The Challenge

[vclavin]

How are things going with the 0702 bull are you going to have Canadian semen up by midJuly-I'd like to try him at both places. Has he ever been tested for the Leptin gene-I am just curious. One of the major feedyards and a place we bought alot of cattle from are convinced it is of value to test for it.

He is at the collection facility now. I should have some ready by the first part of June as he should clear all the tests by then. By mid July I hope he is home and has bred a bunch of cows by then.

He hasn't been tested specifically for the Leptin gene. He has been Igentity profiled and he scored an 8 for marbling and a 7 for percent chice which is certainly on the high end for the Hereford tests I have seen. I visited a year or two ago with the Igentity rep about Leptin test and I think at one time they did test for it, but dont do it exclusively anymore. I got the impression that they beleive their new test is more accurate now but I have no idea if that is true or is just a marketing thing. It is quite possible that the leptin is part of their DNA analysis but I am unsure on that.

May I ask what his tenderness score was?
Valerie

 

[smnherf]

Did you take some daughter pics for me-if they are anything like his dam they should be pretty nice.

I must confess that with weather the wayit is, picture taking hasn't been the highest priority here. I had hoped to picture a bunch of the cows this spring, but it just hasn't worked out yet.

The daughters have done everything that I have asked of them. All calved unnassisted, good uddered and mothered up good. I hope to get some pictures soon.

 

[smnherf]

How are things going with the 0702 bull are you going to have Canadian semen up by midJuly-I'd like to try him at both places. Has he ever been tested for the Leptin gene-I am just curious. One of the major feedyards and a place we bought alot of cattle from are convinced it is of value to test for it.

He is at the collection facility now. I should have some ready by the first part of June as he should clear all the tests by then. By mid July I hope he is home and has bred a bunch of cows by then.

He hasn't been tested specifically for the Leptin gene. He has been Igentity profiled and he scored an 8 for marbling and a 7 for percent chice which is certainly on the high end for the Hereford tests I have seen. I visited a year or two ago with the Igentity rep about Leptin test and I think at one time they did test for it, but dont do it exclusively anymore. I got the impression that they beleive their new test is more accurate now but I have no idea if that is true or is just a marketing thing. It is quite possible that the leptin is part of their DNA analysis but I am unsure on that.

May I ask what his tenderness score was?
Valerie

He was a 4. Not sure what that really means in terms of the Hereford population.

 

[vclavin]

How are things going with the 0702 bull are you going to have Canadian semen up by midJuly-I'd like to try him at both places. Has he ever been tested for the Leptin gene-I am just curious. One of the major feedyards and a place we bought alot of cattle from are convinced it is of value to test for it.

He is at the collection facility now. I should have some ready by the first part of June as he should clear all the tests by then. By mid July I hope he is home and has bred a bunch of cows by then.

He hasn't been tested specifically for the Leptin gene. He has been Igentity profiled and he scored an 8 for marbling and a 7 for percent chice which is certainly on the high end for the Hereford tests I have seen. I visited a year or two ago with the Igentity rep about Leptin test and I think at one time they did test for it, but dont do it exclusively anymore. I got the impression that they beleive their new test is more accurate now but I have no idea if that is true or is just a marketing thing. It is quite possible that the leptin is part of their DNA analysis but I am unsure on that.

May I ask what his tenderness score was?
Valerie

He was a 4. Not sure what that really means in terms of the Hereford population.[/quote]


Thanks, I was just curious. I think, if not mistaken, the leptin gene is taken into account with the marbling score. I'd think 8 was really good considering Hereford aren't considered good marblers, at least that's what i understand.
Valerie

 

[xbred]

"maternal breed"????

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Dylan,

Your post sounds a lot like a conversation I had recently with a friend.

