Which mineral to use and when, 9:18 vs 6:12

[Nesikep]

Well, we just picked up a couple bags each of 2 different mineral mixes

The first is a 9%Ca, 18% phosphorus ($40 a bag), with 100mg/kg selenium
the second is 6%Ca, 12%Phosphorus ($31 a bag), with 150mg/kg selenium

The rest of the minerals are pretty close (I'll get the exact numbers on both on monday), I was wondering which people would use depending on the time of year, I was going to use the 9/18 from a month or two before calving through the breeding season, then feed the 6/12, but on seeing the higher selenium content of the 6/12, I'm rethinking that... I might be further ahead feeding the high selenium before calving, perhaps switching to the 9:18 for post-calving through breeding, and then back to the 6/12 come about July. I figure I might do another blood test this fall or maybe next april just before breeding season. (Last showed very low P, low Se, and fairly low Cu, and our cows showed symptoms of each, RP, Pica and fur discoloration)

 

[TexasBred]

Nesi I'm not familar with typical feeds, grasses, etc. in your area but notice all the minerals you've talked about have inverted cah ratios. What is the purpose for this?? The only time I've ever fed or recommended anything like a 6:12 mineral was for very "close up dry cows". The amount of Se: in the mix seems to be extremely high.

 

[Floyd]

Not if one is in an area with selinium deficient soils.

 

[John SD]

I also wonder about the inverted Ca/P ratio? Most minerals today are around 2:1 Ca/P Last week I picked up some Vigortone 3V2S Ca is 13%-15.6% P is 7% Salt is 18.2%-21.8% Selenium is 26.4 ppm Price was $29.50

My cows are hungry for mineral and have been all winter. Been eating about a bag per day lately and don't seem to slow down on it. I also have free choice TM salt blocks out for them. I might start mixing loose salt with the mineral to try to slow them down because it gets kind of expensive after a while.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Perhaos the ratio is normal and Nesikep just mixed them up?

 

[TexasBred]

Not if one is in an area with selinium deficient soils.

How deficient?? Gonna try to make it all up in one day?? That's about 5-7 times above normal. I guess it will work great if it don't kill'em first. Se. is toxic you know???

 

[TexasBred]

I also wonder about the inverted Ca/P ratio? Most minerals today are around 2:1 Ca/P Last week I picked up some Vigortone 3V2S Ca is 13%-15.6% P is 7% Salt is 18.2%-21.8% Selenium is 26.4 ppm Price was $29.50

My cows are hungry for mineral and have been all winter. Been eating about a bag per day lately and don't seem to slow down on it. I also have free choice TM salt blocks out for them. I might start mixing loose salt with the mineral to try to slow them down because it gets kind of expensive after a while.

Don't know how many head are consuming that much John but if it's above recommended consumption rate you might have to back them off a bit with the salt.

 

[Floyd]

Thanks for sharing that Se is toxic.

It may suprise you to learn water is toxic as well.

If you are not in a Se deficient I guess 100+ppm would be considered high.

I expect that is why loose minerals are site specific.

Maybe you are not in a Se deficient area.


It may suprise you that everywhere is not like Texas.
What a novel concept, eh?

 

[TexasBred]

I'm

Thanks for sharing that Se is toxic.

It may suprise you to learn water is toxic as well.

If you are not in a Se deficient I guess 100+ppm would be considered high.

I expect that is why loose minerals are site specific.

Maybe you are not in a Se deficient area.


It may suprise you that everywhere is not like Texas.
What a novel concept, eh?

You're correct, I am not in a selenium deficient area and absolutely 100 ppm is high but as I said you don't try to replace the deficiency in one day. Very few minerals in fact are "site specific". A few companies make a stab at it but in general use generally accepted levels. I assume you also ensure that sulfur and zinc are not too elevated in your mineral so as not to futher inhibit the absorption of the added selenium. How much selenium is allowed to be included in finished feed where you live Floyd?? Just curious.

And yes water can be toxic....even sterile water. And you're right....everywhere it not like Texas. But that's your loss prick. :mrgreen:

 

[John SD]

I also wonder about the inverted Ca/P ratio? Most minerals today are around 2:1 Ca/P Last week I picked up some Vigortone 3V2S Ca is 13%-15.6% P is 7% Salt is 18.2%-21.8% Selenium is 26.4 ppm Price was $29.50

My cows are hungry for mineral and have been all winter. Been eating about a bag per day lately and don't seem to slow down on it. I also have free choice TM salt blocks out for them. I might start mixing loose salt with the mineral to try to slow them down because it gets kind of expensive after a while.

Don't know how many head are consuming that much John but if it's above recommended consumption rate you might have to back them off a bit with the salt.

150+/- head in the pasture including coming 2 yr old heifers to BM cows, one bull (need to get him pulled out), and a couple running age cows with month old calves at side.

If my math is correct, mineral consumption is something over 5oz/hd/day. Mineral tag doesn't recommend over 4oz/hd/day because of the selenium limitation. This is a selenium deficient area so I'm not overly concerned about it.

