What to do with open cows?

[medicinewoman]

ANAZAZI

Seriously; I think

Thank you I do appreciate that.

As a woman I think I may be a little more familiar with the female reproductive process then most men, so please hear me out.
It is not uncommon for a woman to be either early or late getting her period.
Nor is it uncommon for her to deliver her baby either early or late.

All I am saying is, there is a variance to a 21 day heat cycle and a 283 day gestation time with cows, the same as there is with woman, that must be taken into consideration when setting a short breeding season ( 60 days ) which can start immediately after the first birth.
And there is a variance between the cows as to when they give birth and their first cycle after giving birth, which must also be considered.
And last and most important, if you used a 60 day breeding cycle last year to produce this years calves, then you entire herd will already be spread over 60 days when calved out.

So, if you start your breeding season ( 60 days ) in the middle of your calving season ( 30 days ) when only half your cows have given birth and pull the bull from the cows in total of 60 days, at least 30% of your herd will not be breed.

Now here is how we calculated it back when we believed there was a financial gain in having a one time yearly uniformed calf crop.

Variances = 14 days
Recuperation and recycle time = 30 days ( with variances 44 days )
Herd spread = 60 days.
For a total of 104 days , which puts it over the 82 days available to accomplish all of the above if you are going to produce 1 calf per year.
Leaving us 22 days past being able to produce a 100% 1 calf per year crop.

So we extended our breeding season to 90 days to make up for the 22 days we needed to get down to the 84 days available to produce 1 calf per year and have a once a year calf crop, while at the same time limiting our open times.

The bulls were introduced to the cows 45 days after the first calf hit the ground and removed 90 days later resulting in a 95% calving rate within the 90 day calving season for that year.
Calves were sold in two lots 90 days apart with lighter calves in both lots to lower the average lot weight which resulted in a higher price per pound for the heavier calves.

10 of the best performing cow's heifer calves were retained as replacement heifers in an attempt to lower breed back time even further .
MW

 

[dun]

We must be doing it all wrong. Breeding starts late May and it's done by the end of june including clean up. These year we had one cow that was 2 weeks early and a couple that were way late and still got done calving in 45 days.

 

[IluvABbeef]

ANAZAZI

Seriously; I think

Thank you I do appreciate that.

As a woman I think I may be a little more familiar with the female reproductive process then most men, so please hear me out.
It is not uncommon for a woman to be either early or late getting her period.
Nor is it uncommon for her to deliver her baby either early or late.

All I am saying is, there is a variance to a 21 day heat cycle and a 283 day gestation time with cows, the same as there is with woman, that must be taken into consideration when setting a short breeding season ( 60 days ) which can start immediately after the first birth.
And there is a variance between the cows as to when they give birth and their first cycle after giving birth, which must also be considered.
And last and most important, if you used a 60 day breeding cycle last year to produce this years calves, then you entire herd will already be spread over 60 days when calved out.

So, if you start your breeding season ( 60 days ) in the middle of your calving season ( 30 days ) when only half your cows have given birth and pull the bull from the cows in total of 60 days, at least 30% of your herd will not be breed.

Now here is how we calculated it back when we believed there was a financial gain in having a one time yearly uniformed calf crop.

Variances = 14 days
Recuperation and recycle time = 30 days ( with variances 44 days )
Herd spread = 60 days.
For a total of 104 days , which puts it over the 82 days available to accomplish all of the above if you are going to produce 1 calf per year.
Leaving us 22 days past being able to produce a 100% 1 calf per year crop.

So we extended our breeding season to 90 days to make up for the 22 days we needed to get down to the 84 days available to produce 1 calf per year and have a once a year calf crop, while at the same time limiting our open times.

The bulls were introduced to the cows 45 days after the first calf hit the ground and removed 90 days later resulting in a 95% calving rate within the 90 day calving season for that year.
Calves were sold in two lots 90 days apart with lighter calves in both lots to lower the average lot weight which resulted in a higher price per pound for the heavier calves.

