The Challenge

[Dylan Biggs]

Doc got me thinking in another post about the reality of multi trait selection.


Lets say you are in the process of building up a registered or commercial Angus(substitute any maternal breed you like) cow herd, and you have decided on the following functional selection emphasis in that pursuit. Depending on the breed of choice and regional climate a few of these preferences may not apply.


As regards ww growth, breed average.

Less than average BW

Less then average mature height.

Less than average mature weight.

Things I want to be more than average , I wouldn't want to be percieved as a total under achiever.

Fertility, as much as possible, I am a glutton, both sires and dams, is there such a thing as too much.

Structural soundness of feet, as the average Angus anymore is very poor footed.

Udder quality, above average for sure.

Disposition as good as possible with out compromising maternal protectiveness and attentiveness.

Mothering ability, can you have too much?

Calving ease, more than average.

Constitution, more than average, seems the really growthy calves are quite often more prone to get sick than the average calves, probably mother natures desire for average.

Longevity, as much as I can get, I think.

Hair coat, for sub arctic weather, more than average.

Maternal attentiveness, a trait that seems to be waning. In the seventies and eighties the Black cows either were always with their calves, or knew where their calves were at all times. When you showed up and it was time to go they would go get their calves and they would stay mothered up through the entire move regardless of distance.

For breeding bulls above average for a clean tight sheath, definitely no
long loose pendulous sheaths. And no tolerance for bulls that prolapse there prepuce.

Libido, above average.

Servicing ability, above average for agility and athleticism.

And last, but not least, the ability to do all of the above under a management system who's profit strategy is optimal productivity utilizing the most cost effective regionally accessible inputs.

So in light of that multi selection emphasis, my experience has been that finding all of those in one package is almost impossible.

So the question becomes what are you willing to compromise and what system in terms of accessing degree of specific trait improvement required vs degree of specific trait compromise you can risk, are you going to employ?

To me this is the ongoing challenge with breeding stock selection especially when it comes to sires because of the degree of proportional population impact.

Doc, your thoughts and the thoughts of anyone else who wants to wade in would be appreciated. :tiphat:

 

[KNERSIE]

Servicing ability, above average for agility and athleticism.

Just my observation from using 14 month old bulls for clean up on mature cows... those very long bodied bulls are usually more clumsy breeders as yearlings, while the better balanced ( shorter coupled, if you like ) bulls seem to fare a lot better. As twos the difference isn't nearly as big as in young yearlings.

So although it doesn't answer your question I'm willing to give up some body length to rather be able to sell yearling bulls that can go to work right away.

 

[dun]

Since we're well on our way to getting well balanced cows for our environment and managment that do what you are looking for, we're willing to give up a little on carcass traits to keep what we have. Of the traits you listed I'm willing, grudgingly to allow more height then what I really want. Obviously we're not there 100%, and never will be since there is a change in the environment/weather year to year and injurys do arise. There is also carrying longevity too far. You can end up with an old cow herd with no young replacments to fill their shows till it's too late. That's the boat we're in now.

 

[3waycross]

The thing that is driving me nuts is how to balance the milk equation. Not enuf milk and WW goes in the toliet, too much and BCS, breedback, and wintering ability on the dam suffers. Plus the increased need for inputs to support the higher milk production.

I just finished going thru my friends cowherd today to help him cull some cows. The opens are easy. What was tough was seeing the thinner high milk producers with big fat calves on them and knowing that they were going to breedback later than the fat stingy one who keep it all for themselves. We have been doing this for a few years now and his weaning weights are good but it's hard to find that "perfect" cow that can raise a big calf on low inputs and not starve herself to death and breed back on time. It is primarily a SH/RA herd these days but he just purchased a Red Balancer bull to put on them. The RA side of the new bull is a -1 for ME so I am hoping that will help some, and milk is lower that with the last bull.

