The date that lives in infamy is here again.

[greybeard]

A sneak attack-certainly.
Cowardly? I don't think the Japanese were cowards. They were of a different culture.

People refer to these terrorist suicide bombers as cowards. I don't think they are. How could a coward sacrifice his own life like they do?
I think it can be foolish and dangerous to label people cowards just because it is an emotional derogatory term.

How? Pretty easy.. But the coward part comes from the "demograp[hic of their victims. Women, children, civilians,..... indiscriminate victims.
Kill and maim those suddenly, uncaring, brutally, without warning--------instead of facing an armed foe on the field of battle?
Even if the perpetrator's life is lost in the process. Blowing yourself up instead of facing an enemy is also, IMO, the act of a coward.
In fact, it's the easiest way there is to prosecute war.
There isn't a dam thing courageous about that.

 

[jedstivers]

My granddad and uncle that were in fighting the Germans weren't to many generations removed from German either. The shows on History channel about that have the old Germans look like they could be family.

 

[TexasBred]

How? Pretty easy.. But the coward part comes from the "demograp[hic of their victims. Women, children, civilians,..... indiscriminate victims.
Kill and maim those suddenly, uncaring, brutally, without warning--------instead of facing an armed foe on the field of battle?
Even if the perpetrator's life is lost in the process. Blowing yourself up instead of facing an enemy is also, IMO, the act of a coward.
In fact, it's the easiest way there is to prosecute war.
There isn't a dam thing courageous about that.

GB I know what you're saying but it's a pretty well accepted fact that the Japanese were the most ferocious fighters Americans have ever faced. The Vietnamese could be just as cold blooded but were anything but cowards. The goal is to win. How you do it is often determined in a millisecond.

 

[TexasBred]

The Marine uncle that made the beach landings was named William Barrett Travis St**** after the commander of the Alamo.
I always thought that name didn't work out to well for the first guy with it, guess it was better the second go around.

CB he's lucky he didn't get his gluteus maximus shot off. :lol: :lol:

 

[greybeard]

How? Pretty easy.. But the coward part comes from the "demograp[hic of their victims. Women, children, civilians,..... indiscriminate victims.
Kill and maim those suddenly, uncaring, brutally, without warning--------instead of facing an armed foe on the field of battle?
Even if the perpetrator's life is lost in the process. Blowing yourself up instead of facing an enemy is also, IMO, the act of a coward.
In fact, it's the easiest way there is to prosecute war.
There isn't a dam thing courageous about that.

GB I know what you're saying but it's a pretty well accepted fact that the Japanese were the most ferocious fighters Americans have ever faced. The Vietnamese could be just as cold blooded but were anything but cowards. The goal is to win. How you do it is often determined in a millisecond.

Yes, the goal IS to win--and once war comes, do it by any means neccessary--within reason and within context. You just removed the context. Once war is declared, (all sides involved know danger lurks) no holds are barred except chemical and biological weapons nowadays. Even the use of nukes on Japan happened during a known and pre-existing state of war. There was certainly courage in kamakazi attacks, courage at the Alamo, courage at Thermopylae. In combat, uncommon valor is a common virtue--lots of people have died throwing themselves on grenades, staying behind to perform blocking actions etc, but that is in the context of an existing state of war. There was no existing state of war (declared or inferred) on the morning of Dec 7 1941. There was no existing state of war on Sept 11 2001. There is also no existing state of war when a suicide bomber decides to blow himself up in a busy marketplace, killing and maiming dozens or hundreds of women and children.
The Fort Hood shooter was also an abject coward IMO.

Someone mentioned Drones. To be honest, I do not much like their use. Even tho the targets--in an ongoing military endeavor--are supposed to be military targets, it takes the horror out of war for the operator. They are just TOO easy. The drone operator--He/she, is hundreds or thousands of miles from battle, may have never fired a shot or had one fired at him, yet he has the power to take lives at the push of a button. He does his thing, pushes his chair back from the console, gives high fives o the observers around him and heads to the 'O club' or home to his family. IMO, altho it saves lives, we have simply taken a step into the direction of the same kind of killing the Taliban and al queda are doing. I understand it, but I just don't like it--leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If you're going to kill someone in a combat setting, there should be some risk involved--some potential price to pay.
War is horrible-it's a bloody, hurtful, unconscionably and awful thing--and for those reasons, a thing to be avoided if at all possible. Once we completely remove ourselves from the first person awfulness of it, we have made it too much easier to digest, to accept, to live with, and to engage in. And it is going to get much much worse in the coming years, probably in my lifetime.