10 of the best performing cow's heifer calves were retained as replacement heifers in an attempt to lower breed back time even further .
MW

Why so many technicalities?? :???: :???: Why not just keep it simple and accept the fact that producers are more than capable of keeping a 60-day (or even a 45-day) breeding/calving season without having to get all mixed up in so many frikkin technicalities?? Honestly! :roll:

:deadhorse:

 

[ANAZAZI]

ANAZAZI

Seriously; I think

That makes one of us.
Thank you I do appreciate that.

As a woman I think I may be a little more familiar with the female reproductive process then most men, so please hear me out.
It is not uncommon for a woman to be either early or late getting her period.
Nor is it uncommon for her to deliver her baby either early or late.

All I am saying is, there is a variance to a 21 day heat cycle and a 283 day gestation time with cows, the same as there is with woman, that must be taken into consideration when setting a short breeding season ( 60 days ) which can start immediately after the first birth.
And there is a variance between the cows as to when they give birth and their first cycle after giving birth, which must also be considered.
And last and most important, if you used a 60 day breeding cycle last year to produce this years calves, then you entire herd will already be spread over 60 days when calved out.

So, if you start your breeding season ( 60 days ) in the middle of your calving season ( 30 days ) when only half your cows have given birth and pull the bull from the cows in total of 60 days, at least 30% of your herd will not be breed.

Now here is how we calculated it back when we believed there was a financial gain in having a one time yearly uniformed calf crop.

Variances = 14 days
Recuperation and recycle time = 30 days ( with variances 44 days )
Herd spread = 60 days.
For a total of 104 days , which puts it over the 82 days available to accomplish all of the above if you are going to produce 1 calf per year.
Leaving us 22 days past being able to produce a 100% 1 calf per year crop.

So we extended our breeding season to 90 days to make up for the 22 days we needed to get down to the 84 days available to produce 1 calf per year and have a once a year calf crop, while at the same time limiting our open times.

The bulls were introduced to the cows 45 days after the first calf hit the ground and removed 90 days later resulting in a 95% calving rate within the 90 day calving season for that year.
Calves were sold in two lots 90 days apart with lighter calves in both lots to lower the average lot weight which resulted in a higher price per pound for the heavier calves.

10 of the best performing cow's heifer calves were retained as replacement heifers in an attempt to lower breed back time even further .
MW

Regarding the length of the cycle, it would likely become more irregular if cows were left open for several years.

The calving would not be spread out so much because most cows tend to calve in the beginning of the calving period.
I would not start breeding season until 90 days after the first calving, why would you assume something else? This means that the best part of the herd (the early calvers, some 70% of the herd) have between 90 and 69 days to get ready for the start of the breeding season and 150 to 129 days until the end of the breeding season.
The second group (they are fewer, 20% of the herd, and less desireable in a keep/cull perspective) will have 68 to 48 days to the start of breeding season (enough time for most beef cows to get ready) and between 128 to 108 days until the end of breeding season.
Basically, 90% have a good chance to calve early next year, and the other 10% still have time because the breeding period is so long.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Now, if I wanted to shorten the open time, :For example by30 days, I would just release the bull 30 days earlier and still keep the 60 day breeding season. the calves would come in the beginning of the season anyways, and the later calvers would have sixty days more to get pregnant. Those subfertile would then calve later each year and be culled, but most of the herd would keep up. This system would not fit all climates.

 

[medicinewoman]

Dun,

Breeding starts late May and it's done by the end of june including clean up.

I will call that a 45 day breeding season.

And how many days (time) pasted from the time the first calf hit the ground and you put the bull with the cows?
And is your calving season the same time each year?
What is your production goal that you can use such a short breeding season?
Why that is so fantastic it's almost unbelievable. Job well done.
MW

 

[hillsdown]

Dun,

Breeding starts late May and it's done by the end of june including clean up.

I will call that a 45 day breeding season.