It looks like you made a list of just about all the traits that arent covered by an EPD with the exception of calf vigor and feed conversion. Many of the above mentioned traits like fertility, longevity, feet and legs, udder quality and mothering ability/attentiveness affect net profitability a lot more than the WW, YW, milk and carcass epds do. I am not trying to bash the epd system as I have used it in the past for positive changes and will continue to use it. For a vast majority, it has come down to a marketing tool rather than a selection tool to breed better cattle. As much as people harp on the pitfalls of single trait epd selection, the same case could be had for EPDs as a single trait selection. As we select for higher and higher epds, fertility, feet and legs, mothering ability, hardiness, fleshing ability, longevity, libido, mature weight, and others convenience traits have been lost in the hysteria.

I tend to think that a super sound, highly maternal, feed efficient, long lasting female, that is absolutely trouble free with average performance and carcass traits will be highly profitable in most commercial operations.

I agree totally. :tiphat:

Any thoughts regarding my question?

 

[cbcr]

Lot of good discussion and comments on here.

I think too many times that producers do try and make a single trait selection with the thought that what they are hoping to change can be achieved faster. But like Doc said, this is a wrong approach. There is a patern to traits so selections has to be made very carefully.

While many use EPD's for BW, WW, YW, Milk, etc., there are no EPD's that show functional traits. One EPD trait that I don't see how it can be accurate is the stayability one. To me, unless you can track an animal from birth to death, there is no way to accurately have a stayability EPD.

I have seen several posts, not only on this one where you are all talking about good udders, feet and legs, etc. But the only time we see individual traits are in the sire catalogs.

In the dairy industry there is an analysis that has been used for years called aAa. Basically what aAa is is a series of number 1 thru 6 and each number correlates to certain traits. Bulls are coded from strongest to weakest and females are coded from weakest to strongest. So if a female is coded 123456 the ideally you would want to mate her to a bull that is coded 123456. This system works for all dairy breeds. I don't know if anything like this can be done in the beef industry or not.

Another thing, I feel that trait analysis would be much easier to monitor and follow than EPD's. Why? Well mainly trait analysis is based on the appearance of the animal so weights wouldn't be required. Trait selection along with EPD's would give producers better information with which to make breeding decisions.

 

[dun]

Lot of good discussion and comments on here.

I think too many times that producers do try and make a single trait selection with the thought that what they are hoping to change can be achieved faster. But like Doc said, this is a wrong approach. There is a patern to traits so selections has to be made very carefully.

While many use EPD's for BW, WW, YW, Milk, etc., there are no EPD's that show functional traits. One EPD trait that I don't see how it can be accurate is the stayability one. To me, unless you can track an animal from birth to death, there is no way to accurately have a stayability EPD.

I have seen several posts, not only on this one where you are all talking about good udders, feet and legs, etc. But the only time we see individual traits are in the sire catalogs.

In the dairy industry there is an analysis that has been used for years called aAa. Basically what aAa is is a series of number 1 thru 6 and each number correlates to certain traits. Bulls are coded from strongest to weakest and females are coded from weakest to strongest. So if a female is coded 123456 the ideally you would want to mate her to a bull that is coded 123456. This system works for all dairy breeds. I don't know if anything like this can be done in the beef industry or not.

Another thing, I feel that trait analysis would be much easier to monitor and follow than EPD's. Why? Well mainly trait analysis is based on the appearance of the animal so weights wouldn't be required. Trait selection along with EPD's would give producers better information with which to make breeding decisions.

Stayability isn;t really that hard to figure. If she's still having and raising calves as 6 or 7 year old she must be a keeper. That adds up to stayability in my book. We've bought a lot of 7-10 year olds that still were raising calves into their teens, one into her 20s. That pretty much says it all for me.

 

[vclavin]

Lot of good discussion and comments on here.

I think too many times that producers do try and make a single trait selection with the thought that what they are hoping to change can be achieved faster. But like Doc said, this is a wrong approach. There is a patern to traits so selections has to be made very carefully.

While many use EPD's for BW, WW, YW, Milk, etc., there are no EPD's that show functional traits. One EPD trait that I don't see how it can be accurate is the stayability one. To me, unless you can track an animal from birth to death, there is no way to accurately have a stayability EPD.

I have seen several posts, not only on this one where you are all talking about good udders, feet and legs, etc. But the only time we see individual traits are in the sire catalogs.

