Culling Bred Cows?

[Warren Allison]

@Warren Allison Commercial medium frame, red angus cows, 3-4 years old, bull is Hereford mix, not registered.

Heck, even down here where black is king, I don't see how they wouldn't bring more than the $1250 you are asking. If you need to conserve hay, I'd have them at the next sale in your area. I think you will end up being plesantly surprised at what they go for!

 

[wbvs58]

Perhaps the local Ag college who took our highschool ag students on a field day and discussed the shipping of "heavy bred cattle" was "rooted in some very bad experiences and/or misinformation"?

Perhaps…bad experiences but not misinformation given the fact one of these "incidents" was physically witnessed that day and brought the "heavy bred cattle" in the chain to light and made all the producers and students take note. Again "heavy bred cattle" was mentioned during the humane loading/transport segment and perhaps knowing what we all witnessed in our "back door tour" that day the trucker drummed the point home with his 50 years of experience. "Heavy bred cattle" also came up in the feedlot/finishing conversation with the veterinarian that afternoon. And in Animal health and welfare as it relates to "heavy bred cattle"and their special considerations at their most vulnerable time in life!

Happily, I agree it is not the norm but this was a thread that opened the door to the discussion. I assume, by asking, libertygarden is intent on doing the right thing. My opinion highlighted the dark side of "unload". The responsibility of "unload". That field day shed a whole light on responsibility at every level of the chain on every person there. If this scenario was the norm Brute23 every female would be ultrasounded…they are not for economic reasons and frankly that is not fool proof. Also the assumption/trust that producers at each level are doing our best to keep "heavy breds" out of the chain still holds like a promise.

But there are ones that are missed accidentally, inadvertently or sadly on purpose! And this is a side/opinion of the discussion that is unpleasant. Being a"beginners board" conversation I felt sharing our"beginner lesson" that day important…it left a lasting impression on the experienced, the learning and shed light on perspectives seldom shared because it is so dark, negative, sad and unfortunate. And thankfully rare but it only takes one bad decision to upset the cart!

Do right by your females! If these girls should have calved roughly 4 months ago the owner previous to libertygarden failed…Just saying…had they been more transparent or due diligent perhaps libertygarden wouldn't be in this mess/conundrum today. Just an opinion and food for thought…

"IS IT FIT TO LOAD"

Ken

 

[MurraysMutts]

@Warren Allison Commercial medium frame, red angus cows, 3-4 years old, bull is Hereford mix, not registered.

I apologize.

I thought u were selling OLD cows.
You'll do well with them either way! Cows like that are 1500 and up around here. At a special sale over 2000

 

[StrojanHerefords]

People may not like what I have to say but I will say anyways…animal welfare imo is forefront. "Heavy bred cattle" should not be put through the stress of an Auction Mart. Like TCRanch said they often end up as slaughter and in our neck of woods unfair long transport distances for cattle to the packers in that condition.

I know truckers hauling who have had cows such as yours calving in the liner, en route, calf trampled, cow not much better on arrival. I have also been around the stockyards when others have made the same decision and the cow is calving on the cement or in an alley in the yards, running through the sale with afterbirth and a wet calf or missing the sale completely or the owner with a vet bill cause staff are not dealing with the situation and turns out to be a dystocia when they have a sale to run.

A sure way to give your farm a bad reputation with the local auction mart. A sure way to leave a sour taste in the mouth of some do-gooder looking to point a finger at the husbandry and ethics of the beef farmer.

Find a private buyer like bird dog and let poor timing and a prior bad decision "die" out of the limelight and in a more humane manner...find a buyer where there is no added stress of the auction and where transportation is suitable for "heavy in calf" cattle.

Granted happens we all want to escape but to shove it off on someone else and pocket your money is imo unethical! Again…not what people want to hear

Farm Family, if I may ask why did you choose to identify yourself in that way? Many of us here were born into of farming families and have been around livestock and sale barns for generations. We don't need to go to class to learn about how sale barns work. A sale barn is as good of a place to deal with a difficult calving as anywhere. The cows are in small pens and being closely watched and much of the time a veterinarian is already there.
Life isn't always beautiful and those of us who are making a go of making a living farming have to make money.

 

[Double R Ranch]

I would ship them. Doesn't sound like they are getting close at the moment to calving (bagging up n gettin sloppy) or you probably wouldn't be thinking about shipping them. Bred cows are going for a good price. Someone who has feed will probably buy them and calve them out. Especially if they are younger. Broken mouth is more of a chance for slaughter but young usually do well. I agree on finding a bred cow sale being an even better sale if possible.

 

[wbvs58]

Farm Family, if I may ask why did you choose to identify yourself in that way? Many of us here were born into of farming families and have been around livestock and sale barns for generations. We don't need to go to class to learn about how sale barns work. A sale barn is as good of a place to deal with a difficult calving as anywhere. The cows are in small pens and being closely watched and much of the time a veterinarian is already there.
Life isn't always beautiful and those of us who are making a go of making a living farming have to make money.