And how many days (time) pasted from the time the first calf hit the ground and you put the bull with the cows?
And is your calving season the same time each year?
What is your production goal that you can use such a short breeding season?
Why that is so fantastic it's almost unbelievable. Job well done.
MW

As a woman I find your condescending attitude insulting, . You are telling experienced beef/dairy/men/women who run an 85 % AI operation how cows cycle . You must be joking , seriously ! If you are a reincarnation, like all of us believe ,job well done . :roll: Seriously !

 

[medicinewoman]

hillsdown

I am a reincarnation of no one and I am here because I thought this was a professional board where I could possibly learn something from other professionals and pass on some of what I have already learned to others.

If this is not what this board is about, please let me know and I will be happy to go else where.
And I don't like your condescending attitude either. Grow up!
MW

 

[SSGenetics]

hillsdown

I am a reincarnation of no one and I am here because I thought this was a professional board where I could possibly learn something from other professionals and pass on some of what I have already learned to others.

If this is not what this board is about, please let me know and I will be happy to go else where.
And I don't like your condescending attitude either. Grow up!
MW

medoicinewoman,

You want to learn something? Do a little less reading and a lot more ranching..... :roll:

 

[cross_7]

Okay, part of the problem I've inherited with the herd I'm now helping to manage is many open cows because of the lack of care from the last bozo. Anyway, we have mostly and want a fall calving herd. Right now we have 173 cows (am going to increase that number) and 53 are open! We're thinking to put bulls back in with the open cows for 60 days and sell them as short bred cows
(the ones that breed) and replace with heavy bred fall calving cows. I know they all won't breed back but I'm sure many didn't because of their poor condition--they are in much better condition than 4 months ago. Thoughts.

i don't think there will be a lot of difference in price between open and short bred.
you didn't say what quality or the age of the open cows or what replacements cost in your area, but if they are good young cows it might be cheaper to hold them over till next year when you figure what good young cows will cost to replace them.

if they are older and you are going to have to replace them in a couples years anyway and you can buy good replacemnets worth the money then i'd sell them open.

 

[pappy6]

I may have missed it in reading thru...when does your fall calving begin? Assuming Oct 1, and I am also in the southern-mid TN area, would it not work for you to move the opens and immediately buy back some 4-5 mo bred cows. A lot of the barns are having monthly stock cow sales with some complete dispersals due to record prices, but local buyers are wanting pairs or long bred with a big dropoff to these cows. Good luck, just my :2cents: ...pappy

 

[dun]

Dun,

Breeding starts late May and it's done by the end of june including clean up.

I will call that a 45 day breeding season.

And how many days (time) pasted from the time the first calf hit the ground and you put the bull with the cows?
And is your calving season the same time each year?
What is your production goal that you can use such a short breeding season?
Why that is so fantastic it's almost unbelievable. Job well done.
MW

I've never calculated the days from the start of calving till the start of breeding. Until a couple of years ago we did 100% AI. Our goal is to calve in a short calving season so we have a larger set of uniform calves to sell or retain heifers. Acow gets 2 bites at the apple, if she doesn;t settle she grows weheels. Since we've been doing it this way for the 15 years since we moved to MO, now we have very few that don;t settle. We also manage the grass and don't supplement (except during drought times). It isn;t rocket science, managment and recording keeping keeps us on top of things.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

It is very simple to have a 60 day calving season. You mark the calendar the same date each & every year - bull in/bull out (or AI starts & finishes) for 60 days. Not rocket science.

 

[SRBeef]

...Our goal is to calve in a short calving season so we have a larger set of uniform calves to sell or retain heifers. Acow gets 2 bites at the apple, if she doesn;t settle she grows weheels. Since we've been doing it this way for the 15 years since we moved to MO, now we have very few that don;t settle. We also manage the grass and don't supplement (except during drought times). It isn;t rocket science, managment and recording keeping keeps us on top of things.

This ought to be on a wall plaque or poster. Thank you.

In my rotational grazing system it is much easier to leave my bulls in with the cows from bull-in day in June until late December. I don't have the facilities to keep bulls separate for 300 days per year. And the bulls are a lot happier in with the cows even after all are bred.