In the dairy industry there is an analysis that has been used for years called aAa. Basically what aAa is is a series of number 1 thru 6 and each number correlates to certain traits. Bulls are coded from strongest to weakest and females are coded from weakest to strongest. So if a female is coded 123456 the ideally you would want to mate her to a bull that is coded 123456. This system works for all dairy breeds. I don't know if anything like this can be done in the beef industry or not.

Another thing, I feel that trait analysis would be much easier to monitor and follow than EPD's. Why? Well mainly trait analysis is based on the appearance of the animal so weights wouldn't be required. Trait selection along with EPD's would give producers better information with which to make breeding decisions.

Since beef producers are after traits that the eye can't always evaluate, the EPD's are necessary, at least I feel they are needed. The EPD's give me an idea of where I am and aid in achievement of where I want my herd to be .
Valerie

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

EPD's ain't worth much if the rest of the cow ain't there. Just look for the oldest cow you got that just keeps on doing her job and raise more like her.

 

[cbcr]

EPD's ain't worth much if the rest of the cow ain't there. Just look for the oldest cow you got that just keeps on doing her job and raise more like her.

exactly, we all know that EPD's are important, but they don't tell the whole story.

I remember especially in the dairy industry producers only selected bulls that would have a high predicted difference for milk. They didn't take into any consideration functionality, soundness or any other traits. Basically this is being true in the beef industry today, some producers are chasing only the numbers. It costs too much to raise replacements and if they aren't functionally sound and have to be sold after one or two calves, that isn't very profitable.

Another thing, I mention in an earlier post about the stayability EPD. I need to try to clarify this some. Like Dun said he has bought cows that are older, and if the cattle are registered age is easy to track. But there are some seedstock producers that sell off cows when they are 6 years of age and when they do, the buyer has the option of paying a few dollars more to get the registration papers. But many of these cows end up in commercial herds, so being able to track the age and how old cows are on these cows are no longer valid. When this happens, then how accurate can a stayability EPD be?

 

[vclavin]

EPD's ain't worth much if the rest of the cow ain't there. Just look for the oldest cow you got that just keeps on doing her job and raise more like her.

I do have a 11 year old cow still giving good calves. Problem is, as a breeder, producers want faster growing calves and better carcass .. to do that .. I have to sell older cows to keep the younger cows with better EPD's in order to improve the genetics of the bulls I'm trying to sell and compete with high dollar breeders like Circle A and Sydenstrikers. Therefore, not many older cows can stay due to the need for better genetics. This is why most big breeders sell off cows at 5 years old ... need room for the new girls.
Valerie

 

[dun]

EPD's ain't worth much if the rest of the cow ain't there. Just look for the oldest cow you got that just keeps on doing her job and raise more like her.

I do have a 11 year old cow still giving good calves. Problem is, as a breeder, producers want faster growing calves and better carcass .. to do that .. I have to sell older cows to keep the younger cows with better EPD's in order to improve the genetics of the bulls I'm trying to sell and compete with high dollar breeders like Circle A and Sydenstrikers. Therefore, not many older cows can stay due to the need for better genetics. This is why most big breeders sell off cows at 5 years old ... need room for the new girls.
Valerie

Define "better genetics".

 

[DOC HARRIS]

EPD's ain't worth much if the rest of the cow ain't there. Just look for the oldest cow you got that just keeps on doing her job and raise more like her.

I do have a 11 year old cow still giving good calves. Problem is, as a breeder, producers want faster growing calves and better carcass .. to do that .. I have to sell older cows to keep the younger cows with better EPD's in order to improve the genetics of the bulls I'm trying to sell and compete with high dollar breeders like Circle A and Sydenstrikers. Therefore, not many older cows can stay due to the need for better genetics. This is why most big breeders sell off cows at 5 years old ... need room for the new girls.
Valerie

Define "better genetics".

dun-

I seem to be a little confused by your question here! After the many years of explanation of Phenotypic and Genetic improvement protocols, and the explanations given by dozens of posters on CT, I am surprised that you appear to be uncertain as to the meaning of 'better genetics". Of course, I do understand that what is one person's "better genetics" could be another person's confused adjustment factors relating to across breed EPD's. 'Better genetics' can be expounded upon and clarified by a thorough perusal of the current year's work of "across-breed" adjustment factors released by USMARC. They exemplify and define 'better genetics' in a well-defined manner.

