The clones are coming!

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BAGTIC":r2xyxaux said:
"It would be irresponsible to do anything that might increase the likelihood of producing a disabled child."

Then should people who carry 'defective' genes not be allowed to have children? Should women over 30 not be permitted to have children?

The debate about cloning is not one based on science or reason. It is based solely on ignorance and superstition and trying to convince the religious zealots is a waste of time and effort. They don't want to know the facts because they have already made up their minds.

I am not worried about superstition or zealots. I still believe that it is unethical for a scientist or a doctor too create a clone KNOWING that it is likely that the child will be disabled. I also think it is unethical for a person to conceive who knows there is a VERY HIGH probablitiy of producing a severely disabled child; but I am loathe to give ANY govt the power to descide which citizens are allowed too breed and which are NOT. Doctors and scientists are credentialed and licensed by the government and most work at facilities which receive govt grants and licenses. It is well within the legitimate power of government to forbid any doctor, scientist, or other professional to create experimental people. IN TIME, we will know enough about the cloning process to allow such efforts. This technology is WAAAYYY too new for any ethical person too experiment with the lives of human children for their own glory at this time.
 
I am all for human cloning. Auctionboy, auctionboy2, and auctionboy3 could have so good debates.
 
BAGTIC":2gq9rdmy said:
The governm,ent and the preachers should stay out of it and leave the decision to those involved.

If the government or Religion has no place in regulating scientist from trying to create an artificial Human being then what would they have the right to regulate?

You hear a lot about the successful, clonings but not much about the hundreds or thousands of failed, mongoloids that lived days, weeks or months.

Morality does not only have to do with Religion, you can be an atheist and believe it would be in humane to shoot a child in the head for his Nike Shoes. Deep down a person should just know that it is wrong to clone.

And also you should ask yourself why do scientist want to clone so bad in the first place? I will tell you one of the biggest reasons that you do not hear people talk about. They want to clone so one day a clone could be made of yourself for spare parts. I know it sounds like a Movie (and I believe there was one about this "The Island") but this is a real motivation. Scientist have even predicted the life expectancy of a human could be expanded by 50 years with these extra parts.
 
If the government or Religion has no place in regulating scientist from trying to create an artificial Human being then what would they have the right to regulate?

You hear a lot about the successful, clonings but not much about the hundreds or thousands of failed, mongoloids that lived days, weeks or months.

Morality does not only have to do with Religion, you can be an atheist and believe it would be in humane to shoot a child in the head for his Nike Shoes. Deep down a person should just know that it is wrong to clone.

And also you should ask yourself why do scientist want to clone so bad in the first place? I will tell you one of the biggest reasons that you do not hear people talk about. They want to clone so one day a clone could be made of yourself for spare parts. I know it sounds like a Movie (and I believe there was one about this "The Island") but this is a real motivation. Scientist have even predicted the life expectancy of a human could be expanded by 50 years with these extra parts.

Firstly the person wouldn't be artificial at all. Real thoughts real feelings everything. Secondly I saw "the Island" Please take everything they portrayed about cloning and flush that hollywood crap down the toilet. Think of what hollywood did to Wyoming with Brokeback mountain.... ok that is what they did to cloning with the island.

have a good day
 
Beef11":358stuo3 said:
If the government or Religion has no place in regulating scientist from trying to create an artificial Human being then what would they have the right to regulate?

You hear a lot about the successful, clonings but not much about the hundreds or thousands of failed, mongoloids that lived days, weeks or months.

Morality does not only have to do with Religion, you can be an atheist and believe it would be in humane to shoot a child in the head for his Nike Shoes. Deep down a person should just know that it is wrong to clone.

And also you should ask yourself why do scientist want to clone so bad in the first place? I will tell you one of the biggest reasons that you do not hear people talk about. They want to clone so one day a clone could be made of yourself for spare parts. I know it sounds like a Movie (and I believe there was one about this "The Island") but this is a real motivation. Scientist have even predicted the life expectancy of a human could be expanded by 50 years with these extra parts.

Firstly the person wouldn't be artificial at all. Real thoughts real feelings everything. Secondly I saw "the Island" Please take everything they portrayed about cloning and flush that hollywood crap down the toilet. Think of what hollywood did to Wyoming with Brokeback mountain.... ok that is what they did to cloning with the island.

have a good day

You trying to tell me that body parts is not a big motivation behind Cloning? This is something to take seriously. One major project of cloning is the cloning of organs never underestimate how low people can go. Look at some of the experiments Hitler did, you think if he could have cloned himself a few times for extra liver in case he needed it he wouldn't have?