 

[TexasBred]

[Yes, the goal IS to win--and once war comes, do it by any means neccessary--within reason and within context. You just removed the context. Once war is declared, (all sides involved know danger lurks) no holds are barred except chemical and biological weapons nowadays. Even the use of nukes on Japan happened during a known and pre-existing state of war. There was certainly courage in kamakazi attacks, courage at the Alamo, courage at Thermopylae. In combat, uncommon valor is a common virtue--lots of people have died throwing themselves on grenades, staying behind to perform blocking actions etc, but that is in the context of an existing state of war. There was no existing state of war (declared or inferred) on the morning of Dec 7 1941. There was no existing state of war on Sept 11 2001. There is also no existing state of war when a suicide bomber decides to blow himself up in a busy marketplace, killing and maiming dozens or hundreds of women and children.
The Fort Hood shooter was also an abject coward IMO.

Until war is declared?? It's nothing but a jawboning saber rattling confab until someone fires a shot. All wars or other conflicts have to have a flash point.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I hate to say this the date that will live in infamy is fading with each passing day and generation.
Makes me wonder in 25 years will it even be remembered and the feats of Americas greatest generation.
A generation that took us from horse and buggy to the moon lived and fought through two world wars with the greatest depression thrown in between for good measure. No generation in our history has paid the price they paid and carried us as far.

 

[jedstivers]

No they haven't.
What's sad and strange is they raised the baby boomer generation that started the downfall of this country. Now it's being finished off by I don't know what to call them.
Now I don't mean all baby boomers but just take a moment to reflect on what a lot of them did.

 

[Caustic Burno]

No they haven't.
What's sad and strange is they raised the baby boomer generation that started the downfall of this country. Now it's being finished off by I don't know what to call them.
Now I don't mean all baby boomers but just take a moment to reflect on what a lot of them did.

Jed I think that they had to live such a rough and tough life seeing and living things that no one should have to live through.
They shielded the next generation and it was a time of plenty in this country making too many Boomers forget the price that was paid.

 

[Ryder]

And the failure to remember, to appreciate that generation, and to learn from the history and from those that lived it is the worst part of it.
I fear that at some point it will have to be repeated and probably in a more horrific way.

 

[greybeard]

No they haven't.
What's sad and strange is they raised the baby boomer generation that started the downfall of this country. Now it's being finished off by I don't know what to call them.
Now I don't mean all baby boomers but just take a moment to reflect on what a lot of them did.

I take it you are less than 49 years old.
The baby boomers were born between 1946 and 1964.
Next came Generation X:
Generation X
Born: 1966-1976
Coming of Age: 1988-1994
Age in 2004: 28 to 38
Current Population: 41 million
Sometimes referred to as the "lost" generation, this was the first generation of "latchkey" kids, exposed to lots of daycare and divorce. Known as the generation with the lowest voting participation rate of any generation, Gen Xers were quoted by Newsweek as "the generation that dropped out without ever turning on the news or tuning in to the social issues around them."

Gen X is often characterized by high levels of skepticism, "what's in it for me" attitudes and a reputation for some of the worst music to ever gain popularity. Now, moving into adulthood William Morrow (Generations) cited the childhood divorce of many Gen Xers as "one of the most decisive experiences influencing how Gen Xers will shape their own families".

Gen Xers are arguably the best educated generation with 29% obtaining a bachelor's degree or higher (6% higher than the previous cohort). And, with that education and a growing maturity they are starting to form families with a higher level of caution and pragmatism than their parents demonstrated. Concerns run high over avoiding broken homes, kids growing up without a parent around and financial planning.

Then Generation Y
Generation Y, Echo Boomers or Millenniums
Born: 1977-1994
Coming of Age: 1998-2006
Age in 2004: 10 to 22
Current Population: 71 million
The largest cohort since the Baby Boomers, their high numbers reflect their births as that of their parent generation..the last of the Boomer Is and most of the Boomer II s. Gen Y kids are known as incredibly sophisticated, technology wise, immune to most traditional marketing and sales pitches...as they not only grew up with it all, they've seen it all and been exposed to it all since early childhood.

Gen Y members are much more racially and ethnically diverse and they are much more segmented as an audience aided by the rapid expansion in Cable TV channels, satellite radio, the Internet, e-zines, etc.

Gen Y are less brand loyal and the speed of the Internet has led the cohort to be similarly flexible and changing in its fashion, style consciousness and where and how it is communicated with.

Gen Y kids often raised in dual income or single parent families have been more involved in family purchases...everything from groceries to new cars. One in nine Gen Yers has a credit card co-signed by a parent.

 

[jedstivers]

No they haven't.
What's sad and strange is they raised the baby boomer generation that started the downfall of this country. Now it's being finished off by I don't know what to call them.
Now I don't mean all baby boomers but just take a moment to reflect on what a lot of them did.

I take it you are less than 49 years old.
The baby boomers were born between 1946 and 1964.

My mother is a boomer, my father was a 41 model. I just turned 45.

 

[greybeard]

Ya got an old disco ball hangin in your barn?
:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

 

[jedstivers]

Not quite. Haha.