Related link: http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/public ... _115=25494

DOC HARRIS

 

[dun]

dun-

I seem to be a little confused by your question here! After the many years of explanation of Phenotypic and Genetic improvement protocols, and the explanations given by dozens of posters on CT, I am surprised that you appear to be uncertain as to the meaning of 'better genetics". Of course, I do understand that what is one person's "better genetics" could be another person's confused adjustment factors relating to across breed EPD's. 'Better genetics' can be expounded upon and clarified by a thorough perusal of the current year's work of "across-breed" adjustment factors released by USMARC. They exemplify and define 'better genetics' in a well-defined manner.

Related link: http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/public ... _115=25494

DOC HARRIS

Based on EPDs is better a higher WW or YW? Maybe more milk. The problem with a lot of breeders is that "better" actually translates to newer or more currently popular. Is the high WW that translates into a high YW "better" when it turns into a 1700 pound or FS 7-8 cow? There is an optimum for everything. Balanced is what is needed not "better". If the cow herd isn;t balanced why would they be kept around till they're 5-6-7 years old, they should have been replaced long before with cattle that better fit that balance. But as was pointed out when you get rid of those young cows you lose the ability to judge/quantify their ability to stay productive.

 

[vclavin]

dun-

I seem to be a little confused by your question here! After the many years of explanation of Phenotypic and Genetic improvement protocols, and the explanations given by dozens of posters on CT, I am surprised that you appear to be uncertain as to the meaning of 'better genetics". Of course, I do understand that what is one person's "better genetics" could be another person's confused adjustment factors relating to across breed EPD's. 'Better genetics' can be expounded upon and clarified by a thorough perusal of the current year's work of "across-breed" adjustment factors released by USMARC. They exemplify and define 'better genetics' in a well-defined manner.

Related link: http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/public ... _115=25494

DOC HARRIS

Based on EPDs is better a higher WW or YW? Maybe more milk. The problem with a lot of breeders is that "better" actually translates to newer or more currently popular. Is the high WW that translates into a high YW "better" when it turns into a 1700 pound or FS 7-8 cow? There is an optimum for everything. Balanced is what is needed not "better". If the cow herd isn;t balanced why would they be kept around till they're 5-6-7 years old, they should have been replaced long before with cattle that better fit that balance. But as was pointed out when you get rid of those young cows you lose the ability to judge/quantify their ability to stay productive.

There's always room for improvement in carcass qualities. Trick is not to go backwards on other important traits.
Valerie

 

[dun]

There's always room for improvement in carcass qualities. Trick is not to go backwards on other important traits.
Valerie

Depends on the market you're trying to reach. Too much RE is just as bad as too little, marbeling can be carried to extremes. We are seriously in the carcass improvement phase now but that didn;t just start. It didn;t have as heavy an influence in years past but it was alwasy a consideration even while trying to get cows that performed acceptably on HE fescue. That's all part of the balance and optimum. But as has been said many times before, your results may vary. What works on one farm with one managment may be a total bust on another. Our cows if moved to an environement that had good grass and no endophyte might turn out to be overly fat slackards just as cows that perform well for 3waycross purtnear died when moved to fescue.

 

[W.T]

Doc got me thinking in another post about the reality of multi trait selection.


Lets say you are in the process of building up a registered or commercial Angus(substitute any maternal breed you like) cow herd, and you have decided on the following functional selection emphasis in that pursuit. Depending on the breed of choice and regional climate a few of these preferences may not apply.


As regards ww growth, breed average.

Less than average BW YES BELOW AVG

Less then average mature height. YES

Less than average mature weight. YES

Things I want to be more than average , I wouldn't want to be percieved as a total under achiever.