I am sure Wyoming has some Gays in it, and I am sure if cloning of humans is possible some rich guy will have him an extra body around for parts much like the Movie the Island!
 
If cloning an animal, human, or plant will improve our quality of life we should continue the research. AI,ET,or cloning....anything that will help us improve the beef business is welcome. We have a hungary World to feed. As serious Cattle ranchers and farmers it is our responsibility to use all the tools we have available to feed that hungary World.
 
This is the article that I provided a link to in a previous post on this subject. David Hillis is dealing with the cloning of Longhorn cattle but I believe this would apply to any breed of cattle. It's a good article, read it if you like.


A Geneticist's and Breeder's Perspective on Cloning Texas Longhorn Cattle

©David M. Hillis, Professor, School of Biological Sciences, University of Texas, Austin, TX 78712


Recently, there has been considerable discussion about the potential problems and potential benefits of cloning Texas Longhorn cattle. I study the effects, patterns, and consequences of genetic variation, but I do not have any monetary or personal involvement in cloning. I am a Texas Longhorn breeder, but I have not used cloning in my own herd. I have neither opposed nor promoted cloning as part of my job or as a Texas Longhorn breeder. I have followed the developments regarding cloning in the Texas Longhorn breed from an academic and a personal interest, and I have heard many of the arguments for and against cloning and regarding the participation of clones in breed association activities. From a scientific standpoint, I think there is some truth to the arguments being made on both sides of the cloning issue, as well as some misunderstanding on both sides. My hope is that Texas Longhorn breeders will take into account the scientific facts about cloning in any deliberations about how and whether clones should or can be utilized in the breed. Here are some comments about various aspects of cloning that may prove helpful as the various breed associations addresses this important issue.

Health Aspects of Cloning

Pros:

1. Many successful clones of cattle have been produced, and many individual adult cloned cattle appear to be in good health with no major health problems reported to date.

2. There is no evidence (or expectation) that food products from cloned animals are dangerous for human consumption. The genomes of all animals, cloned or otherwise, contain some new mutations that were not present in the previous generation. Although the nature of these mutations may differ somewhat in clones, and additional gene expressional differences occur as well, there is no evidence that any changes that result from cloning present any dangers to humans who may consume the milk or body parts of cloned animals.

3. To my knowledge, no differences or problems in the health of the offspring from cloned cattle (produced through normal sexual reproduction) have been reported, and the offspring of cloned cattle are not expected to differ genetically in any significant manner from offspring produced from non-cloned cattle.


Cons:

1. There is good evidence that clones are generally not as healthy as the original animals from which they are cloned. This is an average, and individual animals can and do vary in their health status. Thus, all clones are not necessarily unhealthy. Nonetheless, the following problems have been documented:

a. In species for which appropriate data can be analyzed, clones have a reduced expected life span. This has been well documented in species with short generation times, such as mice. However, as the expected life spans of cattle are much greater than mice, and as the number of cloned cattle of sufficient age is not yet available, the extent of this expected reduced life span has not yet been sufficiently documented for cattle. Nonetheless, sudden deaths among previously healthy-looking clones have been documented in animals cloned from adult somatic cells, including cattle and sheep. There is evidence for some changes in genetic elements called telomeric sequences, which occur at the ends of chromosomes. The reduction of these sequences have been implicated in the normal aging of cells. However, the data from cloned cells have not been consistent, with some clones showing shorter telemetric sequences, and others showing longer telemetric sequences. It is possible that life span may simply be made more variable by cloning, with some clones actually living longer than normal, and others showing a reduced life span. There are not yet enough data from cattle to have a definitive answer to the question of the life span of cloned cattle, but most researchers expect cloned cattle will have a shorter life span than normal.

b. Cloned animals tend to have compromised immune systems and thus higher rates of infection. Again, this is better studied in cloned mice than in cloned cattle.

c. Some clones (including some cloned calves) are born abnormally large. These animals have abnormally enlarged organs, which usually lead to breathing and other problems. The reasons for this syndrome are not well understood. Companies that carry out commercial cloning do not pass these unhealthy clones onto the customer; instead, these clearly unhealthy animals are terminated.

d. There are gene expression problems in at least some cloned animals. In mice, researchers studied more than 10,000 liver and placental cells of cloned mice, and found that about 4% of the genes function abnormally in these cells of clones. These abnormal functions are not related to direct mutations, but instead to abnormal expression of otherwise normal genes. The cloning in this study was from stem cells, rather than adult somatic cells, and so it is not yet clear if similar problems occur from cloning of adult cattle.


