Vets

[mischief]

Vet school is extremely competative-there are about 7-9 applicants for each position. It is not the schools that make it difficult to get in-it is the other students also wanting to become veterinarians. Just remember that physicians only study one species-veterinarians study many and are expected to be competant in treating all those!

 

[GMN]

I think its absolutely necessary to have a Good Vet involved with your dairy or beef operation, BUT in times like these we all have to be realistic, where we simply can not afford to have the Vet out for every little thing that goes wrong. Anymore its just for the most serious of emergencies.

The Vet we deal with is hurting right now too, no brainer really, farmers can't hardly pay their bills, sure can't afford to have the Vet out, or purchase medicines from them like they use to, its all just a viscious cycle right now, and it won't be changing if milk prices do not show an increase soon.

GMN

 

[milkmaid]

Two issues posed in this thread:

1. What vet school costs (which I can't see as any of us can do anything about)
2. Whether or not to involve a vet with your cow problems (why are we even arguing about this one???)

Vet school does cost a lot, my pre-vet roommate and I figured out once that with average tution costs for undergrad + vet school, it would take 12 years at approx. $50K gross income per year to pay that debt off. Some people graduate vet school with more than the $120K in debt, some with less. Some make it to the end debt-free. Still, for all a vet has to learn, do we expect vet school to be cheap? and should we expect to pay our vets less than minimum wage? Figure out the money you spend at the clinic vs. the amount of time you spend "visiting" with your vet (and don't forget to figure in the costs of the clinic building and equipment), and I dare say a lot of large animal vets would be better off working at Wally World.

Yes, I know y'all are thinking that you expect your vet(s) to have that DVM after their name because they love working with animals/helping animals, and it's true - but you don't expect your mechanic to work for free just because they love working on trucks, do you? When I have that DVM tacked after my name, yes I do understand the cattleman's point of view and the economics of it, but I have to have a roof over my head, food to eat, and a bed to sleep on at night too. I'll make my vet work as reasonably priced as I can, but I can't make a practice of working for free (no pun intended). Trust me, I do understand y'all's view; I'm at the top of the list of poor clients - I spend as little money at the clinic as I can, and I do as much vet work as I can (including stitches and surgery) on my own animals - but I don't expect my vet to help me for free, and if he's accidently undercharged me I have no problem with telling him about it. Have to keep my vet happy and in return he'll teach me everything I ask as cheaply as possible. BUT - a vet does need money too; all you folks with vets that work for free? many of them are older with no debt, kids grown up, own their home, don't require a huge income. Young vets are rarely in the same position.

In regards to involving vets - again, why is this even a discussion??? You've got neighboring ranchers, feed store employees, friend that's done pretty well raising calves - and yes they can give decent advice. They'll tell you that "X" product that you can get at "X" store works pretty well for treating "X" problem. They have no idea why, but 9 times out of 10 they do pretty good treating that problem with that product. Or you can go to a good large animal vet, who knows WHY "X" product works, can tell you other ways of treating "X" problem, and if you stay alert and ask questions, you may learn how to apply the reasons behind WHY to other problems, or expand on it to better treat that "X" problem.

For example, there's a lot of similarities behind the treatment for severe calf scours, grain overload, and fresh cows with digestive upset. Physiology is similar, the cause may not be the same but supportive therapy for all of them (often all that's neccessary) is very nearly the same. Use your vet, listen to him/her, and that little bit of money you spend may help you save a lot of cows with a wide variety of problems.

 

[larryshoat]

I understand vets wanting to make lots of money
But they can't do it off of small operations with commercial cattle.

What I would like to see is the equivalent of physicians assistants-- someone that knows cattle inside and out- but doesn't have the years and costs the vets have invested- working under a vets supervision and counsel.

My vet has these, vet tech's they're called. They have a certain amount of schooling, and are trained to be proficient at whatever proceedure that he wants them to perform. I don't know a lot about the details as far as training is concerned, but it does seem to work fairly well.