However as you said Dun, the cow gets two cycles to get bred. They get preg checked at weaning in Oct and anything open is sold immediately so I don't need to feed them purchased hay. But anything bred that calves more than 45-50 days after the first calf is born will be sold as a pair. But I haven't had any of those yet. Culling opens as soon as discovered (by my very accurate vet) keeps a fertile herd.

" It isn;t rocket science, managment and recording keeping keeps us on top of things" (Dun)

I like that way of putting it. Thank you.

Jim

 

[dun]

I don't have the facilities to keep bulls separate for 300 days per year. And the bulls are a lot happier in with the cows even after all are bred.Jim

We don;t either. They get pulled the end of June and run in a separate pasture till weaning then they're put back in iwht the bred cows till early february. Then we pull them and eaither put them in a spearate pasture (if the pipes aren;t freezing) or a bull pen up by the barn if they are. We're solving the bull storage problem this year. Looks like our older bull and the yearling are both sold. Since we've cut down so far on the number of cows we're going back to 100% AI.

 

[medicinewoman]

Karin

Hi Kerin, you wouldn't be the same Kerin over on http://en.allexperts.com/q/Cows-Cattle- ... 119399.htm , would you?
If so you might be pleased to hear some of my students have referenced you as a source on some of my required papers, as some have done with this board.

Yes, not only do I have my degree from the big U I also teach there and I am a 3rd generation sh-- kicken farm girl.

Why so many technicalities??

I would hardly call a mathematical impossibility being "frikkin" technical!!

You do the math!
Here is out goal and we have only one cow.
To produce 1 calf per calendar year on Oct. 1. Each and every year. ( which is what Tncattle is trying to do while trying to solve his open cow time )

I will accept the rule of thumb of 21 day cycling time and a 283 day gestation time with no variations.
You my set the recoperation time.

Our one cow calved on Oct. 1 2011 and your breeding time begins as you can only breed an open cow.
When would you put your bull in to produce an Oct 1 2012 calf ?
What was your open cow time?
MW

 

[fitz]

...Our goal is to calve in a short calving season so we have a larger set of uniform calves to sell or retain heifers. Acow gets 2 bites at the apple, if she doesn;t settle she grows weheels. Since we've been doing it this way for the 15 years since we moved to MO, now we have very few that don;t settle. We also manage the grass and don't supplement (except during drought times). It isn;t rocket science, managment and recording keeping keeps us on top of things.

In my rotational grazing system it is much easier to leave my bulls in with the cows from bull-in day in June until late December. I don't have the facilities to keep bulls separate for 300 days per year. And the bulls are a lot happier in with the cows even after all are bred.



Jim

We use a similar method. Bull will go to Spring calving cows approx. 05/25. Will stay with that group until put with Fall calving group around 11/25. It does seem to keep everyone content. Just looked back on this year's Spring calves. All came in a 35 day window with (1) 2 week early exception. Last fall had one 60 days behind the group. She's gone.

fitz

 

[angus9259]

Acow gets 2 bites at the apple, if she doesn;t settle she grows weheels.

Ever have that "favorite cow" that you gave 3 bites to???

 

[dun]

Acow gets 2 bites at the apple, if she doesn;t settle she grows weheels.

Ever have that "favorite cow" that you gave 3 bites to???

We had a heifer that I AIed early then she went to the vet s daughter who showed her throw July. When she came home she had a heat so I AIed her and she calved real late from that, the next year she calved within the first week of calving season. This year she was the first one to start cycling.

 

[medicinewoman]

Dun,

I would attribute her erratic behavior to stress as show life can be very stressful on cattle.

Although she may appear in perfect physical condition, emotionally she is not from being taken away from her herd environment and being reconditioned to do things that don't come naturally to her.
Show life for a heifer is far more stressful then being weaned on wheels and shipped through an action house, which often causes shipping fever.
As show life is generally a much longer period of time it can even cause them to abort.

I have seen many cases of aborted fetuses in heifers within 30 days from being rounded up and worked that I attributed to nothing more than rough handling.

MW