Here is a picture of the new bull. He had just come off the truck after 12 hours without feed and water so he is a little gaunt.

 

[double v]

Long question but the fact is trying to balance growth with maternal, some of the best calving bulls are good on milk and bw but just average in growth. Some of your meat makers put them on the ground but kill you on maternal and you can't keep a heifer. The gelbvieh association used to have a great chart to compare these traits will see if its still out there.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Dylan-

You must be a mind reader! I have been contemplating writing a paper, or treatise if you will, on this subject for several months. About a month ago I answered some questions for a breeder with whom I have been discussing this very subject, and started getting my thoughts together for a logical and reasonable approach to these discussion points - and have come to the conclusion that the subject material is extremely controversial - made more so because of the diversity of breed characteristics involved. As a result, no matter what conclusions on which one settles, you are going to get a raft of disputes and argumentations - and justifiably so!

Now that you have stirred my juices and gotten me off the dime, I will gather the material that I have so zealously stacked on the corner of my credenza, ignore Ruthie's accusatory stares regarding the "jumble of stuff" (as she refers to it!) , and try to make sense of my thoughts of same.

It could easily become a 'textbook' of "How TO - OR - How NOT To", and I resist that tendency with a passion, because each Producer has his own agenda and prospectus for his operation, and that is the way it should be. These thoughts will be my personal points of view, I don't propose to augur or prophesy omens, and I don't have an ax to grind, with the exception of the fact that I am adamently apposed to any cattle breeder practicing "Single Trait Selection" choices in their Beef Cattle Breeding BU$INE$$! For THEIR benefit!

Inasmuch as I am a "Type "A" Personality, and attempt to avoid becoming overly involved in any project that 'waves a red flag' in front of my eyes, this will require some manner of time to put together, so please have some patience and I will get back with you in a day or so. Of course, the NBA Finals begin tomorrow :bang: , and that will interject itself into my time factors as well, but I shall do diligent work to get back to you sooner rather than later!

Thank you for seeking my input. I consider it an honor.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Servicing ability, above average for agility and athleticism.

Just my observation from using 14 month old bulls for clean up on mature cows... those very long bodied bulls are usually more clumsy breeders as yearlings, while the better balanced ( shorter coupled, if you like ) bulls seem to fare a lot better. As twos the difference isn't nearly as big as in young yearlings.

So although it doesn't answer your question I'm willing to give up some body length to rather be able to sell yearling bulls that can go to work right away.

The one thing Knersie I am sure you noticed was my effort to exclude type preferences from the list.

I attempted to make the list, purely funtional, what the cow and bull need to do or to achieve, with out presuming and or being prescriptive as to my opinion of what type or form is required to get it done. Partially because ultimately the function is the most important and if that is getting done the form that that takes is by definition what is required. Not that I have no type preference, as you know.

I used the terms agile and athlelic in this description which may leave the door open to type preference and maybe really for the sake of a purely functional definition, one should say that what is wanted is an above average proficiency or a highly proficient servicing ability.

I have seen bulls over the years that were extremely proficient breeders that could settle 70 plus females in a 48 day breeding season and in general I don't know if I could honestly say they were all one specific type.


Dun for sure it is a long row to hoe and like you say the chance of ever arriving is slim but the destination is in mind.
The age cull is a struggle for me also, we have a number of 14 and one 15 year old this year and in light of cull cow prices that may not be wise. We do have quite a bunch of younger cows though.

3way, in the end from a purely economic and longevity standpoint a good arguement can be made for middle of the road from a ww standpoint, as unpalatable as that may be, especially if one can make up for it in reduced distribution, ie avoid the extremes top and bottom, and still get the same total lbs. Set your input levels and your calving period limitations and you will by default identify the level of production that fits. A cow that doesn't produce is of virtually no value except as a cull and the cow that milks herself out of a job before her time isn't a whole buch better.