Larry

 

[Howdyjabo]

Vet techs can't make farm calls prescribe drugs and treat animals on their own- thats what I want.
Theres lots more common treatments that an educated (but not to the same degree as a vet)person can do- just as well as a vet but a whole lot cheaper.

 

[GMN]

Vet techs can't make farm calls prescribe drugs and treat animals on their own- thats what I want.
Theres lots more common treatments that an educated (but not to the same degree as a vet)person can do- just as well as a vet but a whole lot cheaper.

This is what I went to school for in WI, got my state license, but what I wanted to do and what a Vet would let a Tech do were 2 very different things. A Technician is really nothing more than a glorified office girl-Plus the pay sucked too!

GMN

 

[mnmtranching]

If I were a vet I would treat only pets. Wouldn't even have facilities for bovine :roll: Wouldn't make farm calls for any type cattle. Horses yup! :nod: Have the secretary take billing information [Visa would work] :clap: Before any advice given on anything. Charge most anything I want for treating the kitty or pony or puppy. I'd do OK. :compute: ;-)

 

[novaman]

If I were a vet I would treat only pets. Wouldn't even have facilities for bovine :roll: Wouldn't make farm calls for any type cattle. Horses yup! :nod: Have the secretary take billing information [Visa would work] :clap: Before any advice given on anything. Charge most anything I want for treating the kitty or pony or puppy. I'd do OK. :compute: ;-)

You would be doing exactly what most vets in my area are doing right now. Pet and horse owners tend to be hobby type people that will spends lots of money at the vet.

 

[SRBeef]

Interesting discussion in this thread but not much talk about the preventative medicine approach - one or two scheduled, whole-herd vet visits a year to keep them all healthy, preg check etc. Am I the only one who does this?

Funny my wife keeps telling me I need to get a doctor's check up and maybe dentist checkup/cleaning once a year for myself. I do have to admit I am better at getting it done with my cattle than with myself. But the approach is a good one. She is always right about this sort of stuff.... Jim

 

[GMN]

Interesting discussion in this thread but not much talk about the preventative medicine approach - one or two scheduled, whole-herd vet visits a year to keep them all healthy, preg check etc. Am I the only one who does this?

Funny my wife keeps telling me I need to get a doctor's check up and maybe dentist checkup/cleaning once a year for myself. I do have to admit I am better at getting it done with my cattle than with myself. But the approach is a good one. She is always right about this sort of stuff.... Jim

No you aren't the only one who gets herd health visits, although I think alot of us do some of these things ourselves to cut costs, such as vaccinations, worming, and some pregnancy detections, at least I do.

GMN

 

[Workinonit Farm]

- one or two scheduled, whole-herd vet visits a year to keep them all healthy, preg check etc. Am I the only one who does this?

No.

Most years I have mine out in the fall for an annual "herd-health" appoinment. At this time we go over my management practices, tweak whatever may need tweaking, preg checks, if its vaccine time they get vaccinated (90% of the time I provide the vaccines, he administers the injection) Bangs vaccines, and blood drawn for any tests that need to be done. And while he's here we also review my management with regards to my hogs and do whatever may need to be done with them. When all is said and done,with farm-call charge, time and any supplies I divide that amount of $$ by the amount of animals dealt/worked with and most of the time it works out to be under $12.00 per head.

I have the cows up and ready to go, hogs penned and ready and any other animals I want looked over penned and ready. We work together and it goes smoothly and in a timely fashion.

For me, personally and for my set-up, its well worth the few dollars per head and time well spent.

One more thing.....I would love to know how a person can end up with a $5,000.00 vet bill in one visit :shock: .

Oh yeah, my husband gets his annual physical (at the Dr.) and yet I cannot seem to get myself to a Dr. unless/until I break something or am incredibly sick or get Lyme. :roll: One of these days I'll do for myself what I see to it gets done for everyone else.

