What to do with open cows?

[regolith]

I do agree in the generalization of this thread, so let just look at what info TN has given to us.

173 cows poorly managed and 53 are open. Well that means 120 of these cows conceived under the same management of the remaining 53. Are some of these just old, first calvers that were having trouble breeding back, have some been open for a long time? These are details that we would need.

TN clearly wants a tight fall calving window. I just do not see why anyone would wait, turn the bulls out, wait again, preg check, then sell them as shortbreds when you can cash in now and replace with cattle that are going to fit into his program :help: .... Maybe I am over simplifying it?

Justin

It all depends on the answer to Dave's questions. To my eye, the original plan was a good one. It's late spring/summer, presuming grass is available and the plan is to sell unsuitable cows and buy suitable ones the time of the exchange isn't all that important... the income/expense of the various options is.
The opportunity cost also... lets say instead of grazing these cows for another four months they are sold now, buy steers and graze them, sell mid-summer, buy the fall calvers... You haven't fed either group of cows through the summer and maybe gained a bit on the steers... or made more hay, or fed your other cows better.

The presumption that the in calf cows are better performers is a fair one. Selling the opens - now or later - retains that advantage. Any bought in cows don't have that advantage. Chances are that the majority of those cows are normal & fertile, giving them a chance with the bull will soon prove if that's the case... another risk to consider when weighing up the options.
A lot more of a cow's performance is management than we give credit for, I suspect, rather than her innate ability or genetics.

 

[Dave]

Way too much generalization going on in this thread. You abosulutely make more money selling to the consumers. Significantly more and you eliminate the middle men. It is a win/win situation. Each consumer is not wanting a pot load of uniform calves. They want one animal or 1/2 of one.

This board has too much generalization. Always has had. That and too much "this is what I would do" when giving advise clear across the country. There is without a doubt more money in selling directly to consumers by the 1/2 or whole. But he is talking 173 cows. To sell that many calves to consumers it would literally be one every other day. Good luck with that. Not impossible but you would have to be a full time marketer. If he running a cow/calf operation that is selling calves coming off the cow and that is his business plan, there is no doubt that the ability to sell uniform pot loads will make you more money.

His original question was about breeding and selling as short breds. My answer was how much are they worth today? I don't know this because I have never seen the cattle or know his local market. Next I said how much would it cost to get then to a sellable point as short breds. Again a question that he would have to answer. How much feed does he have? What condition are the cows in today? And then what are short breds worth in his market? All of those are things that he would need to be able to answer before making a decision. None of us can make that decision sitting at a computer miles away.

And in my mind they aren't perfectly good cows. Because they are open cows. Fertility is one of, if not the most important trait in a beef cow. Odds are that those cows that didn't breed the first time wont jump right into a 10 1/2 month schedule. Some might but most probably wont. But even the ones that did it would take 4 years to get them to a fall calving schedule. There is an old saying in cow/calf operations that certainly applies here. "If they aren't bred, you're dead." If a cow isn't going to raise a calf on schedule she is just a pit to throw money into.

 

[SRBeef]

As long as you are sure there is no problem with your bulls and they had 2 or 3 cycles with the bull and are still not bred, my suggestion is to immediately sell all 53 open cows and concentrate your time and resources on the ones that are bred. A tighter calving period, whether that is spring or fall, seems to me to be a key to profitability.

Wasting time and energy on trying to get the open ones bred, you may end up with half or more of them STILL open and have wasted a lot of time and money.

With the recent "pink slime" situation, cull cows are actually in demand for "lean" beef/hamburger. High dressing slaughter cows brought 80-88 cents/lb, lower dressing 70-79 cents at as local sale here this week. Assuming 80 cents on a 1400 lb cow that is around $1100 right now. Vs putting a lot more time and energy and money in them and if they get bred getting maybe $1500 in several months???

Sell them now and don't look back, concentrate your efforts on the ones that are bred for calving when you want them to. jmho.

Good luck

Jim

 

[medicinewoman]

tncattle

I have read this entire thread several times and found no reason to change my position.
I still believe you, or the owner, have set an impossible goal when you take all the variables of breeding cattle into consideration.
I still hold that you can not reach much over a 70% 1 time fall 60 day calving season with the number of cows you have.
To me Bozo's 70% calving rate for a 60 day breeding cycle is perfectly acceptable.