Doc, as regards the contraversy, if one difines application ie maternal and then sticks to production outcomes (function) and let form follow then some of the contraversy can be avoided. In the end getting the job done is the most important objective.

I look forward to your input.

Input from any and all would be appreciated. :tiphat:

 

[3waycross]

Thanks Dylan. You put it much better than I could. That is exactly what I am looking for. One think I definately agree with Knersie on is you can breed for the average but you can't breed to average. In other words a 2 bred to a 10 is not the way to achieve a 5 or a 6. It needs to be done more incrementally. Thus the small adjustments made in the selection of the above pictured bull.

 

[Northern Rancher]

I have just started an interesting chapter in my life-I took over management of a fairly large outfit-were calving 650 and breeding 850. I'm giving my son Ty a chance to get his feet wet at the home place without Dad looking over his shoulder. He is also my only cowboy at the bigger outfit. The owner has given me the go ahead to clean house and turn the cowherd into a more efficient trouble free group of cattle. The main mature cowherd of 450 head is pretty much straight black and I don't know much about them or the history of the bulls other than pedigree and epd's. Were selecting our replacements at birth-if the cow is sound-mothers well and is not crazy we tag those heifers yellow rest get pink-were tagging maybe 20% yellow in this bunch. Alot of udders are just on the edge of what I consider acceptable-not knowing if the bulls used before would fix udders were erring on the side of caution-I'm going to pull 25% off the bottom and can them-25% off the top to retain and the middle half are going to be dispersed this fall. I have bought 7 pretty good Horned Hereford bulls that will go on the best Angus cows to raise baldies. We have 200 baldy yearlings that were going to breed black as well. Were just getting going calving steady-tagged 15 frshies this morning-the cows are out on a good calving field a section of carryover grass-they get moved pretty quick. Were selling a bunch of iron and going to bale grazing and using horses so its a fun time here.

 

[KNERSIE]

Are you going to continue breeding the baldies black from the second calf onwards? Sounds like an interesting venture.

 

[Northern Rancher]

I imagine so-everything with a white face will be bred black and everything black will be bred Hereford-the replacement heifers will be all bred black or Hereford. We calve out from the yard so alot of selection pressure on calving ease and livability. The ranch goal is to eventually sell females and to have the majority of heifers born to be worthy of being sold. The Hereford bulls we will be using all have good sound cows behind them and we'll use some proven bulls A'I. We run three breeding groups one of which is heifers so not contemplating a third breed in the mix as yet.

 

[smnherf]

Dylan,

Your post sounds a lot like a conversation I had recently with a friend.

It looks like you made a list of just about all the traits that arent covered by an EPD with the exception of calf vigor and feed conversion. Many of the above mentioned traits like fertility, longevity, feet and legs, udder quality and mothering ability/attentiveness affect net profitability a lot more than the WW, YW, milk and carcass epds do. I am not trying to bash the epd system as I have used it in the past for positive changes and will continue to use it. For a vast majority, it has come down to a marketing tool rather than a selection tool to breed better cattle. As much as people harp on the pitfalls of single trait epd selection, the same case could be had for EPDs as a single trait selection. As we select for higher and higher epds, fertility, feet and legs, mothering ability, hardiness, fleshing ability, longevity, libido, mature weight, and others convenience traits have been lost in the hysteria.

I tend to think that a super sound, highly maternal, feed efficient, long lasting female, that is absolutely trouble free with average performance and carcass traits will be highly profitable in most commercial operations.

 

[Northern Rancher]

How are things going with the 0702 bull are you going to have Canadian semen up by midJuly-I'd like to try him at both places. Has he ever been tested for the Leptin gene-I am just curious. One of the major feedyards and a place we bought alot of cattle from are convinced it is of value to test for it.

 

[JHH]

How are things going with the 0702 bull are you going to have Canadian semen up by midJuly-I'd like to try him at both places. Has he ever been tested for the Leptin gene-I am just curious. One of the major feedyards and a place we bought alot of cattle from are convinced it is of value to test for it.