If you want to go on making a living from farming animal welfare needs to be taken seriously. It is not just about what is right or wrong, it is about how things are perceived to the outside world. There are plenty of people around ready to take photos of anything that is not pretty and use to further their cause.

Ken

 

[libertygarden]

This is how the story ended. I culled a 4 year old cow and her 6 month heifer (private sale the heifer, the cow went to the barn), and a 3-4 year old cow and her 3 month old heifer, also at the barn.

I've visited both barns in Paris, TX and spoken to the owners. They are reputable people with very nice handling facilities and vets on site. I doubt that if I had sent the heavy bred cows to either barn that they would have end-up as ground beef. I kept the bred cows because I want to have something to sell around August and I like their body frame. The cows I sold, the first was skittish and didn't raise good calves; the second had too much leg so I figured with a 3 month heifer by her side she would at least bring in $1600. I'll know when I get the check.

Profit is a wonderful motivation that funnels everyone to make the right decisions. There is little money in sending young healthy cows like the ones I sold to the packers. The barn knows it and so do the buyers. It's a very efficient operation that prices livestock where its most profitable for all parties, including the cows.

 

[Dave]

This is a good time of the year to sell heavy breds. Especially young cows. Waiting until after they calf will require waiting another 2 to 4 weeks. Because pairs with very young calves sell for less than bred cows. Most people don't want the risk of a wet naval calf that has gone through the sale not to mention the risk in hauling a real young calf. Here right now young heavy bred cows are $1,800-$2,200. The same cow with a calf at her side is only about $200 more. Is it worth the additional time, feed, and risk to make $200?

 

[Farm Family]

Farm Family, if I may ask why did you choose to identify yourself in that way? Many of us here were born into of farming families and have been around livestock and sale barns for generations. We don't need to go to class to learn about how sale barns work. A sale barn is as good of a place to deal with a difficult calving as anywhere. The cows are in small pens and being closely watched and much of the time a veterinarian is already there.
Life isn't always beautiful and those of us who are making a go of making a living farming have to make money.

I am not sure what you are asking me? "Choose to identify myself in that way"? I assume "Farm Family"? Not sure…Anyways…For your information we too make a living farming. We too have a family farm. I am not new to this industry! Not an expert but been around the agriculture block! I understand "generations"…maybe not the same as others on this board and I certainly do not have all the experience, I am sure others on this board have, but I still have a right to my opinion based on my personal experience. You are welcome to challenge the opinion but to insinuate that what I said is a non-reality or accusing farmers because I don't measure to your standards is curious. And it begs me to question who is accusing who of living an always "beautiful life". I am a huge advocate of the beef industry, farmers and agriculture my post did not come from a place of pointing fingers…or that was certainly not my intent.

The question was "Yes or No: Take Heavy Bred Cows to Market?" And I have zero issue saying that in my opinion let your heavy breds calve before you send them to market! Or find a new home ready for their condition! (heavy bred to me is calving any day). And I backed that opinion with real situations I have seen, experienced, been taught about etc. And I said "not what people want to hear" because clearly with the backlash I have received it is uncomfortable to say that sometimes we don't represent our industry well and sometimes we let the drive for money sell us short…my comments were more we can do better. And maybe one way of doing better is considering when and how our heavy breds go to market!

My opinion is we do not ship our heavy bred cattle because of the examples I gave, the that can go down (we think she is open and she is not or she calves 14 days before we thought)! We, as farmers should advocate and yes, teach these realities!

I would hope it is not normally established "family generational should know better" operations that make these imo "poor" decisions but beginners who don't know their cattle are too far along to ship or have never considered the consequences should be told! You are more than welcome to ship your heavy breds…clearly many do!

As for making money…I know all too well those challenges! Guess I am the foolish one for putting animal welfare before my pocketbook and well that could explain a few things but I answer to my conscious and integrity and well to the creator! I rather calve her out, sell as a pair or calve her out graft the calf, if my cull reason is her ability to wean the calf she carries, and then sell the cow, burger her, whatever than take a chance my heavy bred calves at the most inappropriate time!

I personally feel that animal welfare is a consideration and we farmers should be responsible about those public concerns, those reality issues. If you want to unload heavy breds you can, no one says you cannot! I personally feel there are better methods than the auction mart!

As an industry and livestock producers we should be mature enough to discuss issues surrounding husbandry, animal welfare and scruples! Classtime over

 

[Farm Family]

If you want to go on making a living from farming animal welfare needs to be taken seriously. It is not just about what is right or wrong, it is about how things are perceived to the outside world. There are plenty of people around ready to take photos of anything that is not pretty and use to further their cause.

Ken

Thank you for saying…in many less words than me.

 

[MurraysMutts]

Thank you for saying…in many less words than me.