If I were you I would go to a 90 or even a 120 day breeding cycle to achieve an 80 or 90+ % calving rate. Then and only then would I consider culling any cows.
If you don't, due to the many variables in breeding cattle and other poor management decisions you most likely will be replacing your entire herd over the next 5 years in an attempt to reach an impossible goal.

You must remember the dam is only one third of the equation. Management and the bull (s) makes up the other two thirds.

As you are in TN I seriously doubt "lack of care" or the dam is the real problem you are facing.
Good luck
MW

 

[SRBeef]

... 70% calving rate for a 60 day breeding cycle is perfectly acceptable.

Maybe I am missing something, but I cannot imagine a 70% breeding rate is acceptable for anything except going out of business. Even the AI folks use a cleanup bull. It seems to me that with enough good bulls and reasonable environmental factors, you should be in the 95% range and sell the open 5% immediately after preg checking open.

I am barely more than a beginner but I can count.

Jim

 

[medicinewoman]

SR,
Let me rephrase that to make my self a little clearer.

A 60 day breeding cycle is not long enough to breed all cows in the herd to calve within a 60 day time period. Both the breeding and calving season are too short.
The best one can expect is about a 70% calving rate within that projected 60 day time frame.
The keyword is "60 days".

The first problem you face is to get all cows to calve within a 60 day period so they can start to recycle to rebreed.
The second problem is, not all cows recycle at the same rate. Some cows will recycle within 60 days, but many will be outside the 60 day time period. Some may even go up to 120 days depending on the difficulty of their past birth and other factors.
Then there is the problem of having enough bull power to cover all those cows with SAGs in such a short period of time. ( 60 days )
Those 3 variables are more then enough to put 30% of any herd outside of a 60 day breeding and/or calving cycle.
Not to mention that cows can be up to 2 weeks early or late in their calving.

By reintroducing a cleanup bull or AI, you are changing the goal from a "60 day" calving cycle to some other goal.
What you are stating is a NEW goal of 95% calving rate with no restrictions on the breeding season.
That is an achievable goal.
But by using only a 60 day breeding season, it is not!
About the best you can expect from a 60 day breeding and calving cycle is 70%.
Did I clear that up?
MW

 

[SRBeef]

hmmm. As I recall, the bovine cycle is somewhere around 23 days. 60 days is almost 3 cycles. With a reasonable bull to cow ratio and terain to be covered, they darn well should all be bred on 2 cycles.

My calving started March 27. All but two cows I purchased as May calving bred heifers 2 years ago (remind me not to buy out of sync bred females again) have calved. The last one today.

I put my bull(s) in on June 18th. Even the one that calved today will have about a 60 day window to start cycling again. A 75 days ppi is reasonable and all should be bred by their 2nd cycle after bull in or they need to be in someone else's herd or hamburger.

So no you have not convinced me that a 70% bred rate after 3 cycles with a bull is acceptable.Making excuses for cows not bred gets very expensive. University numbers use $500 as a typical cost to keep a cow for a year. If I am spending $500 on that cow she darn well needs to produce some income by producing a calf or going to the sale barn.

Jim

 

[medicinewoman]

SR,

hmmm. As I recall, the bovine cycle is somewhere around 23 days. 60 days is almost 3 cycles.

As I hear it, "almost" only counts in horseshoes.

Not all cow cycle in exactly 23 days. And most are usually late with their first cycle after giving birth. Then there is the silent heat cycle issue which is very common in cows who have just given birth.

With a reasonable bull to cow ratio and terain to be covered, they darn well should all be bred on 2 cycles.

True, but how many days does it take to reach that true 2nd cycle is the real question.

A cow that gives birth and doesn't cycle until 40 days after giving birth and has a silent heat for her 1st cycle and then can breed on her 2nd cycle is now out there past the 60 day breeding season at 63 days after the bull has been pulled.

So no you have not convinced me that a 70% bred rate after 3 cycles with a bull is acceptable.

Well again you are changing the breeding season.
3 cycles = 69 days and you need to add at least 30 more days to recuperate from giving birth. Now you are talking about a 99 day breeding cycle, not a 60 day breeding and calving cycle.

