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delta 88":2rilot6f said:
Jovid, if you read the History of the Red Angus breed on their website, they acknowledge that there was probably some Shorthorn blood introduced back in the 1700's to early 1800's in the foundation animals of both the current Red and Black Angus breeds.

Most of the Red Angus animals that I have seen have light colored noses and some sort of hint of white to their switch. I would guess that the light nose comes with the red color for the most part, although I have seen a few red calves with dark noses. I seriously doubt if it is from some breeders using your great Red Polls within the Red Angus genepool. Of the pictures that I have seen of Red Polls, there is a difference in some animals as far as how much white is in the switch of them too if I am not mistaken.

I'm not sure what BRG did/said to you to try to knock his cattle and the Red Angus breed as a whole by trying to insinuate that there are Red Polls that have been infused into the Red Angus genepool, but he has always been very helpful to us and has been nothing but nice. If anything, I would wonder if the opposite has happened before, that AR genes have been "added" to the Red Poll gene pool.

I don't believe I said a thing about BRGs cattle. As a matter of fact I think he has some of the best cattle I have seen on here. You are the one that is rather defensive over that fact that I indicated that some of the Red Angus have white switches which would not be normal if a Red Angus is the same as a Black Angus except for the color of the hide.

I don't believe there is anyone that can say any breed is pure. I wouldn't even say that about Red Polls but I will say that it is more likely that there is more Red Poll genes in Red Angus than there are Red Angus genes in Red Poll.
 
Jovid":3o8ieroe said:
ALACOWMAN":3o8ieroe said:
seems this Herman Purdy feller is of no use either, with his stance on it http://redangus.org/association/history :cowboy:


I actually asked Herman face to face one day in Louisville at the NAILE. He didn't have an answer. All he said was that he never really thought about it.
i guess you could say they came from the same origin and be correct to some degree... i know some ''folks"" that have the same parents but their children vary in color
 
I've noticed in our Red Angus that the dark cherry red animals have the brighter pink noses and the white switches. The lighter colored ones have an almost black tinge to the area around the nose and blacker tails. I asked the animal science genetics professor back in college about it, he didn't have a good answer either.
 
The "pureness" of a breed only goes as far as "how long have the cattle in such breed been bred from the same lines of similar phenotype cattle". There were no Aberdeen Angus in Eden, even though some on here might like to think so. :D Just kiddin'! ... not really :cowboy:

So... from this source http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bjjennin/angus.html I have gleaned the following:

Early Scottish Cattle. Although little is known about the early origin of the cattle that later became known as the Aberdeen-Angus breed, it is thought that the improvement of the original stock found in the area began in the last half of the 18th century. The cattle found in northern Scotland were not of uniform color, and many of the cattle of the early days had varied color markings or broken color patterns. Many of the cattle were polled, but some few had horns. The characteristics we commonly call polled was often referred to in the old Scottish writings by the terms of "humble," "doddies," "humlies," or "homyl."

Founder: If any one person can be singled out as the founder of a breed of livestock, Hugh Watson of Keillor, who lived in the vale of Strathmore in Angus, is worthy of that distinction. If not the first real improver of Aberdeen-Angus cattle, he was certainly the most systematic and successful. Both his father and grandfather had been buyers and breeders of the Angus doddies. The family is known to have owned cattle as early as 1735. Hugh Watson was born in 1789 and, in 1808, at the time he was 19 years of age, he became a tenant at Keillor.

When Hugh Watson started his farming activities at Keillor, he received from his father's herd six of the best and blackest cows, as well as a bull. That same summer, he visited some of the leading Scottish cattle markets and purchased the 10 best heifers and the best bull that he could find that showed characteristics of the Angus cattle that he was striving to breed. The females were of various colors, but the bull was black; Watson decided that the color of his herd should be black and he started selecting in that direction.

As far as Shorthorn being in the mix: "It is often suggested that some Shorthorn blood found its way into the Aberdeen-Angus breed prior to the time the Herd Book was closed. Alexander Keith, secretary of the Aberdeen-Angus Cattle Society from 1944 to 1955, takes exception to this opinion by writing:

The statement has been frequently made that shorthorn blood was introduced into the Aberdeen-Angus breed at an early stage of its existence. There is no foundation whatever for such a statement." So, there probably is a little. :mrgreen:

At any rate, the Red Angus breed was founded from those black animals that still carried a red gene after selective black breeding since the 1700's. There is no reason that the gene for a white switch couldn't be in the woodpile as well, coming from those original broken colored cows. RA as a breed still have cattle that show up with excessive white (some of the Category II's), we just breed away from it.

If you study RA crossbreds closely you will note that the paler nose is very dominant. As an example check out the calves on this website:http://www.ankenmanranch.com/crossbreeding.htm. The black nose seems to run in certain family lines, such as the Hobos.