2. Repeated, serial cloning of the same clonal family will result in the accumulation of deleterious mutations through time, as well as increase the risk for gene expression problems. Each clonal generation will be expected to have more of these genetic errors than the previous generation. Each time an animal is cloned (and indeed, every time any cell is replicated), a few errors are introduced into the replicated genome. The effects are generally considered to be small each generation, but they result in some of the problems noted above. However, it is clear that repeated, serial cloning is not advisable. The clones will not improve from generation to generation. If cloning were perfect, the best that could be expected is that the 2nd generation clones would be as good (from a genetic standpoint) as the original animal, or the 1st generation clone. However, since mutations (including nucleotide substitutions, and deletions of regions such as the telomeres) do occur each time a clone is made, a 1st generation clone is expected to be genetically more fit than a 2nd (or subsequent) generation clone.


Cloning and the human food supply


The US Food and Drug Administration has stated that food from cloned animals is safe for human consumption. However, because of public concern, and because additional studies are still being conducted, the restrictions on selling products from cloned animals for human consumption have not been lifted. This is unlikely to present an issue for some time for cattle, as cloned animals are too expensive to be used for anything except breeding purposes, but it is true that cloned animals can not contribute to the commercial food supply at this time.


How can clones be utilized to improve the Texas Longhorn breed?


1. One obvious beneficial use of cloning concerns the case of an exceptional steer that the owner regrets having castrated. The resulting cloned bull could then contribute to the genetic diversity of the Texas Longhorn herd, which would otherwise not be possible. In such a case, cloning the steer has some clear benefits. The same principle holds for cloning a freemartin (a sterile female fraternal twin of a bull calf). The clone of a freemartin would not be sterile, since the clone would not share placental circulation with a bull calf, as did the original freemartin.

2. Cloning can be used to replace a particularly valuable animal that has died pre-maturely, as in an accident, or has been injured so that it can no longer reproduce. Cloning could also be used to replace a valuable animal that has to be put down because of the threat of an infectious disease outbreak in a herd.

3. Exceptional cows can be cloned so that the clones can produce more offspring than the original cow could produce on her own.

4. In some cases of bacterial diseases that prevent an animal from being used in a breeding program, a disease-free clone may be produced.

5. Many traits, such as horn length, are affected by both genetic and environmental effects. Thus, it is true that if one were to clone a cow with exceptionally long horns, the clones may well develop longer (or otherwise different) horns from the original, especially if they are kept in a superior nutritional environment. Environmental factors that may affect trait development include nutrition provided in the uterus of the birth dam, the birth dam's milking ability, supplemental food and minerals provided to the calf, the range conditions where the calf is raised, the temperatures at which the calf is raised, etc. However, it should be noted that none of these changes affect the genetic potential of the clone. Thus, from a genetic standpoint, any two clones from a single individual are expected to have the same genetic potential for any given trait. In other words, the shortest-horned clone from a group of clones has the same genetic potential to produce long-horned offspring as does the longest-horned clone from the same animal. This is another reason that serial cloning (for instance, re-cloning the longest-horned clone from a group of clones) is not advisable. The environmental effects cannot be passed on from generation to generation, and some additional degradation of the genome will occur through accumulation of deleterious mutations.



Can cloning potentially hurt the Texas Longhorn breed?

1. Inbreeding of cattle is a potential danger for any breed. Inbreeding occurs when the number of genetically distinct animals in a herd is reduced, so that the effective population size is small. Traditionally, the greatest sources of inbreeding in cattle have been (1) intensive linebreeding to establish a morphologically uniform breed type (not much of a problem in Texas Longhorns, but a considerable source of genetic uniformity in other breeds); and (2) the repeated use of a relatively small number of popular herd sires. Inbreeding has been much less of a problem in Texas Longhorns than in most other breeds, in part because Texas Longhorn breeders actually select for diversity in some traits (such as color). This has had the benefit that Texas Longhorns have maintained a far greater level of genetic diversity than have most other breeds of cattle. This genetic diversity translates into the greater disease resistance, adaptability, and general health that characterizes Texas Longhorns.
Cloning of cows has the same potential to decrease genetic diversity as does repeated use of the same bull. If both of these factors are used simultaneously, genetic diversity would be reduced dramatically. However, inbreeding is usually viewed as a personal choice made by an individual breeder, and not something that should be regulated by the breed association.

