Vets

[simme]

Keep in mind that all calves start out the same size - microscopic, dang small. But they grow in the uterus at different rates. Some calves are going to be born at 100 pounds. Some at 50 pounds. Those two have different growth curves and sizes in the uterus at the same age. When palpating at less than 2 months, it is easy to be close on calving date. Same at 8 months. In between, there is the time that the calf slips over the pelvic ridge. It may be that a Ouija board or crystal ball might be as accurate depending on the stage in the pregnancy when you are palpating.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

anewcomer> Record is kept on all cows regardless of age. If any cow is late with a calf (heifer or bull) no calf from that cow will ever be retained
in the herd again. As soon as the calves are weaned (usually dark of moon- October) the cow will be sold. Cows being sold are usually fed enough to
improve body conditioning for market. Body conditioning is extremely important, during 3rd trimester so they (especially heifers) will cycle
within 90 days of calving. Remember it is not the time you leave the bull in but the timing of selection. The bull can't breed what ain't there.
This may seem expensive at first but the cost of a late calf is unrecoverable and can be continous if allowed over time.
Aside from that don't calve in cold weather, maintain a good mineral program and don't let too much iron and oil come between the sun and
the ground. Good Luck!

 

[anewcomer]

Lee, great plan all the way round! Does this mean you never carry a cow through the winter who's open?

 

[Lee VanRoss]

an> . Just enough to improve condition as .needed, Attitude can have a bearing but I assume you already have that covered
I do want to make it clear the calving period is not 30 days but around 60 days depending on what is taking place at the time.
The time for retention is restricted to the 1st 30 days. A cow having a calf in the 2nd 30 days is not necessarily removed but any
calf she has after that will not be kept for breeding, Any cow with a calf after 60 days is removed and of course the calf at marketing,
usually @ 10- 11 months. Hard part is to remove a cow that has calf in the 1st 30 days for 4 generations then has one in the 2nd 30.
Also I do not breed heifers before 15 months. Remember you cannot abdicate responsibility for setting the calving period and
maintain control of the results.. [Your question sorry.... I do not winter open cows. As long as we're here , Bulls are up to you of course.
Just remember if you are using large bulls you will eventually have large and therefore hard keeping cows. With that in consideration
the longer you can keep a cow the more uniform your herd and therefore your calves .
I regret to say none of this is my own idea but they do work when fine tuned to your situation.

 

[JDK]

No I have no experience calving out cattle. But willing to learn if need be. Why ?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Just wondering how much experience you have. Guess you will have experience soon!!
Each cow/heifer is different - some definitely do NOT follow the "rules"!
Most cows will start bagging up, vulva will swell & loosen (get "sloppy"), ligaments in hips will loosen. They usually won't eat much at all the last 24 hours before calving. When she is getting real close, she will want to isolate herself from the herd.
Not to frighten you, but some cows get very aggressive with a newborn on her side. Just be aware of that. Sometimes they are always aggressive after calving, sometimes only for the first day or two. Some (most) are fine - but usually don't like you messing with the newborn.
In my program - I give each newborn a shot of Selenium (Bose or Multimin 90) (both need vet script), a shot of Vitamin A&D, dip naval with iodine, weigh and tag. Most areas of USA are SE deficient, and it is important to get a supply into the newborn.
Enjoy - nothing like watching a newborn!!

 

[kenny thomas]

If you need or want real accuracy from the vet in preg checking find one who does ultra sound checking. They will be a lot more accurate and can even tell you the sex of the calf if it is far enough along.

Well most times.
I sold a registered Angus cow this fall because she calved out of season. I made a deal with the buyer to buy back the calf at weaning. She was vet checked to have a bull calf. The buyer told me a few days ago that she had a tiny heifer calf.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

It is all human guessing/interpretation. The more they do it the better they are at interpretating what they see or feel.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

I'll say it again, "You cannot abdicate responsibility for setting the calving period and maintain control of the results''
I would estimate there are thousands of dollars spent each year paying good money to have someone (guess or predict) when a cow will calve.
When you know in your heart it is not an exact science why do it? Has anyone offered you a money back gaurantee if wrong? Oh hell no...
It is just one more time to stress the cow , maybe the herd and increase the chance of injury to personel.
While I will grant you it is socially acceptable it is a financial non-starter.