To cover a herd size on 173 in 60 days, if it is even possible, you would need at least 1 bull for every 25 cows and the cost of those bulls, including loss to injury, would far out way any thing gained from having a 60 day breeding and calving season.

I would still go with a 90 or even a 120 breeding and calving season.

But what ever works for you is fine with me.
MW

 

[regolith]

70% might be acceptable after 21 days 8)

Does it need to be spelled out? Supposing a cow calves 1 September. Bulls out 84 days later for 60 days - she's had twelve weeks to recover and if she catches her next calf on the first day she calves 1 September next year - bingo! Cow calves 30 October. Bulls out 24 days later for 60 days, chances are she'll catch around 60 - 80 days post-calving.
Every other cow falls in between those dates.
Me, I usually follow an 84 day calving season with an 84 day mating season, expect 93% in calf and the later calvers might have a higher open rate... what you call self-culling. A well managed beef cow herd can expect better results than that.

 

[SRBeef]

SR,

hmmm. As I recall, the bovine cycle is somewhere around 23 days. 60 days is almost 3 cycles.

As I hear it, "almost" only counts in horseshoes.

Not all cow cycle in exactly 23 days. And most are usually late with their first cycle after giving birth. Then there is the silent heat cycle issue which is very common in cows who have just given birth.

With a reasonable bull to cow ratio and terain to be covered, they darn well should all be bred on 2 cycles.

True, but how many days does it take to reach that true 2nd cycle is the real question.

A cow that gives birth and doesn't cycle until 40 days after giving birth and has a silent heat for her 1st cycle and then can breed on her 2nd cycle is now out there past the 60 day breeding season at 63 days after the bull has been pulled.

So no you have not convinced me that a 70% bred rate after 3 cycles with a bull is acceptable.

Well again you are changing the breeding season.
3 cycles = 69 days and you need to add at least 30 more days to recuperate from giving birth. Now you are talking about a 99 day breeding cycle, not a 60 day breeding and calving cycle.

To cover a herd size on 173 in 60 days, if it is even possible, you would need at least 1 bull for every 25 cows and the cost of those bulls, including loss to injury, would far out way any thing gained from having a 60 day breeding and calving season.

I would still go with a 90 or even a 120 breeding and calving season.

But what ever works for you is fine with me.
MW

Last time for me, simply put:

- Hereford gestation period is 283 days from AHA website.

- A year has 365 days

- 365-283 = 82 days

- Therefore a cow has 82 days after calving to recover from calving, start cycling again and get rebred, otherwise her calving date keeps falling back every year.

- If cows keep falling back, pretty soon you have almost no calving season at all.

- "experts" generally agree the tighter the calving period, the better/more profitable the beef operation.

- I personally do not want cows around that can not have a calf and get rebred within 82 days, provided I make sure she has proper nutrition and a good bull.

- your statement above "I would still go with a 90 or even a 120 breeding and calving season." is greater than 82 days which means every year cows will fall back further and further.

Over and out on this one.

Jim

 

[ANAZAZI]

If the management is not right, for example the cow get way too little to eat, that is the one factor to consider. Now that has been solved by getting a new manager.
Normally a bull period of 60 days is enough. Say there are a hundred cows. Like the others point out 70% pregnant first service is normal, I would go as far as to say that close to 70%, say 67% of the remaining will settle on second service, that means 70 cows first service + 20 cows from second service. Now there will still be 10 cows left, and the remaining group contains a few bad apples. Let us guess 40% of those are bred in the remaining 18 days. 70 + 20 + 4 = 94% bred.
70% for the whole herd in 60 days is far from acceptable, and poor nutrition is a good explanation.

 

[SRBeef]

If the management is not right, for example the cow get way too little to eat, that is the one factor to consider. Now that has been solved by getting a new manager.
Normally a bull period of 60 days is enough. Say there are a hundred cows. Like the others point out 70% pregnant first service is normal, I would go as far as to say that close to 70%, say 67% of the remaining will settle on second service, that means 70 cows first service + 20 cows from second service. Now there will still be 10 cows left, and the remaining group contains a few bad apples. Let us guess 40% of those are bred in the remaining 18 days. 70 + 20 + 4 = 94% bred.
70% for the whole herd in 60 days is far from acceptable, and poor nutrition is a good explanation.