I have procrastinated doing chores long enough. Cheers. :wave:
 
i read that the shorthorn had became popular and was used pretty extensively that the the black was becoming extinct before they saved em,, and brought em back... no doubt shorthorn got a pretty good influence in them then
 
Aside from all of the comments regarding purity and color...... some darn good looking bulls. Have always thought you had some of the best looking cattle around from the pictures and videos I have seen.
 
Angus In Texas":3n3csunp said:
Aside from all of the comments regarding purity and color...... some darn good looking bulls. Have always thought you had some of the best looking cattle around from the pictures and videos I have seen.

Thanks everyone for the positive comments!!! Really appreciate it!
 
Jovid, last time I walked through the Red Poll aisle at Louisville, it seemed like there were differing amounts of white in the switch of some of those animals. I never really thought much about it until you brought it all up though. I bet you can find some dark noses too. You sure can in most of the other red breeds. I seem to remember some differences in the shade of red on some of those cattle too. Do you think that maybe there is some Saler in those cattle to end up with such a dark red? If the dark red is natural, where did the light red one's come from?
 
delta 88":2nwvj60w said:
Jovid, last time I walked through the Red Poll aisle at Louisville, it seemed like there were differing amounts of white in the switch of some of those animals. I never really thought much about it until you brought it all up though. I bet you can find some dark noses too. You sure can in most of the other red breeds. I seem to remember some differences in the shade of red on some of those cattle too. Do you think that maybe there is some Saler in those cattle to end up with such a dark red? If the dark red is natural, where did the light red one's come from?

The different amount of white in a Red Poll switch is easy to explain. They don't start turning white till they are about a year of age. So the variance is due to the age. The older the animal the more the white. Haven't seen any dark nose Red Polls they are all light colored. If there was one it could not be registered as one of the breed requirements is a light colored nose.

Yes there are different shades of red just like all the red breeds.

So can you tell me why some Red Angus has a white switch and a light nose?
 
Jovid":lo4fbbk6 said:
delta 88":lo4fbbk6 said:
Jovid, last time I walked through the Red Poll aisle at Louisville, it seemed like there were differing amounts of white in the switch of some of those animals. I never really thought much about it until you brought it all up though. I bet you can find some dark noses too. You sure can in most of the other red breeds. I seem to remember some differences in the shade of red on some of those cattle too. Do you think that maybe there is some Saler in those cattle to end up with such a dark red? If the dark red is natural, where did the light red one's come from?

The different amount of white in a Red Poll switch is easy to explain. They don't start turning white till they are about a year of age. So the variance is due to the age. The older the animal the more the white. Haven't seen any dark nose Red Polls they are all light colored. If there was one it could not be registered as one of the breed requirements is a light colored nose.

Yes there are different shades of red just like all the red breeds.

So can you tell me why some Red Angus has a white switch and a light nose?
-

For the same subliminal genetic reasons that it takes 14 or 15 'different' genes to determine the agouti White coloration in the belly fur of Chinchillas! "Percentages" of Genetic inheritance factors are one determination of Dominance and Recessive traits. "NUMBERS" relating to the same traits are an entirely different Talking Point!

In the Genetic determination of 100,000 individual animals, the DNA markers will isolate a surprising variety of heretofor 'unsuspected' characteristics which could be apprised with criticism and rejection. To focus on miniscule factors and elements in the overall assessment of progeny performances occuring prior to the 7th or 8th Generations, and ascribe negative connotations to succeeding progeny is specious and deprecating.

The millions of man-hours and finances which have been expended in the improvement, development and refinement of Beef Cattle are testaments of man's efforts and dedication. Let's NOT disparage that work with needless and pointless arguing.

DOC HARRIS
 
Jovid":2llrthng said:
delta 88":2llrthng said:
Jovid, last time I walked through the Red Poll aisle at Louisville, it seemed like there were differing amounts of white in the switch of some of those animals. I never really thought much about it until you brought it all up though. I bet you can find some dark noses too. You sure can in most of the other red breeds. I seem to remember some differences in the shade of red on some of those cattle too. Do you think that maybe there is some Saler in those cattle to end up with such a dark red? If the dark red is natural, where did the light red one's come from?

The different amount of white in a Red Poll switch is easy to explain. They don't start turning white till they are about a year of age. So the variance is due to the age. The older the animal the more the white. Haven't seen any dark nose Red Polls they are all light colored. If there was one it could not be registered as one of the breed requirements is a light colored nose.

Yes there are different shades of red just like all the red breeds.

So can you tell me why some Red Angus has a white switch and a light nose?
I just don't see why there wouldn't be. Black is dominant and we don't know what other color genes may be under there just by looking. The red angus breed does not disqualify for nose color unless it is black with black around the eyes and anus then it is registered as a category II. As far as the tail switch it has always been there (it typically isn't white but blonde) and is a world wide phenomenon that is why no one has an answer. It is like wondering why not all red polls have a white tail? From the red poll site" Breed Characteristics
COLOR* - Any shade of red, deep to dark red preferred; the switch of the tail may be red, red
and white, or white. There may be a limited amount of natural (born) white on the underline back
of the navel."
 

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