2. There is a potential of introducing new deleterious mutations into the breed through cloning. However, new deleterious mutations can also be introduced through sexual reproduction. In general, the risk of this problem with cloning is not expected to be substantially greater than from other forms of reproduction. However, since cloned animals are relatively expensive, there may be a smaller likelihood that owners would be willing to cull cloned animals if they exhibited a genetic defect.

3. As noted earlier, if serial cloning is conducted, there is a much greater danger of accumulated mutations. There are no added benefits of 2nd generational cloning, and there are increased risks to the breed that are associated with this practice.


Entry of clones into shows and contests

Cattle shows and contests are generally considered showcases for breeders and owners, who have worked to produce new genetic combinations of cattle through their breeding programs. There are elements of skill and chance in producing the best show cow or bull, or in producing the longest-horned Texas Longhorn. Breeders study the best genetic lines, and experiment by crossing cows with bulls that they think will produce unique or superior genetic combinations.

Cloned animals, in contrast, produce a known and non-unique genetic combination. Clones are replicates of animals—typically animals that are already known to be among the best in the breed. From a genetic standpoint, allowing entry of clones into a show or contest is exactly like allowing the same animal to be entered twice in the same show (perhaps once by the breeder and once by the owner). Should the same animal be allowed to claim more than one spot in a show? Should the same animal be allowed to compete year after year in the same age class?

Allowing clones to compete in a show or contest removes the elements of breeding skill and genetic chance. From a genetic point of view, it does not seem reasonable to let clones (of known genetic potential) compete against animals of original, new genetic combinations (or unknown genetic potential). However, allowing the non-clonal offspring of clones to compete in shows is reasonable, since these offspring have the same level of genetic variability (and the same chances for quality, both good and bad) as any of the offspring of the original animal.

Likewise, there may be reasons to compete clones against one another. Although the genetic potential of the animal is known, the environmental conditions may differ. So, a person may wish to demonstrate the effects of a superior diet, for instance. For this reason, it would not be unreasonable to have a separate category for clonal animals in competitions.


Recommendations

1. There are legitimate reasons to clone Texas Longhorns that can result in potential benefits to the breed. There are also potential dangers in cloning. Thus, the decision to clone or not clone requires an individual choice, based on the scientific factors as well as personal views. The same could be said about many other choices made by individual Texas Longhorn breeders. I do not think there is a scientific reason to prohibit clones from breed registration. Instead, this is a matter of personal preference, and thus a matter for association membership to decide, both collectively as well as on an individual basis.

2. If clones are to be allowed in shows or contests, such as the Horn Showcase, I recommend that separate categories be created for clones. The elements of skill are limited in the case of clones to nutritional and other environmental conditions of the calves, whereas competitors who do not use cloning are competing primarily in producing new genetic combinations of cattle. The two objectives are clearly distinct, and it does not make sense to combine and confuse the competitions.

3. Offspring of cloned cattle, produced through normal sexual reproduction, should be allowed to compete in the standard category of shows and contests (that is, compete against other non-clonal animals). Using a cloned cow to produce new genetic combinations is similar to using the semen (through artificial insemination) from a popular bull. In both cases, methods are being used to increase the breeding opportunities of the respective animal.

4. Serial cloning of animals (more than one generation of cloning, or the cloning of clones) should be discouraged, and the association should consider whether registration of such animals is in the best interest of the breed. Each subsequent generation of clones will accumulate additional genetic mutations. The probability that these mutations will be deleterious far outweighs the chance that they will be beneficial, so a genetic degradation of the successive clones is expected.

5. Ownership of cell lines and genetic material should be treated exactly like ownership of the animal itself. When a person sells an animal, he or she is free to sell partial ownership of the animal, as long as the conditions are made clear at the time of sale. The same principle should hold true for cloned animals, cell lines, and genetic material that can potentially be cloned. Any retention of such material should be treated like partial ownership of the animal, since the clones are not individually distinct. Otherwise, ownership of any genetic material or cell lines should be transferred along with the animal from which they are taken.

I hope these comments will prove helpful to Texas Longhorn breeders as they consider the pros and cons of cloning. Please feel free to send questions or comments to [email protected].
 
Shorthornguy":1rtyxj4c said:
If cloning an animal, human, or plant will improve our quality of life we should continue the research. AI,ET,or cloning....anything that will help us improve the beef business is welcome. We have a hungary World to feed. As serious Cattle ranchers and farmers it is our responsibility to use all the tools we have available to feed that hungary World.

There is no problem feeding the World. There is plenty of food to go around. The problem is in some countries you can not get the greedy leaders or War Lords to buy and distribute food instead of guns and Mercedes.
 