Very good explanation. Thank you.

Jim

 

[Dave]

I still hold that you can not reach much over a 70% 1 time fall 60 day calving season with the number of cows you have.
To me Bozo's 70% calving rate for a 60 day breeding cycle is perfectly acceptable

I know a number of rancher who have 4,5, even 10 times or more cows than we are talking about here. They typically run a 60 day calving period with 95% or better bred. And they are doing it on much rougher land and much much bigger acreage. I don't know where you are from but out here 70% in 60 days is absolutely unacceptable. A 70% calving rate in 60 days is a recipe for bankruptcy.

you would need at least 1 bull for every 25 cows

Yes, one bull to 25 cows. That has been the industry standard on western rangeland for a lot of years. Can he get by with a one or two less in Tenn.? Probably. One or two bulls is a lot less expensive than 50 calves that are 100-200 pounds lighter because they are 100 days younger.

 

[SSGenetics]

SR,

hmmm. As I recall, the bovine cycle is somewhere around 23 days. 60 days is almost 3 cycles.

As I hear it, "almost" only counts in horseshoes.

Not all cow cycle in exactly 23 days. And most are usually late with their first cycle after giving birth. Then there is the silent heat cycle issue which is very common in cows who have just given birth.

With a reasonable bull to cow ratio and terain to be covered, they darn well should all be bred on 2 cycles.

True, but how many days does it take to reach that true 2nd cycle is the real question.

A cow that gives birth and doesn't cycle until 40 days after giving birth and has a silent heat for her 1st cycle and then can breed on her 2nd cycle is now out there past the 60 day breeding season at 63 days after the bull has been pulled.

So no you have not convinced me that a 70% bred rate after 3 cycles with a bull is acceptable.

Well again you are changing the breeding season.
3 cycles = 69 days and you need to add at least 30 more days to recuperate from giving birth. Now you are talking about a 99 day breeding cycle, not a 60 day breeding and calving cycle.

To cover a herd size on 173 in 60 days, if it is even possible, you would need at least 1 bull for every 25 cows and the cost of those bulls, including loss to injury, would far out way any thing gained from having a 60 day breeding and calving season.

I would still go with a 90 or even a 120 breeding and calving season.

But what ever works for you is fine with me.
MW

:shock: You dont raise cattle do you medicinewoman :???:

 

[ChrisB]

I don't want to put words in MW's mouth, but it appears to me that she is talking about getting the cows bred in a 60 day window right after calving. Not a 60 day window starting 3 months after calving. Is that correct MW?

 

[Dave]

I don't want to put words in MW's mouth, but it appears to me that she is talking about getting the cows bred in a 60 day window right after calving. Not a 60 day window starting 3 months after calving. Is that correct MW?

If she is counting the period between calving start and pulling the bulls it is more than 60 days. I turn in the bulls on April 15 (tax day). I pull them 60 days later but not as exact on that date maybe 70 days depending on work load etc. But with April 15 turn out the first calf should be born January 24. With a June 15 pull out the last calf should be March 24. Well January 24 (first calf) to June 15 (bull pull out) is 142 days. Counting the 81 days between the first calf being born and when the bulls get turned out should not be any part of a discussion of a 60 day calving window.

This year my first calf was actually born on time Jan 24. The last calf born March 31. 47 cows with 2 bulls. And 0 opens at preg check last fall. The year before there were two opens. One old cow and one first calver that had a tough pull.

 

[medicinewoman]

Folks please understand I am not being argumentative here, I am simply trying to expose those beginners here to all the information they may need to make good management decisions.
I am not saying anyone is wrong or right in their management decisions, I am simply pointing out that one size does not fit all in the cattle business, no more then it does in any other business.
And that for every decision you make, you most likely will create another problem that will cause you to make/change another decision .
In other words: for every action there is a reaction that must be dealt with.

Now what you all are saying is basically correct, but it has become what is know as old school learning.
What I am talking about is what has become know as new school learning.
Neither of which is considered right or wrong as each is based on the other.
For example,
Old school learning is "the heat cycle of a cow is 23 days and the gestation period is 283 days.
New school learning is that those two statements are correct, but there are variances to both numbers for many reasons. They are no longer carved in stone and should be considered a rule of thumb and not an absolute.