Katherine

 

[SRBeef]

- one or two scheduled, whole-herd vet visits a year to keep them all healthy, preg check etc. Am I the only one who does this?

No.

Most years I have mine out in the fall for an annual "herd-health" appoinment. At this time we go over my management practices, tweak whatever may need tweaking, preg checks, if its vaccine time they get vaccinated (90% of the time I provide the vaccines, he administers the injection) Bangs vaccines, and blood drawn for any tests that need to be done. And while he's here we also review my management with regards to my hogs and do whatever may need to be done with them. When all is said and done,with farm-call charge, time and any supplies I divide that amount of $$ by the amount of animals dealt/worked with and most of the time it works out to be under $12.00 per head.

I have the cows up and ready to go, hogs penned and ready and any other animals I want looked over penned and ready. We work together and it goes smoothly and in a timely fashion.

For me, personally and for my set-up, its well worth the few dollars per head and time well spent.

One more thing.....I would love to know how a person can end up with a $5,000.00 vet bill in one visit :shock: .

Oh yeah, my husband gets his annual physical (at the Dr.) and yet I cannot seem to get myself to a Dr. unless/until I break something or am incredibly sick or get Lyme. :roll: One of these days I'll do for myself what I see to it gets done for everyone else.

Katherine

Thanks Katherine and GMN. Now I don't feel quite so much out in left field. Now we need to schedule a checkup for ourselves.

I let my vet supply everything and his visits still come out at just about what yours do, $12-13/head per visit or about $25/year for both visits. Jim

 

[randiliana]

We do the same thing as you guys, just don't have the vet come out and do it for us. We buy the vaccine from him, but we do the injections. I do the preg checking. Cows get worked twice a year, in the spring they get vaccinated for BVD, IBR and PI3. In the fall they get preg checked and ivomeced. Calves get worked in the spring and are branded, dehorned, castrated, vaccinated with an 8-way and are given an injection of ivermectin. Any that we keep are worked in the fall and they get an 8-way and a shot for BVD, IBR and PI3, and they get pour on'd with ivomec as well. A lot of people in the area also run their cows through just before calving and give them a vaccination to prevent scours.

 

[mnmtranching]

We do the same thing as you guys, just don't have the vet come out and do it for us. We buy the vaccine from him, but we do the injections. I do the preg checking. Cows get worked twice a year, in the spring they get vaccinated for BVD, IBR and PI3. In the fall they get preg checked and ivomeced. Calves get worked in the spring and are branded, dehorned, castrated, vaccinated with an 8-way and are given an injection of ivermectin. Any that we keep are worked in the fall and they get an 8-way and a shot for BVD, IBR and PI3, and they get pour on'd with ivomec as well. A lot of people in the area also run their cows through just before calving and give them a vaccination to prevent scours.

This is close to the way all the cattle people I know do it. Supplies are bought on line or from livestock supply stores, sometimes from Vets.
I Haven't had a Vet bill in 10 years [except for pets] :roll:
One thing I've learned on these forums, I don't have any where near the cattle health problems that most of you appear to have or are worried about. Almost NEVER lose a critter.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

One thing I've learned on these forums, I don't have any where near the cattle health problems that most of you appear to have or are worried about. Almost NEVER lose a critter.

I realize that your statement is not towards anyone personally and I have not taken it as such.

For the record I have not needed the vet out for any health 'problems' (cows or hogs). The only health problems I've had in the last 10 years (that I can recall off the top of my head) has been primarily the occasional scours in a bottle calf, a case of mild mastitis in a long-gone Jersey, a broken rear leg in another long-gone Jersey (I shot her), a mild case of navel ill in another bottle calf and a calf pull that I did without the vet. Had one cow limping a few years ago, never did figure out why, she got well. Fortunately all these things I was able to handle without the man having to come out.

Vaccines, de-wormers and other general supplies I purchase from the co-op or catalog (Valley Vet or KV)

I figure by keeping the vet involved in my herd, limited as his involvement may be, its good for him and good for me. Anytime I've called with a question he's never charged me for it. If I call for a specific med that cannot be purchased OTC, he has no problem having it waiting for me to pick-up and I believe it is because of an 'established' relationship.