I like the idea of which u speak.
However, to me, and lots of folks....
Heavy bred is anything over 6 months. If I knew a cow was due now, no way would I haul her, except an emergency

 

[Brute 23]

(heavy bred to me is calving any day)

To most people the term "heavy bred" means the cow is with in 3 months of calving. That's why so many people will disagree with you when you say a HB should not go to market.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

At a basic level to have a discussion, we need to be respond to the discussion at hand. The original poster said that he bought the cows as pairs in August of 2022 and exposed them to start calving around August of 2023 and he thought that those cows might calve in a week or a month. Family Farm, you anonymously came into this discussion and was critical of anybody selling heavy bred cows because you invented a new definition of heavy bred. Furthermore had you looked at the timeline of when the cows were supposed to calve it would have been obvious that the cows were not bred when they were purchased.
I take a seriously animal welfare activism but I also recognize that the greater issue is threat to our livelihoods is within. We need to realize that activism is an industry that will never be satisfied. They will just find another thing wrong with what we are doing to stay in business. All concessions to activist interests are encouragement for the activists to become more emboldened. Remember that Neville Chamberlain and Winston Churchill were both Tories.
"The opposition occupies the benches in front of you, but the enemy sits behind you."

— Winston Churchill

 

[Farm Family]

Family Farm, you anonymously came into this discussion and was critical of anybody selling heavy bred cows because you invented a new definition of heavy bred. Furthermore had you looked at the timeline of when the cows were supposed to calve it would have been obvious that the cows were not bred when they were purchased.

I was going to let sleeping dogs lie but seriously…"anonymously came into the discussion?" I posted the same day the question was asked Jan. 11th, 2024. In fact I posted 10 days before YOU. Jan. 22nd, 2024 was your first post on the subject! 10 days in…So let's speak some truth on "coming into the discussion" and "looking at the timeline" please!

All the original question post told us is they were purchased in 8/22 as pairs, suggests they were rebred and should have calved with his others 4 months ago. The original post goes on to say: "They can drop a calf next week or next month, I can't tell"

I am not certain what "drop calf next week or next month" means to you? Perhaps others missed that "drop calf next week or next month" I did not! That comment concerns me and I highlighted issues with not knowing for certain and just unloading and hoping for the best.

I did not "invent a new definition of heavy bred"…the person clearly suggests he is not sure of their gestation and by his own words could calve in the next 30 days thus "Is it worth it to wait for the cows another 30 days, feed hay through winter, and sell in March as a cow/calf pair or should I just send them now and cut my losses?" Coupled with "drop calf next week or next month"…nothing to invent with those statements!

I do not want to make waves or be confrontational but I will defend myself…your response and final words on this subject offends my integrity. Have a nice day @StrojanHerefords.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

Now, we have a redefinition of the term, pair. A pair doesn't imply that the cow is bred that term is a three in one.
A larger issue is that you, Farm Family, don't know how long a cow gestates. Libertygarden said he expected calves four months before January of 2024 which would be September of 2023. A cows gestation is a little over 9 months which would mean any bred cow purchased in August of 2022 would have to calve by May of 2023.

 

[Ebenezer]

I do not know how anyone with cows cannot look at a cow and not know that she is close to calving. Even within a month. This deal of not selling a bred cow "because" is amazingly shallow. They sell them every week at the barns. If you are too slow, they sell cows with a calf by the side. The most useful tool any livestock person can use is culling. So why hamper needed culling with some goodie two shoes idea? Roll 'em, roll 'em, roll 'em

 

[Dave]

There is a big time Hereford breeder here. He runs several hundred commercial black and BWF cows that he uses to test the genetic of his Hereford bulls. Last week he sold 20 or so of these commercial cows. They were broken mouth and I am sure culled for age. They were 7 & 8 months bred. He could have sold them last fall when they came down out of the hills. At that point they most like would have all gone to slaughter. By holding them those extra couple months they went back to the country to people planning on getting another calf or two out of them. And he got a lot more money.

 

[CowboyRam]

There is a big time Hereford breeder here. He runs several hundred commercial black and BWF cows that he uses to test the genetic of his Hereford bulls. Last week he sold 20 or so of these commercial cows. They were broken mouth and I am sure culled for age. They were 7 & 8 months bred. He could have sold them last fall when they came down out of the hills. At that point they most like would have all gone to slaughter. By holding them those extra couple months they went back to the country to people planning on getting another calf or two out of them. And he got a lot more money.

I wish I had done that with my bred culls.

 

[libertygarden]

Well, the cows look a lot bigger than they looked on Jan 11 when posted this thread, but still no calves.

So when I got them in early August 2022, they were sacks of bones with calves on the side. If you recall, 2022 was when everyone was selling herds in Texas due to the drought: so no grass and crappy hay that winter. One dropped a calf in late October 2022, the rest were not bred. The cows were dry and the calves weren't much to look at. I sold the calves in Jan 2023 once they got more weight. I got 70% of my money back. I was counting on the cows getting bred again by December once they put on weight, so I was expecting them calve by September/October, 2023. I n hind sight I should have sold them then. Now, I'll wait for the calves to drop, and sell the cows and calves once they wean. There is no point to selling them as pairs in March just before all the grass comes out. I rather wait until August 2024 to sell both.