Some of the papers I have read recently have even gone as far to say the heat cycle is 25 days and gestation is 285 days.
The reasons given for this variable were the differences in breeds and cross breeding of the cows studied and newer genetics within those particular breeds.

Now again, I am not disagreeing with anyone's management decisions/practices but I would like to point out that I have not seen a breeding/calving program posted that fully maximizes a cows potential.

A cows full potential, and therefore full profit potential, is to produce 1 calf per colander/fiscal year for 4 years and on or about the 5 year produce 2 calves in that same calendar/fiscal year, not including any twins.

Now if that is your goal, you will have to pay close attention to your cow's open time which is why you will need to know all of the variables to help you control all of your open times.
And to do that you will have to change some of your other management decisions previously made.
You will have to go to a year round breeding/calving season to reduce your open times.

Yes I fully understand you can probably give me a 100 reasons why this should not be done but I can also give you a 100 reasons why it should, so lets not go there and just agree on one size does not fit all.

I am meanly pointing out the full potential of a cow at the upper most end of the spectrum and not criticizing anyone for accepting something less while emphasizing the importance of controlling your open time.
MW

 

[dieselbeef]

eat em

 

[SSGenetics]

I don't want to put words in MW's mouth, but it appears to me that she is talking about getting the cows bred in a 60 day window right after calving. Not a 60 day window starting 3 months after calving. Is that correct MW?

If she is counting the period between calving start and pulling the bulls it is more than 60 days. I turn in the bulls on April 15 (tax day). I pull them 60 days later but not as exact on that date maybe 70 days depending on work load etc. But with April 15 turn out the first calf should be born January 24. With a June 15 pull out the last calf should be March 24. Well January 24 (first calf) to June 15 (bull pull out) is 142 days. Counting the 81 days between the first calf being born and when the bulls get turned out should not be any part of a discussion of a 60 day calving window.

This year my first calf was actually born on time Jan 24. The last calf born March 31. 47 cows with 2 bulls. And 0 opens at preg check last fall. The year before there were two opens. One old cow and one first calver that had a tough pull.

BINGO!

 

[SSGenetics]

Folks please understand I am not being argumentative here, I am simply trying to expose those beginners here to all the information they may need to make good management decisions.
I am not saying anyone is wrong or right in their management decisions, I am simply pointing out that one size does not fit all in the cattle business, no more then it does in any other business.
And that for every decision you make, you most likely will create another problem that will cause you to make/change another decision .
In other words: for every action there is a reaction that must be dealt with.

Now what you all are saying is basically correct, but it has become what is know as old school learning.
What I am talking about is what has become know as new school learning.
Neither of which is considered right or wrong as each is based on the other.
For example,
Old school learning is "the heat cycle of a cow is 23 days and the gestation period is 283 days.
New school learning is that those two statements are correct, but there are variances to both numbers for many reasons. They are no longer carved in stone and should be considered a rule of thumb and not an absolute.

Some of the papers I have read recently have even gone as far to say the heat cycle is 25 days and gestation is 285 days.
The reasons given for this variable were the differences in breeds and cross breeding of the cows studied and newer genetics within those particular breeds.

Now again, I am not disagreeing with anyone's management decisions/practices but I would like to point out that I have not seen a breeding/calving program posted that fully maximizes a cows potential.

A cows full potential, and therefore full profit potential, is to produce 1 calf per colander/fiscal year for 4 years and on or about the 5 year produce 2 calves in that same calendar/fiscal year, not including any twins.

Now if that is your goal, you will have to pay close attention to your cow's open time which is why you will need to know all of the variables to help you control all of your open times.
And to do that you will have to change some of your other management decisions previously made.
You will have to go to a year round breeding/calving season to reduce your open times.

Yes I fully understand you can probably give me a 100 reasons why this should not be done but I can also give you a 100 reasons why it should, so lets not go there and just agree on one size does not fit all.

I am meanly pointing out the full potential of a cow at the upper most end of the spectrum and not criticizing anyone for accepting something less while emphasizing the importance of controlling your open time.
MW

:???: :???: :???: Your post makes little to no sense.... What kind of medicinal medicines are you practicing there MW?? :bday:

Not being nosy, but do you raise cattle?


Justin