Katherine

 

[GMN]

One thing I've learned on these forums, I don't have any where near the cattle health problems that most of you appear to have or are worried about. Almost NEVER lose a critter.

I realize that your statement is not towards anyone personally and I have not taken it as such.

For the record I have not needed the vet out for any health 'problems' (cows or hogs). The only health problems I've had in the last 10 years (that I can recall off the top of my head) has been primarily the occasional scours in a bottle calf, a case of mild mastitis in a long-gone Jersey, a broken rear leg in another long-gone Jersey (I shot her), a mild case of navel ill in another bottle calf and a calf pull that I did without the vet. Had one cow limping a few years ago, never did figure out why, she got well. Fortunately all these things I was able to handle without the man having to come out.

Vaccines, de-wormers and other general supplies I purchase from the co-op or catalog (Valley Vet or KV)

I figure by keeping the vet involved in my herd, limited as his involvement may be, its good for him and good for me. Anytime I've called with a question he's never charged me for it. If I call for a specific med that cannot be purchased OTC, he has no problem having it waiting for me to pick-up and I believe it is because of an 'established' relationship.

Katherine

Thats the benefit of having a vet that has come to your farm in the past. They know you and when you need medicine, they will leave it out for you-WITHOUT having to see the animal. Try calling another vet and see what you hear? It will be sorry we have to see the animal first.

GMN

 

[Workinonit Farm]

Thats the benefit of having a vet that has come to your farm in the past. They know you and when you need medicine, they will leave it out for you-WITHOUT having to see the animal.

Thus saving him time from having to come all the way out here for something that's not life-threatening and saving me a few $$.

Try calling another vet and see what you hear? It will be sorry we have to see the animal first.

:nod: :nod: Has happened to an acquaintence a couple of times.

GMN

Katherine

 

[Angus Cowman]

Interesting discussion in this thread but not much talk about the preventative medicine approach - one or two scheduled, whole-herd vet visits a year to keep them all healthy, preg check etc. Am I the only one who does this?

I have the vet out twice a yr to preg check which I can do myself but for what he charges it lets me and the wife do the worming and vacc alot faster and I don't have to hire anyone else and i am also not near as wore out at the end of the day
he charges $3 per hd and a $40 farm call so the entire visit is usually around $500
the other time I have him out is when we semen test bulls he charges the $40 FC and $15 per hd so there again I don't have to hire someone else to help for the day and the visit is around $150

so my vet cost is usually less than a $1000.00 per yr
I have called him on some things and he stops by while out and never even charges, I think most of the time he just wants to stop and visit and as for asking him questions I don't mind because he will call me and ask me ?? about fencing or tractors or other things

I think everyone needs to have a good relationship with their vet and not get offended if he charges you $100 for a visit

Would you drive 40 + miles,work for 2 hrs and supply $30 of meds and then drive 40+ miles to your next appointment or home for $100
I know I wouldn't

 

[Ryder]

We say call a vet because we know right away that you are in over your heads. "you/your" being general not specific..

I really wish people would do the research before they buy the cattle but that NEVER seems to happen and they have NO clue to what they are doing..

Things will get so regulated because of these stupid people that we will all soon have to call a vet for everything..

I'm afraid you are right. But I think it is because of vet lobbies more than stupid people.[/b]


Before you buy an animal, be it a cow dog cat gerbil, do some research on how to properly care for them and how to care for them when they are ill. In the cattle business you had better know how to diagnose an illness and treat it ,and only get the vet out for serious surgical procedures like a displaced abomasum ,bull soundness exams etc.. to make any money as the profit margin is just not there.

[b]I do agree.[/b]

But yes, MO summed it up quite well; a lot of people try to treat without knowing what they are dealing with and by the time the vet is called it is too late..