 

[Buck Randall]

I'll say it again, "You cannot abdicate responsibility for setting the calving period and maintain control of the results''
I would estimate there are thousands of dollars spent each year paying good money to have someone (guess or predict) when a cow will calve.
When you know in your heart it is not an exact science why do it? Has anyone offered you a money back gaurantee if wrong? Oh hell no...
It is just one more time to stress the cow , maybe the herd and increase the chance of injury to personel.
While I will grant you it is socially acceptable it is a financial non-starter.

What do you figure it costs to feed an open cow for a year? That's a financial non-starter.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I have a designated calving interval. I don't use a bull, so I know my due dates. I have never had my herd pregnancy tested. I walk thru my cattle often enough to know when a cow is open. I do calve spring and fall, so I use the option of sliding one into the next calving season - but, they better not have any other strikes against them, or they are culled. My cows get 100% AI and may sell $2000 - $8000 heifer offspring. I can afford to let one slide for 1/2 year if she is a good producer. Heck my steers bring me well over $1200/hd when you average out the show steers sold and weaned bull calves. Because of the lack of hay this year, I culled hard into my cow herd. Can't afford to cut any deeper so they better behave!! LOL

 

[76 Bar]

I'll say it again, "You cannot abdicate responsibility for setting the calving period and maintain control of the results''
I would estimate there are thousands of dollars spent each year paying good money to have someone (guess or predict) when a cow will calve.
When you know in your heart it is not an exact science why do it? Has anyone offered you a money back gaurantee if wrong? Oh hell no...
It is just one more time to stress the cow , maybe the herd and increase the chance of injury to personel.
While I will grant you it is socially acceptable it is a financial non-starter.

Might not be pertinent to the topic but having a tight calving season (~60 days) and limited resources its imperative to determine opens in a timely fashion. If preg checking is as stressful as you intimate, a review of one's operational procedures & DVM is in order.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

There is no argument that keeping an open cow is a financial non-starter. The question now is how one chooses to resolve the problem.
My question to anyone is; Since you have been paying to have your cows pregged, (not counting first year has your percentage of live births in the
first 30 days of the calving period increased? (or do you even have a record of it?) All things being equal (and it seldom is) your best chance for
profit are cows calving consistantly every year in the 1st 30 days of the calving period. Allowing for a two year start before the 1st calf a 6 year old
would have 4 generations of progeny behind her. If this cow is not consistantly calving in the first 30 days you are giving up profit in pounds of
beef plus the vet bill even if she stays in the herd. This begs the question; If you had decided 4 years ago to only retain heifers born in the first
30 days of the calving season would you be culling the same percentage of cows as you do now? I grant you that first year can be a nail biter
and you may want to mitigate the situation by deep culling from the 60 to 90 day group first. Over time you will find the cows calving in the
first 30 days will be the more consistant, fertile and therefore most profitable. A preg test will not gaurantee a first 30 day calving date.
I have a tight calving period (-60 days) and the cows are being handled less as well as a vet bill being eliminated.
I appreciate the conversation and wish all a Blessed Christmas and a profitable 2021 LVR

 

[Hpacres440p]

There is no argument that keeping an open cow is a financial non-starter. The question now is how one chooses to resolve the problem.
My question to anyone is; Since you have been paying to have your cows pregged, (not counting first year has your percentage of live births in the
first 30 days of the calving period increased? (or do you even have a record of it?) All things being equal (and it seldom is) your best chance for
profit are cows calving consistantly every year in the 1st 30 days of the calving period. Allowing for a two year start before the 1st calf a 6 year old
would have 4 generations of progeny behind her. If this cow is not consistantly calving in the first 30 days you are giving up profit in pounds of
beef plus the vet bill even if she stays in the herd. This begs the question; If you had decided 4 years ago to only retain heifers born in the first
30 days of the calving season would you be culling the same percentage of cows as you do now? I grant you that first year can be a nail biter
and you may want to mitigate the situation by deep culling from the 60 to 90 day group first. Over time you will find the cows calving in the
first 30 days will be the more consistant, fertile and therefore most profitable. A preg test will not gaurantee a first 30 day calving date.
I have a tight calving period (-60 days) and the cows are being handled less as well as a vet bill being eliminated.
I appreciate the conversation and wish all a Blessed Christmas and a profitable 2021 LVR

To keep replacement heifers in time with the rest of the herd, do you wait to breed them with the rest of the herd (potentially 20-24 months) or do you maintain a separate heifer calving group?
I ask because I have a yearling heifer whose mother bred back about 50 days post-calving, has calves again-late November-and planning to AI again early January. Her heifer (above) would be 15 months old in May, which would have her calving as a two-year old, but off-cycle from the cows. If I wait to get her in sync, she would be almost 3 for 1st calf. Small herd, so management isn't a huge problem other than paying AI guy to come out for a separate AI cycle.

