The Red Hide Rebellion

[KNERSIE]

What I fail to understand is why a thread like this that has been beaten to death in the past is allowed to go on forever, especially when it isn't exactly in the best spirit.

While an informative thread on the beginners board are locked down prematurely when the debate wasn't even very heated in my opinion.

Manure. If you breed an Angus bull to a red cow, the calf will carry both color genes. The next generation will have 50-50 chance of being red or black if that animal is bred to a red bull. You're splitting hairs here, Van. Is it ok for CHB to use cattle based on a physical description, but not ok for CAB to do the same thing?

maybe manure is indeed different to BS?!

 

[Frankie]

What I fail to understand is why a thread like this that has been beaten to death in the past is allowed to go on forever, especially when it isn't exactly in the best spirit.

While an informative thread on the beginners board are locked down prematurely when the debate wasn't even very heated in my opinion.

Manure. If you breed an Angus bull to a red cow, the calf will carry both color genes. The next generation will have 50-50 chance of being red or black if that animal is bred to a red bull. You're splitting hairs here, Van. Is it ok for CHB to use cattle based on a physical description, but not ok for CAB to do the same thing?

maybe manure is indeed different to BS?!

We need a good CAB-bashing thread occasionally. It keeps the brand in people's minds.

 

[Wewild]

I don't believe the CAB program was originally intended to mislead, but with so many breeds turning black in order to cash in, it has become so, IMO. Thirty years ago if it had a black hide, it was Angus. Now, who knows? Surely the CAB folks know there are a lot of non-Angus cattle stamped as CAB. Why don't they fix it? Seems to me if they required CAB to be a certain percentage of Angus, it would be a boon to Angus breeders.

Good post.

It really comes down to an uninformed consumer.

 

[Frankie]

Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Hereford Association uses pretty much the same criteria for CHB.

I, too, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but two wrongs don't make a right. (I just made that up, BTW). ;-) I've said this before and I'll say it again: When your only defense is "other people do it, too" then whatever you're defending probably ain't worth defending.

No, my defense is no defense. There's nothing wrong with the CAB program. The rules have been approved by the USDA.

We disagree. So be it. As for the USDA, well, it sure isn't the first time I've disagreed with something that's been approved by our government. How about you?

Just because a few jealous breeders can't deal with success, doesn't make it wrong.

As anyone who's been paying attention knows, I'm not a breeder, and likely never will be, but I still have an opinion on this subject. Does it affect me? Not really. Does the general public care? Apparently not, at least not yet. But if they ever decide that they do, it could put the entire industry in a bad light, and a lot of good people could get hurt. That's what I worry about. Maybe I'm just seeing shadows that aren't there. I hope so.

Your posts, for example, seem to indicate it's ok for Herefords to use the same criteria because they haven't been as successful as CAB. Does that mean when they're selling half a BILLION pounds of CHB, you'll get on their case, too?

I'm sorry if anyone got that impression. Let me clarify. It is wrong to mislead the public whether you sell ten pounds of beef or a billion, whether you sell one crappy car or millions, or whatever. I'll repeat what I've said before: I don't believe the CAB program was originally intended to mislead, but with so many breeds turning black in order to cash in, it has become so, IMO. Thirty years ago if it had a black hide, it was Angus. Now, who knows? Surely the CAB folks know there are a lot of non-Angus cattle stamped as CAB. Why don't they fix it? Seems to me if they required CAB to be a certain percentage of Angus, it would be a boon to Angus breeders.

But you're not responding to the question: Why aren't you bashing CHB for their program? Why is it only CAB that gets taken to the woodshed for being "dishonest" and "misleading"?

 

[VanC]

But you're not responding to the question: Why aren't you bashing CHB for their program? Why is it only CAB that gets taken to the woodshed for being "dishonest" and "misleading"?

You said it better than I could:

We need a good CAB-bashing thread occasionally. It keeps the brand in people's minds.

Besides, my talents are best reserved for going after the big dogs. I leave the little ones to my subordinates. :lol:

 

[farmwife]

What other breed will consistently give you the Hereford markings, except for Hereford?

Fleckvieh Simmental will give you Hereford markings, but I think it's safe to say there aren't nearly as many of them being stamped as CHB as there are non-Angus blacks being stamped as CAB.

Fleck won't give it consistently though, you will also get the paint look.

 

[CSM]

Frankie, Nolan Ryan is not using the word CERTIFIED in his brand name. If you look at the requirements for CHB and CAB
I believe you would have a better chance of getting what you
think you are buying with the CHB.

I do not think anyone should be using certified in their name. A certification will always be granted to you by someone other than yourself. An accountant can not legally use CPA after his name if he is not a CPA.

csm

 

[Frankie]

Frankie, Nolan Ryan is not using the word CERTIFIED in his brand name.

Grasping at straws. Speak very carefully, because you want to not step on your....toe.