 

[TexasBred]

Ya got an old disco ball hangin in your barn?
:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

Bet dad has some old' double knit bell bottoms hanging around somewhere. Not to mention a Leisure suit (double knit) of course. :lol2:

 

[Nesikep]

Ww 2 with the Japanese was provoked by embargoes. If you take into account that the US government wanted to join the war but the people were reluctant, you can see how the pieces fit together. The best US ships were not in the harbor, radar did detect the incoming kamikaze planes, and Washington said "'they are probably a flock of geese". They ended an event big enough to get the people to want to go to war and they got it. History repeats itself nicely when you look at 911 then. I would need never argue the tragedy of the lives lost, but I'm very sceptical when the media tells you the cause

 

[Ouachita]

My Grand Dad did clean up at Pearl Harbor. In most people's minds, he never did anything heroic. He did do one of the toughest jobs. I'm not tooting his horn for him. He would not want that. In fact he would kick my ass if he knew I told anyone. The rest of his life was influenced by those weeks. He was both thankful and ashamed he was not there when it happened. He was on a little island southwest of and as far as you can be in Alaska

 

[Caustic Burno]

Ww 2 with the Japanese was provoked by embargoes. If you take into account that the US government wanted to join the war but the people were reluctant, you can see how the pieces fit together. The best US ships were not in the harbor, radar did detect the incoming kamikaze planes, and Washington said "'they are probably a flock of geese". They ended an event big enough to get the people to want to go to war and they got it. History repeats itself nicely when you look at 911 then. I would need never argue the tragedy of the lives lost, but I'm very sceptical when the media tells you the cause

Partially true the Japs were at war with England and all of Asia in there quest for natural resources as well as because of their alliance with Germany and Italy. Roosevelt wanted in the fray that is true, the American people didn't.
They were after Singapore that resulted in the largest military defeat of British forces in history, over 100,000 British troops surrendered to a much smaller Japanese force. There main goal was the Dutch East Indies for oil that is one reason they bombed Port of Darwin Australia.
Manchuria had been taken a few years earlier for there coal reserves. Japan was determined to rule the south Pacific and the only thing standing in their way was the US Pacific fleet. Japan hoped by taking out the US fleet the US would sue for peace leaving them in total control of South East Asia. Japanese leaders knew they could not sustain a war with the US over 18 to 24 months.
With the US putting an oil embargo on Japan they had to take out the US fleet as they would only have enough reserves from there conquest to control the region not fight a protracted war across the Pacific.

Taking out Singapore and Pearl gave them total dominance over the South Pacific.

 

[greybeard]

Ww 2 with the Japanese was provoked by embargoes. If you take into account that the US government wanted to join the war but the people were reluctant, you can see how the pieces fit together. The best US ships were not in the harbor, radar did detect the incoming kamikaze planes, and Washington said "'they are probably a flock of geese". They ended an event big enough to get the people to want to go to war and they got it. History repeats itself nicely when you look at 911 then. I would need never argue the tragedy of the lives lost, but I'm very sceptical when the media tells you the cause

Ahh--the conspiracy theory. Not saying it couldn't have been the case but the number of people that would have to be involved in getting all the pieces fall together would be enormous. 2 people CAN keep a secret--if one of them is dead--200--spread in at LEAST 2 different counties? Not likely.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Ww 2 with the Japanese was provoked by embargoes. If you take into account that the US government wanted to join the war but the people were reluctant, you can see how the pieces fit together. The best US ships were not in the harbor, radar did detect the incoming kamikaze planes, and Washington said "'they are probably a flock of geese". They ended an event big enough to get the people to want to go to war and they got it. History repeats itself nicely when you look at 911 then. I would need never argue the tragedy of the lives lost, but I'm very sceptical when the media tells you the cause

Ahh--the conspiracy theory. Not saying it couldn't have been the case but the number of people that would have to be involved in getting all the pieces fall together would be enormous. 2 people CAN keep a secret--if one of them is dead--200--spread in at LEAST 2 different counties? Not likely.

Japan had started there conquest of the Pacific and Asia in 1937 long before the embargo's were put into place.
The embargoes of then were just as effective as those of today virtually worthless.
There were two navies in place that threatened there empire building one at Pearl the other the British at Singapore both soundly defeated at the start of the war.
The British Navy had the distinct honor of losing the first battleship ever in a battle at sea to the airplane. During this same period they inflicted damages to the Australian Air Force that could interfere with their operations in the Dutch East Indies.
The Japs misjudged the Americans will to fight and banked that the British armed forces were already over extended fighting the Axis in Europe and the Atlantic.
Did the US know war was looming yes. Did political elements want in again yes.
Was it a conspiracy at Pearl no, just plane old stupidity in thinking we were to far away from the Jap Navy to pull off such an attack.
Japan had calculated this as they needed the conquered lands to supply raw materials to the island nation to maintain there new empire.
At the end of the war Japan still had an army of almost 5 million most trapped a long way from home as there Navy had been destroyed.
They had to maintain complete Naval superiority to maintain the empire.