getting too big and too fat."

Thomas is right on cue. "I guess you could say I'm kind of competitive," he says. "CAB is the most noted branded beef program there is, and over the years I've been able to finish above the national average on CAB acceptance rates."

Thomas and Beller are no strangers to success. They met in 2003 when Thomas was accepting the CAB Commercial Commitment to Excellence award and Beller was being honored as the brand's Small Feedlot Partner of the Year. Both have frequented the winner's circle in Angus carcass contests.

But it's not always a focus on attaining the best cattle that matters. Sometimes, success is found in getting rid of the poorer ones. Jack and June Zimmerman won the ASCC southeast region for the quarter with 48.8% CAB acceptance or Prime, and no grading discounts. The couple feed their cattle with Buffalo (Okla.) Feeders.

Buffalo manager Tom Fanning says that perfect record is a key to profitability: "Look at this – it's zero discounts!" he says, pointing to the data sheets. "What we've learned is, the premiums are great, but it's not always how many premiums you have; it's how many discounts you don't have."

The Zimmermans started keeping detailed ranch records in 1979 when they purchased JZ6 Ranch. Thirty years later, they still meticulously track herd records and carcass data.

"June and Jack know every cow on their place. They know their bloodlines – they know everything about everything in their herd," says Fanning.

All ASCC contestants will be in the know by the end of the calendar year when the overall annual winner is announced. Regional winners from each quarter will be eligible for the $500 cash award. The competition will stiffen as the year goes on – entries nearly quadrupled from the first quarter to second quarter. "We encourage more feedyards to enter the contest," says Sara Snider, director of AngusSource. "It is so exciting to see this contest grow. The carcass results we're getting back are a real tribute to what quality Angus genetics can do."

For more information on AngusSource or the ASCC, call 816-383-5100 or visit http://www.AngusSource.com.

http://www.angus.org/Pub/Newsroom/Relea ... ce_PR.html

 

[Frankie]

I guess the same way they got those Angus that were a frame score 10 in the 80s ;-)

Frame score is a highly heritable trait. If your main concern is taller cattle, it doesn't take many generations to get there.

 

[Frankie]

In regard to an earlier post. Frankie is right on. Highly heritable traits have little to no effect on heterosis. Therefore quality is not increased due to heterosis. On the other hand where Frankie is wrong is that ADG is not a highly heritable trait. It is considered, by most, to be moderately heritable. This is more evident the farther apart the gene pool becomes. Bos Taurus X Bos Taurus will not show much addition to ADG but Bos Taurus X Bos Indicus will.

So those hundreds of references you claimed showed I didn't know what I was talking about were just figments of your imagination? Little hint for you: So is this comment.

Two of the links I posted clearly showed that feedlot gain was NOT improved by crossbreeding. I pay a lot of attention to feedlot gain. It's important to me. Over the years I've asked "experts" from various agencies about the influence of crossbreeding on feedlot gain. Watching bull tests and comparing the gains there to average feedlot gains, it just didn't make any sense to me. Yes, I understand bulls feed differently. Yes, I understand that "average" in feedlots covers a lot of variation in cattle, but still..... So finally I asked the question here at Cattle Today and someone (maybe Dun?) gave me this link:

http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare ... 150web.pdf

It's an OK State University report that says clearly "Highly heritable traits like feed efficiency and carcass quality exhibit little or no heterosis." I've been very grateful for that link. It scratched an itch that had been worrying me for a long time. Since then, I've found more articles saying the same thing. Why do you insist in refusing to acknowledge these scientific/research papers? Is it because they don't say what you want?

There is no doubt that Angus can add quality to meat. I also have no doubt that an Angus can be bred up or down to just about anything one desires. It is just a matter of using the genetics to do so and having enough time in ones life to accomplish it.
Angus, have excelled in feed lot tests for ADG and the quality grade produced. They are awarded top prices for doing so. There is another side of the coin. Even though they bring a higher price per pound of edible on the plate beef it is produced at a higher cost. Angus are lacking in feed efficiency. There are other breeds that excel in feed efficiency but lack the quality grade meat of Angus which also translates into dollars. It is simply a choice as to what direction the producer wants to go or what that individual producer finds more profitable.
You can breed better feed efficiency into Angus, or breed higher quality into more feed efficient cattle through properly selected cross breeding.

:roll: As a breed, Angus is feed efficient. Feedlots know it. When Angus were first brought to the US, they were considered freaks because they had no horns. It was their ability to gain on feed that made their mark in the US beef industry.

But it's true that not all Angus gain well, and we're working on that. Today we performance test more bulls than any other breed. Look at the bull test stations operating around the country and you'll see that Angus are competitive with other breeds, while producing quality carcasses.