If you look at the requirements for CHB and CAB
I believe you would have a better chance of getting what you
think you are buying with the CHB.

Why? They use virtually the same requirements: if it looks like an Angus, it can be CAB. If it looks like a Hereford (except the color), it can be CHB. CAB has higher quality grade requirements, though.

I do not think anyone should be using certified in their name. A certification will always be granted to you by someone other than yourself. An accountant can not legally use CPA after his name if he is not a CPA.

csm

Certification is made by the meat grader in the packing plant after the carcass meets the USDA-approved requirements, not by CAB or the American Angus Assn or me. So your statement makes no sense.

 

[CSM]

I was saying that I thougt CHB was more accurate than CAB, much more accurate. But the graders are can not be completely accurate, and they are following the guidelines of CAB or CHB. They are not certifing that an animal is angus or hereford, just that they met the requirements of one of these brands. If the USDA tested and stated what the DNA was, that whould be a certification.

csm

 

[Frankie]

I was saying that I thougt CHB was more accurate than CAB, much more accurate. But the graders are can not be completely accurate, and they are following the guidelines of CAB or CHB. They are not certifing that an animal is angus or hereford, just that they met the requirements of one of these brands. If the USDA tested and stated what the DNA was, that whould be a certification.

csm

But you don't offer any reason to believe CHB is more accurate.

Meat graders are certifying the carcass they stamp meets the USDA requirments for CHB or CAB. Since it doesn't get down a CAB line (and I assume a CHB line) unless it meets the visual requirements, when the grader stamps it as CAB or CHB, he's certifying it meets ALL the USDA standards including breed requirements.

 

[CSM]

Anyone can make a good guess that an animal has a high percentage of hereford by the markings, you can not do so with all the black cattle. I still say that they are not certified by breed but qualified by the standards set up by CAB or CHB. I think that both should have a more accurate name without the Certified.

csm

 

[VanC]

I was saying that I thougt CHB was more accurate than CAB, much more accurate. But the graders are can not be completely accurate, and they are following the guidelines of CAB or CHB. They are not certifing that an animal is angus or hereford, just that they met the requirements of one of these brands. If the USDA tested and stated what the DNA was, that whould be a certification.

csm

But you don't offer any reason to believe CHB is more accurate.

Meat graders are certifying the carcass they stamp meets the USDA requirments for CHB or CAB. Since it doesn't get down a CAB line (and I assume a CHB line) unless it meets the visual requirements, when the grader stamps it as CAB or CHB, he's certifying it meets ALL the USDA standards including breed requirements.

There are no breed requirements. As you said earlier, if it looks like Angus it can be CAB, and if it looks like Hereford, it can be CHB. The difference is if it looks like Hereford it almost certainly IS Hereford, while if it looks like Angus it could be any number of breeds. I think this is what CSM is trying to say when he/she says CHB is more accurate.

 

[CSM]

If you buy CAB are you guaranteed that you are buying angus? No.

If you buy CHB are you guaranteed that you are buying hereford? No.

I respect others opinions, but i think they should all certify or drop it in the name.

csm

 

[Frankie]

Anyone can make a good guess that an animal has a high percentage of hereford by the markings, you can not do so with all the black cattle. I still say that they are not certified by breed but qualified by the standards set up by CAB or CHB. I think that both should have a more accurate name without the Certified.

csm

There are lots of third generation cattle carrying Hereford markings. At least you'll admit your opinion is based on guesswork. :roll: A Certified Ford Mechanic was trained by the Ford Motor Company. Where do you stand on that? When, exactly, would you consider it ok to use the word "certified?"

 

[Frankie]

I was saying that I thougt CHB was more accurate than CAB, much more accurate. But the graders are can not be completely accurate, and they are following the guidelines of CAB or CHB. They are not certifing that an animal is angus or hereford, just that they met the requirements of one of these brands. If the USDA tested and stated what the DNA was, that whould be a certification.

csm

But you don't offer any reason to believe CHB is more accurate.

Meat graders are certifying the carcass they stamp meets the USDA requirments for CHB or CAB. Since it doesn't get down a CAB line (and I assume a CHB line) unless it meets the visual requirements, when the grader stamps it as CAB or CHB, he's certifying it meets ALL the USDA standards including breed requirements.

There are no breed requirements. As you said earlier, if it looks like Angus it can be CAB, and if it looks like Hereford, it can be CHB. The difference is if it looks like Hereford it almost certainly IS Hereford, while if it looks like Angus it could be any number of breeds. I think this is what CSM is trying to say when he/she says CHB is more accurate.

If it's black, it has some Angus in it. Will you deny that?

If it has the Hereford markings, it has Hereford in it. Will you deny that?

 

[Frankie]

If you buy CAB are you guaranteed that you are buying angus? No.

If you buy CHB are you guaranteed that you are buying hereford? No.