 

[sstterry]

Well most times.
I sold a registered Angus cow this fall because she calved out of season. I made a deal with the buyer to buy back the calf at weaning. She was vet checked to have a bull calf. The buyer told me a few days ago that she had a tiny heifer calf.

I have had some friends like that!

 

[Silver]

A four dollar preg test is pretty cheap insurance. It is also a great time to do annual vaccinations. I would not consider not preg testing. Ever.

Edit: Preg testing time is the one time a year comes to the place. With todays requirements for a vet / client relationship this becomes even more important.

 

[SBMF 2015]

I pull bulls so accuracy isn't as important to me. I know that as long as the vet calls them bred they will calve in that 60 day window. I preg check to be sure I'm not wintering any open cows.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

HP I am going to base my answer on my location which is north of Kansas City, South of Fargo, West of Cleveland and East of Laramie.
Not being a smart a-- but I do know the Xenpro forums has viewers in the millions and I cannot attest to any one's individual motivation.

That said, I put the bull with the cows Jul 1 which will give me calves starting April 5. With 20 head they will usually be done by the first
week of May. I seldom have no more than 3 replacements and sometimes none in any given year. When I do have replacements I will
put the bull with the heifer say about June 10 or so. That can give me a calf as early a 15 March but seldom if ever have 3 calve in March.
What am careful about is making sure the bred cows are getting good rations , including minerals and supplements, so I have more assurance
they will breed back in a timely manner. The heifers are fed with the market calves which normally are sold at 10-11 months 870 lb mosa minos.
which would be late March early April. ( I should have indicated especially the 3rd trimester for the bred cows)

I suppose calving in the fall can give one an advantage in some markets in which case I can see your reasoning. Of course location is always
a factor as well. I used to calve in February and March and I remember going out to check cows in the dark with a flashlight.
Anymore I go out in April and count calves . You are in a very good position to be insured of a short calving period if you are using AI.
I think I would just breed the heifers a cycle ahead of the cows separate them from the cows until the cows were done then put them together.
(Heifers can forget which baby is hers or vice versa......) If I had just one and it were off cycle I think I would butcher or trade it in for new model....
Main thing is '' drive your own bus and do what works for you''! Hope your winters are warm!

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@Hpacres440p - if you grow your heifers out properly, I am not afraid to calve one at 21 months of age. I agree with @Lee VanRoss about breeding heifers a week in front of the cows. It gives her a little longer time to breed back as a 2 yr old.

 

[Hpacres440p]

HP I am going to base my answer on my location which is north of Kansas City, South of Fargo, West of Cleveland and East of Laramie.
Not being a smart a-- but I do know the Xenpro forums has viewers in the millions and I cannot attest to any one's individual motivation.

That said, I put the bull with the cows Jul 1 which will give me calves starting April 5. With 20 head they will usually be done by the first
week of May. I seldom have no more than 3 replacements and sometimes none in any given year. When I do have replacements I will
put the bull with the heifer say about June 10 or so. That can give me a calf as early a 15 March but seldom if ever have 3 calve in March.
What am careful about is making sure the bred cows are getting good rations , including minerals and supplements, so I have more assurance
they will breed back in a timely manner. The heifers are fed with the market calves which normally are sold at 10-11 months 870 lb mosa minos.
which would be late March early April. ( I should have indicated especially the 3rd trimester for the bred cows)

I suppose calving in the fall can give one an advantage in some markets in which case I can see your reasoning. Of course location is always
a factor as well. I used to calve in February and March and I remember going out to check cows in the dark with a flashlight.
Anymore I go out in April and count calves . You are in a very good position to be insured of a short calving period if you are using AI.
I think I would just breed the heifers a cycle ahead of the cows separate them from the cows until the cows were done then put them together.
(Heifers can forget which baby is hers or vice versa......) If I had just one and it were off cycle I think I would butcher or trade it in for new model....
Main thing is '' drive your own bus and do what works for you''! Hope your winters are warm!

Two reasons for calving in fall-avoiding black buzzards (they seem to be gone or at least fewer) and flies. I direct-sell for beef, so don't have to worry so much about sale barn prices-although here in central Texas, prices tank in October (spring calves) due to no pasture and higher rate of calf illness from weather change stress. Winters are wet, but grass comes on heavy in the spring(usually)-just in time to hit a fully grazing calf.
Thanks for all your input!