Shorthornguy":2lxny4gd said:
If cloning an animal, human, or plant will improve our quality of life we should continue the research. AI,ET,or cloning....anything that will help us improve the beef business is welcome. We have a hungary World to feed. As serious Cattle ranchers and farmers it is our responsibility to use all the tools we have available to feed that hungary World.

Feeding the world? We have the resources already, but the problem is things cost money and giving away that much is a tough pill to swallow. Cloning at very high prices wouldn't help feed the world. When cloning a calf and raising it on a bottle is cheaper then early cow costs then you could make the argument cloning could feed the world.
 
auctionboy":1lo0kt29 said:
Shorthornguy":1lo0kt29 said:
If cloning an animal, human, or plant will improve our quality of life we should continue the research. AI,ET,or cloning....anything that will help us improve the beef business is welcome. We have a hungary World to feed. As serious Cattle ranchers and farmers it is our responsibility to use all the tools we have available to feed that hungary World.

Feeding the world? We have the resources already, but the problem is things cost money and giving away that much is a tough pill to swallow. Cloning at very high prices wouldn't help feed the world. When cloning a calf and raising it on a bottle is cheaper then early cow costs then you could make the argument cloning could feed the world.

The biggest problem with "feeding the world" is not so much cost; BUT if you give it away in a country you destroy the value of their farm products. If they have no market for their harvest their farmers go out of business and you are stuck with GREATER demand for food aid. Also many unscrupulous countries and individuals have taken the free food aid grains and sold it back on the global market; thus both allowing their countrymen to starve AND competing with the host country on the global market decreasing global price. I am all for helping the needy; but us feeding the world does come with serious drawbacks.
 
I think the use of cloned animals to help feed the world is pretty far fetched. I don't see how clones fit into this picture. We already have cattle to produce beef.
 
Rustler9":18mr9j9j said:
I think the use of cloned animals to help feed the world is pretty far fetched. I don't see how clones fit into this picture. We already have cattle to produce beef.

I agree, the only reason for cloning animals is for the Show World, repopulating of extinct animals and research so one day they can do it for Humans. I doubt feeding the world has anything to do with it.
 
auctionboy":2zww4z77 said:
Don't you think cloning cheapens the show world?

I think froofrooing them up with all that hair cheapens the show world.

dun
 
Feeding the world? We have the resources already, but the problem is things cost money and giving away that much is a tough pill to swallow. Cloning at very high prices wouldn't help feed the world. When cloning a calf and raising it on a bottle is cheaper then early cow costs then you could make the argument cloning could feed the world.

I don't think you're real familiar with cloning. Genetic advancement improves efficency, that helps feed the world.

I think froofrooing them up with all that hair cheapens the show world.

I agree Dun
 
The point was that cloning research need to continue as it may help us improve the beef business. The winds of change will always blow. By intermingling ET with cloning we may be able to produce disease resistant cattle. Look where the Beef business was 40 years ago and consider where it will be 40 years from now.We need to keep an open mind and explore all the possibilities. Whether its Beef or Beer, we still need to feed the World. That beer sounds good....see ya later. :D
 
Shorthornguy":30m7v3tt said:
The point was that cloning research need to continue as it may help us improve the beef business. The winds of change will always blow. By intermingling ET with cloning we may be able to produce disease resistant cattle. Look where the Beef business was 40 years ago and consider where it will be 40 years from now.We need to keep an open mind and explore all the possibilities. Whether its Beef or Beer, we still need to feed the World. That beer sounds good....see ya later. :D

I think we need more informed beef raisers ... or less of the other.
 
dun":3ivuegtd said:
auctionboy":3ivuegtd said:
Don't you think cloning cheapens the show world?

I think froofrooing them up with all that hair cheapens the show world.

dun

:lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

That's priceless.

Alice
 
Beef11":2ytdbjny said:
I don't think you're real familiar with cloning. Genetic advancement improves efficency, that helps feed the world.

If you think this cloning is about feeding the world, or making cattle more efficient you are crazy. It is all about human cloning. These scientist could care less about cloning cattle for efficiency improvements. They want to use this technology to generate human organs. And then one day to clone a human, just because they want to. They want to play God and create, it is like the race to the moon, they want the notoriety and prestige of doing it first. Everything else is a smoke screen.

Look at the progression of cloning, first tadpoles, then fish, mice, sheep, monkey, cattle, cat, Mule, Horse. They are not trying to feed the world they are trying to perfect the process till one of them finally clones a human. What advantage is there to cloning a Mule? Mules can not reproduce so they will never improve the breed.
 
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