Fertility, as much as possible, I am a glutton, both sires and dams, is there such a thing as too much. NO THERE CANNOT BE TO MUCH

Structural soundness of feet, as the average Angus anymore is very poor footed. YES MAY BE THE TOUGHEST TRAIT TO FIX

Udder quality, above average for sure. HOW GOOD DO THEY NEED TO BE

Disposition as good as possible with out compromising maternal protectiveness and attentiveness. YES

Mothering ability, can you have too much? WE HAD SOME TARENTAISE THAT WOULD CHASE YOU FOR 1/2 MILE UNTIL THERE CALVES WERE 3 MO THAT WAS A BIT MUCH

Calving ease, more than average. YES

Constitution, more than average, seems the really growthy calves are quite often more prone to get sick than the average calves, probably mother natures desire for average. AVG SEEMS TO HOLD UP BOTH ENDS HERE

Longevity, as much as I can get, I think. HAD SOME TARENTISE COWS THAT I BOUGHT AS 10yr olds AND GOT 10 MORE CALVES STILL HAVE LOTS OF PERCENTAGE CATTLE.

Hair coat, for sub arctic weather, more than average. SLICK HERE

Maternal attentiveness, a trait that seems to be waning. In the seventies and eighties the Black cows either were always with their calves, or knew where their calves were at all times. When you showed up and it was time to go they would go get their calves and they would stay mothered up through the entire move regardless of distance. WE HAVE USED SOME EXT AND THAT HAS HELPED A LITTLE

For breeding bulls above average for a clean tight sheath, definitely no
long loose pendulous sheaths. And no tolerance for bulls that prolapse there prepuce. YES

Libido, above average. YES

Servicing ability, above average for agility and athleticism. YES BIG LONG BULLS SEEM TO LACK HERE. I LIKE THE SHORTER COUPLED THEY SEEM TO LAST LONGER AND DON'T GET HURT

And last, but not least, the ability to do all of the above under a management system who's profit strategy is optimal productivity utilizing the most cost effective regionally accessible inputs. THIS IS A LIFE TIME QUEST

So in light of that multi selection emphasis, my experience has been that finding all of those in one package is almost impossible. STILL LOOKING

So the question becomes what are you willing to compromise and what system in terms of accessing degree of specific trait improvement required vs degree of specific trait compromise you can risk, are you going to employ? THE PLACES THAT WE CAN GET ALONG WITHOUT ARE CARCASS AND GROWTH, AND UDDERS IF YOU NEVER TOUCH THE COW AND SHE CAN HAVE 12 CALVES THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH

To me this is the ongoing challenge with breeding stock selection especially when it comes to sires because of the degree of proportional population impact.

Doc, your thoughts and the thoughts of anyone else who wants to wade in would be appreciated. :tiphat:

Well Dylan we are going to wade in and I hope I don't drown after Docs reply.

 

[vclavin]

There's always room for improvement in carcass qualities. Trick is not to go backwards on other important traits.
Valerie

Depends on the market you're trying to reach. Too much RE is just as bad as too little, marbeling can be carried to extremes. We are seriously in the carcass improvement phase now but that didn;t just start. It didn;t have as heavy an influence in years past but it was alwasy a consideration even while trying to get cows that performed acceptably on HE fescue. That's all part of the balance and optimum. But as has been said many times before, your results may vary. What works on one farm with one managment may be a total bust on another. Our cows if moved to an environement that had good grass and no endophyte might turn out to be overly fat slackards just as cows that perform well for 3waycross purtnear died when moved to fescue.

I have a goal of 1.21 sq in per 100lbs body weight and prime with low backfat - under 1/3". I'm slowly getting there. I've heard that herds up north marble better than southern cattle and southern cattle have better RE. Environment? Or what producers feel they need to breed for their environment?
ALso, your above statement is the very reason we have those EPD's that many have no faith in. No, they don't tell you which cattle will live in whose environment, but they will tell you how they perform without outside influence (environment).
Valerie

 

[dun]

ALso, your above statement is the very reason we have those EPD's that many have no faith in. No, they don't tell you which cattle will live in whose environment, but they will tell you how they perform without outside influence (environment).
Valerie

EPDs are a brick in the foundation. But without accuracy it can be a pretty wobbly brick.