I respect others opinions, but i think they should all certify or drop it in the name.

csm

Certification is that the meat meets the USDA-approved specifications. When the grader stamps the carcass, it has met all those specs and he's certifying that.

 

[VanC]

I was saying that I thougt CHB was more accurate than CAB, much more accurate. But the graders are can not be completely accurate, and they are following the guidelines of CAB or CHB. They are not certifing that an animal is angus or hereford, just that they met the requirements of one of these brands. If the USDA tested and stated what the DNA was, that whould be a certification.

csm

But you don't offer any reason to believe CHB is more accurate.

Meat graders are certifying the carcass they stamp meets the USDA requirments for CHB or CAB. Since it doesn't get down a CAB line (and I assume a CHB line) unless it meets the visual requirements, when the grader stamps it as CAB or CHB, he's certifying it meets ALL the USDA standards including breed requirements.

There are no breed requirements. As you said earlier, if it looks like Angus it can be CAB, and if it looks like Hereford, it can be CHB. The difference is if it looks like Hereford it almost certainly IS Hereford, while if it looks like Angus it could be any number of breeds. I think this is what CSM is trying to say when he/she says CHB is more accurate.

If it's black, it has some Angus in it. Will you deny that?

If it has the Hereford markings, it has Hereford in it. Will you deny that?

Read the above bold type again. Then read this again:

"My point is that once you get a black hide, you can continue to maintain that without introducing any more Angus influence, as long as you breed homozygous black to homozygous black. On the other hand, you cannot maintain the Hereford markings through as many generations without introducing more Hereford in the mix. The black hide can go on forever while the Hereford markings cannot."

In fact, read them 10 more times, if that's what it takes. The question is not whether there is influence, but how much influence. An animal that has, say, 1% Angus influence CAN, AND OFTEN WILL, look like Angus. An animal that has 1% Hereford influence WILL RARELY, IF EVER, have Hereford markings. It's not rocket science.

As that great American, Bill O'Reilly says, I'll give you the last word. This has gone on way too long. I'm done with this.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well black doesn't necessary mean Angus it could be Galloway, Welsh Black or heaven forbid Holstein.

 

[MikeC]

Well black doesn't necessary mean Angus it could be Galloway, Welsh Black or heaven forbid Holstein.

Correct. Plus, the oldest breed of cattle in the USA has a very high percentage of black. Corriente were brought here by the Spanish back just before my time. :lol:

There were lots of those down here in the middle of the last century.The brammers came in and pushed them to the side.

 

[Frankie]

I was saying that I thougt CHB was more accurate than CAB, much more accurate. But the graders are can not be completely accurate, and they are following the guidelines of CAB or CHB. They are not certifing that an animal is angus or hereford, just that they met the requirements of one of these brands. If the USDA tested and stated what the DNA was, that whould be a certification.

csm

But you don't offer any reason to believe CHB is more accurate.

Meat graders are certifying the carcass they stamp meets the USDA requirments for CHB or CAB. Since it doesn't get down a CAB line (and I assume a CHB line) unless it meets the visual requirements, when the grader stamps it as CAB or CHB, he's certifying it meets ALL the USDA standards including breed requirements.

There are no breed requirements. As you said earlier, if it looks like Angus it can be CAB, and if it looks like Hereford, it can be CHB. The difference is if it looks like Hereford it almost certainly IS Hereford, while if it looks like Angus it could be any number of breeds. I think this is what CSM is trying to say when he/she says CHB is more accurate.

If it's black, it has some Angus in it. Will you deny that?

If it has the Hereford markings, it has Hereford in it. Will you deny that?

Read the above bold type again. Then read this again:

"My point is that once you get a black hide, you can continue to maintain that without introducing any more Angus influence, as long as you breed homozygous black to homozygous black. On the other hand, you cannot maintain the Hereford markings through as many generations without introducing more Hereford in the mix. The black hide can go on forever while the Hereford markings cannot."

In fact, read them 10 more times, if that's what it takes. The question is not whether there is influence, but how much influence. An animal that has, say, 1% Angus influence CAN, AND OFTEN WILL, look like Angus. An animal that has 1% Hereford influence WILL RARELY, IF EVER, have Hereford markings. It's not rocket science.

You're splitting hairs, again, or still. You say both CHB and CAB are wrong, yet the only one you bash is CAB. It's not fair, it's not right, it's not a satisfactory response. The percentage of Angus or Hereford in either branded beef program is not mentioned or required. Yet, AGAIN, you give CHB a pass and bash CAB.

As that great American, Bill O'Reilly says, I'll give you the last word. This has gone on way too long. I'm done with this.

And I'll take it. I expect lots of posters to just bash the breed, but I would have expected a fair shake from you. Instead you say it's wrong for CHB to use the same specs as CAB, but you give them a free pass while condeming CAB. :x