Ok NR what is the Leptin gene?

 

[Northern Rancher]

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/leptin.html

 

[JHH]

Thanks. Interesting read.Learned something new today.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

The title of Dylan's thread, "The Challenge", carries the entire thrust of what the undertaking or function of breeding "Profitable" beef cattle is all about. In assessing my comments here , they take into account that Dylan's original concept concerned "...the process of building up a registered OR commercial Maternal breed. I have attempted to stay within those parameters.

Beef cattle "production" is, of necessity, a two-pronged occupation. I have mentioned on these pages in the past that, in my opinion, the BU$INE$$ of producing profitable beef cattle is as difficult an endeavor in which one agricultural operator can pursue as exists in the world! In order to be successful AND profitable, a person must be more adept at more tasks, missions, specialties, duties, functions, and be more of an expert at more detailed factors than almost any other occupation. I have nothing but high regard for an individual who is a successful beef cattle producer! He must be expert at Chemistry (feeding formulas, soil management and fertilization), he must understand his animal partners, labor long hours in all types and kinds of weather and adverse circumstances, be an excellent bookkeeper and mathematician, an accomplished mechanic and carpenter, a human AND animal psychologist, a Veterinarian of some expertise, a soil conservationist, an Attorney of sorts, and have the patience of Job! All of the above are required while at the same time managing his own private family matters, and probably helping his wife in the raising of kids. A seemingly impossible laborious struggle! . . .and . . . he has to be able to fix fence!

However - the above listed defiant occupational and functional duties and responsibilities which beef producers epitomize are the very characteristics which "make" a beef cattle producer the spectacular and legendary individual that most of them demonstrate.

In order to prepare oneself for these arduous work assignments, the breeder must have and use a tremenmdous number of "tools" at his disposal, aside from those previously mentioned above...and, hereby, we arrive at the quandry of this subject matter, and that becomes - the "tools" required to arrive at a solution to "The Challenge"!

The tools required to confront "The Challenge" are almost as demanding and specific as the subject itself. A necessary approach to a resolution requires addressing the subject in its entirety. There are three distinct facets of 'Beef Production ' to be considered here: 1- The Maternal Herd 2- The Terminal Herd 3- The Show Herd.

Number Three, the Show Herd, is a specialty phase of the beef business that is a totally different tangent from our discussion here regardless of the fact that "Multiple Trait Selection" factors are critical in making breeding choices, but for our purpose relevant, the balance of those factors present a different strategy, therefore the 'Show Herd' management will exceed the theme of this discussion point.

We are now at the junction of the selection of seedstock for either a 'maternal herd' or a 'terminal herd'. Inasmuch as Dylan's "Challenge" charge specified "...maternal herd selection emphasis,". . this discussion will focus on that approach. It should be stated here, however, that a true balance of breed selection choices are compatible and congruent with BOTH maternal and terminal breeding seedstock. That is a given fact! It is vital that, to prevent any misunderstanding of terms used herein, that Dylan also stipulated ". . . functional selection emphasis". ., which dictates an in-depth explanation of "functional traits". The term 'Functional' can carry a broad and general significance, and can be defined for our purposes here as "...the operation or performance of an activity of a part of the body, or organism, or system in a reasonably expected manner."

"Functional Traits can be referred to as physical, or type traits, that cannot be described with EPD's. They may affect the animal's function or longevity in the herd - such as skeletal structure (sound feet and legs, stifles, pasterns shoulders, spine, hock angles, etc) mammary structure and attachments, small teats, disposition, femininity (or masculinity) body capacity, fleshing ability, - all of these are critical in one's selection choices - and the Accuracies and Variances of these traits should also be given adequate consideration.

We can get so involved with degrees and details of traits, that the original focus is completely lost in the details. Suffice it to say, as Dylan commented, to find all of the so-called "necessary" factors and traits in one package is almost an impossibility! I concur completely!

