Thoughts on this bull

[KNERSIE]

Cuz anything that weans under 600 pounds on my farm at 205 days will not stay. No if's ands or buts. I do not care how good they look.

It's good to have a set standard, but what I don't understand is exactly what you are selecting for in doing so.

You have said on numerous occasions in the past that you creep feed from an early age, so based on that you're not really selecting based on the dam's ability to milk and raise a calf and since the calf is still suckling his dam you're not really selecting for the calf's own growth potential when on feed.

I have gathered that you try and provide the best possible grazing for you cows, which is always a good practice and is commendable, so wouldn't it make more sense to see what your cattle are capable of doing by themself first and only start creep feeding after the official weaning weights has been taken?

Compensatory gain will still get you where you need to be at yearling age to still be competetive and since you make no secret of your feeding regime I can't see what you have to lose by not creep feeding from an early age.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Cuz anything that weans under 600 pounds on my farm at 205 days will not stay. No if's ands or buts. I do not care how good they look.

It's good to have a set standard, but what I don't understand is exactly what you are selecting for in doing so.

You have said on numerous occasions in the past that you creep feed from an early age, so based on that you're not really selecting based on the dam's ability to milk and raise a calf and since the calf is still suckling his dam you're not really selecting for the calf's own growth potential when on feed.

I have gathered that you try and provide the best possible grazing for you cows, which is always a good practice and is commendable, so wouldn't it make more sense to see what your cattle are capable of doing by themself first and only start creep feeding after the official weaning weights has been taken?

Compensatory gain will still get you where you need to be at yearling age to still be competetive and since you make no secret of your feeding regime I can't see what you have to lose by not creep feeding from an early age.

but it seems too me to be a dead end standard, to just say they got to be this weight no matter how good they look. i can see a sht storm that would brew from it.

 

[bandit80]

[

Cuz anything that weans under 600 pounds on my farm at 205 days will not stay. No if's ands or buts. I do not care how good they look. Granted that is a good weaning date to yearling weight spread but still the weaning weight scares me. My main herd bull weaned at 663 on mother's milk and grass and was a fall calf. My new bull that I am breeding the main herd bull's heifer to weaned at 205 days at 777 off mother's milk and grass and he was a january calf.

Understandable. Everybody runs their operation the way they want. I use this bull because I feel he will improve the carcass genetics of my gelbvieh cattle, and also his growth EPD's are in the top of the breed. His individual weaning weight performance was not stellar, but it still wasn't that bad. And I use the term bad very loosely. I wonder how many commercial cattleman average 593 lbs at 205 days of age? Any guesses. Me thinks more average less than 593 than more.

I still think he is a good bull. ;-)

 

[ALACOWMAN]

then your selection for them over 600 is actually masked by the fact you have too creep em just to get them that far at 205 days?

 

[MikeC]

Right now it cost 86 cents to put 1 pound of gain on them. If I sell the meat for 110.00 per pound then I am making a profit.

A 1200 lb calf will cost you (provided he has an approx BW of 100 lbs.) at $0.86 =$946

This same calf will produce only about 744 lbs (hanging carcass) at $1.10 per lb.= $818

You have just lost $128 per head. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Gelbvieh 5]

No,

What I am saying is. They were weaning at over 600 on mother's milk and grass before the last couple years drought hit. I have only been creep feeding them the last few years. Back in 05 out of 39 cows 35 weaned at over 600 on mother's milk and grass and did good. Then 06 07 and 08 roll around and drought drought drought so the need for creep feed.

I'm kinda new so I hope you'll indulge me a little here. I am looking at the difference between Good Doers, and Bad Doers. If these calves your talking about only wean off at 600 pounds if the mothers are on real good grass where does it put the cows relative to being a good doer or a bad doer. I'm trying to figure out some criteria by weaning weight to go by. Also you have talked about your Salers on here, are these the Saler influenced cows or didn't you raise Gelbvieh's at one time. I'm trying to figure out which breed does best under less than ideal conditions. One other thing is there a difference in weaning weight between the two breeds.

Also what do you think your calves would wean at without the creep feed, or do you think it would tear down the cows too much if you didn't use it. No offense I'm just curious.

 

[ROB]

Right now it cost 86 cents to put 1 pound of gain on them. If I sell the meat for 110.00 per pound then I am making a profit.

A 1200 lb calf will cost you (provided he has an approx BW of 100 lbs.) at $0.86 =$946

This same calf will produce only about 744 lbs (hanging carcass) at $1.10 per lb.= $818

You have just lost $128 per head. :lol: :lol: :lol:

MikeC, your approach is funny- but i wouldn't think that the 86 cents/lb of gain is figured from birth (including weight gained off the cow). i would think that by selling meat at $1.10/lb, your breakeven point for cost of gain would be 68.2 cents/lb on the carcass weight. (dressing out at 62%) that would figure correctly no matter what the current weight of the animal. it looks to me like his breakeven point at 86 cents/lb gain on the carcass would equate out to about $1.39/lb of hanging wt. am i looking at this wrong? i havent ever lost money selling butcher beef- but i've never sold it for $1.10/lb either.

ROB

 

[MikeC]

Rob, I am using his figures:

Right now it cost 86 cents to put 1 pound of gain on them. If I sell the meat for 110.00 per pound then I am making a profit.

I would bet that it does cost $.86 per lb. to put gain on them from birth if you figure in cow upkeep and breeding costs.......................

 

[Brandonm22]

If you are comparing two virgin bulls out of the same calf crop and the same pasture with similarly aged moms that one "only" weighed 593 and the other weighed 777 is very significant.

If however you are comparing two virgin bulls raised on different farms in different states with different management eating different rations with different weather; then the 184 lb difference becomes much less relevant. I would still prefer the bull with the bigger number, but I don't have a lot of confidence in that number.

If you are comparing two AI bulls each with 50+++ progeny in the system, WHO cares who beat who actually sucking their momma's teat??? The EPDs derived from the ratios of the massed calves performance are a whole lot more accuarate than a bull's own individual performance. There are a LOT of bulls over the years who performed well themselves who sired mediocre performing progeny.