The cows are grazing dormant native grass pasture which usually translates into higher than "normal" mineral consumption this time of year. Mineral consumption would likely be somewhat less if I was feeding hay or some kind of supplement.

 

[TexasBred]

Doesn't sound like they're grossly overconsuming John 5oz is 25% over so you still might want to add a little additional salt. At least you're using that good Vigortone Mineral. ;-)

 

[John SD]

My artesian water is high in sulphur and sodium. Cows aren't drinking much of it right now because they can access seep water on the backside of a dam.

To my knowledge I've never had a problem with sulphur overconsumption. I have fed weaned calves DDG when they were drinking artesian water. I've also made my own "lick tubs" out of DDG with enough salt added to limit consumption. Some DDGs contain a high level of sulphur from the sulphuric acid used to kill the fermentation process.

 

[TexasBred]

My artesian water is high in sulphur and sodium. Cows aren't drinking much of it right now because they can access seep water on the backside of a dam.

To my knowledge I've never had a problem with sulphur overconsumption. I have fed weaned calves DDG when they were drinking artesian water. I've also made my own "lick tubs" out of DDG with enough salt added to limit consumption. Some DDGs contain a high level of sulphur from the sulphuric acid used to kill the fermentation process.

Lot of sulfur water scattered around. Never known it to be a problem except when "I" had to drink it. :lol2:

 

[John SD]

Doesn't sound like they're grossly overconsuming John 5oz is 25% over so you still might want to add a little additional salt. At least you're using that good Vigortone Mineral. ;-)

And the Vigortone was good fresh stuff right off the truck. The guy was out of it last week. He got this batch in a couple hours before I stopped in. ;-)

He says everyone's cattle are nuts for salt and mineral this mild winter because everyone is enjoying such an extended winter grazing period. Last year we were up to our rear ends in snow for a couple months by now. :shock:

 

[Nesikep]

I've been told before that my ca ratios are backwards, they aren't... our cows will chew on anything (pica). I had a blood test done on a cow and she was WAY low in phosphorus (nearly half minimum levels). As for selenium, we're really low in that as well, same cow had a marginal Se levels 2 months after I gave her 8cc dystosel

Here are the analyses of the minerals
Starting with the 6:12
Se 150 mg/kg
Ca 6%
p 12%
Mg 4%
Fe 4000 mg/kg
F 3000 mg (max)
Zn 5000 mg
Mn 2600 mg
Cu 2600 mg
Co 100 mg
I 500 mg
Vit A 1,100,000 IU
Vid D 110,000 IU
Vid E 3,500 IU

And the 9:18 mix
Se 100 mg/kg
Ca 9%
P 18%
Mg 0.5%
Fe 7500 mg/kg
F 3000 mg (max)
Zn 5000 mg
Mn 2600 mg
Cu 2600 mg
Co 100 mg
I 500 mg
Vit A 1,100,000 IU
Vit D 110,000 IU
Vit E 2,000 IU

So, a summary is the 6:12 is higher in Calcium, Magnesium (much), vit E, and selenium, while lower in Iron (about half) all other aspects are the same
As for the diet of the cows, they are fed a legume/grass feed, typically an alfalfa/brome/orchardgrass mix of sorts, and we usually have a couple hundred bales of oat hay from a reseed. Legumes and grasses are known to be low in phosphorus, aggravated no doubt by low soil P levels.

As for the salt ratio, I typically feed about a 60/40 salt/mineral mix. I also have a bag of unknown beef mineral mix that I throw a bit in each time to get rid of it

Now, given a fuller description of the mineral bag tags and the area and previous blood tests, you think that the 6:12 is for pre-calving, while the 9:18 is for breeding season?

 

[TexasBred]

Nesi both highly fortified minerals and should work well for you knowing your circumstances with the ph. and Se. Still think the Se is a bit elevated but it also looks to be a low consumption mineral (2 oz or less) based on nutrient levels. The 6:12 should work well for both pre-calving and breeding since you pretty much feed the legume/grass/hay year round. Don't know that I would dilute it so much with the salt though. I don't know what your situation is with iron but with those levels of iron in the mix I can certainly see why you would also probably have copper deficiencies in the cattle. Most minerals have very little to NO iron added and especially at such high levels. Vitamin levels....very high.

Anyway, this has got to be a pretty darn expensive mineral but should work well for you.

 

[Nesikep]

I might talk to them about the iron content. it's 31 $/bag for the 6:12. I might feed it free choice with seperate salt once they've kinda replenished themselves and won't hog down a bag a week.

 

[Nesikep]

Oh, while on this subject, I've heard a guy saying he feed sulfur salt blocks which helps control flies... is there any truth in this?

 

[maryk]

Wow, a sulfur salt block to control flies. Can't wait to hear if there is ant truth to that.

 

[Amo]

How about diametric earth to use as an internal wormer! Got a feed man in my country pushing it for that. Parasite eats the diametric earth (clay I think) and it swells in the parasite (I think) also something about it having corse rough edges and making parasite split open, die, and pass through.