Many sale catalogs of Registered Cattle display many Genetic and Phenotypic inherited traits EPD's - many of which are far in excess of those that the general prevailing seedstock provider would consider obligatory for his general requirements. Convenient to know, optional to review, interesting to have available - but not absolutely necessary for the decision-making protocols in most seedstock selection choices. "More is Not Necessarily Better" is a phrase that fits here very well.

Dylan, I agree with your concepts almost to the letter. The Angus breed as a general rule has gotten too large for economical functioning with PROFIT as a primary concern in the overall mix. I do question the tendency for you to reduce the birth weight averages and increase the Milk production EPD's - or increasing "Femininity" exponentially! These correlated changes have resulted in breed-wide cows that lack muscle and capacity, reduced 'beefiness', loss of thickness and what I call "Funnel Butts"! These traits are highly heritable, and may result in the undesirable changes mentioned here very quickly, in just two or three generations, - sometimes in just ONE generation. These are the primary reasons that I am so adament about breeders blindly lurching into following just ONE trait that they wish to correct without understanding that they may be throwing out the baby with the bath water , or - destroying one desirable trait by lurching crazily after another - without thinking what they are doing! Genetic and Phenotypical changes, including "Functional" traits must be made gradually, and with great BALANCE concepts to prevent a crash that could result in many years to correct the mistakes. "Make Haste Slowly" is a truism in beef breeding as it is in making love! Great results occur in both cases.

Insofar as compromise is concerned, I would enter into that activity with great caution and trepidation for the reasons listed above. The code words for breeding successes are BALANCE - BALANCE - BALANCE! You can't make a Silk Purse out of a Sow's ear! You have to know your sows as well as your cows. Knowledge is crucial when it comes to Balancing Traits between Cows and Bulls.

I have lived with this motto for 69 years of working with beef cattle: A good bull is half your herd. A poor bull is your ENTIRE herd!

Sorry for the long post. I sort of got carried away.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Northern Rancher]

I wondered about the Leptin gene because of the fact that 0709 is a high RFI bull-out of a very functional cow I might add-I'm just curious if there is a tie in to the two traits. The Waldorf ranch purchased 200 yearling heifers to breed from a very practical Hereford herd-when they first tested their cattle they found the majority were TT for Leptin. Maybe as we blunder along trying to make good practical ranch cows were are stumbling onto other things deeper in the puzzle. Our focus here is always the female the steers are just a byproduct-over all the cattle we've retained ownership on I've found that good functional cows can still produce steers that are acceptable for profitability on the rail. When you start to breed cattle worrying just about how the male end performs you can breed yourself out of a cowherd or into one that is expensive to run. The Waldorf that I manage is going to put about 500 calves on feed this fall so we'll be doing some in herd benchmarking-I'd say the breeding program up till now was leaning a bit more to the terminal type Angus.

 

[smnherf]

How are things going with the 0702 bull are you going to have Canadian semen up by midJuly-I'd like to try him at both places. Has he ever been tested for the Leptin gene-I am just curious. One of the major feedyards and a place we bought alot of cattle from are convinced it is of value to test for it.

He is at the collection facility now. I should have some ready by the first part of June as he should clear all the tests by then. By mid July I hope he is home and has bred a bunch of cows by then.

He hasn't been tested specifically for the Leptin gene. He has been Igentity profiled and he scored an 8 for marbling and a 7 for percent chice which is certainly on the high end for the Hereford tests I have seen. I visited a year or two ago with the Igentity rep about Leptin test and I think at one time they did test for it, but dont do it exclusively anymore. I got the impression that they beleive their new test is more accurate now but I have no idea if that is true or is just a marketing thing. It is quite possible that the leptin is part of their DNA analysis but I am unsure on that.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Did you take some daughter pics for me-if they are anything like his dam they should be pretty nice.