The 8 Most Common Genetic Mistakes Made by Cow/Calf Producer

[Lon]

I was reading and i came across this. What is everyones opinion when reading this and what parts do you agree with, disagree with and why so.

The 8 Most Common Genetic Mistakes Made by Cow/Calf Producers
1. More Is Not Better – When it comes to EPD's!
We can all do the math. +100 is more than +90 on yearling weight. On milk, +30 is more than +20 and that means more pounds to sell
at weaning, right? However, these EPD's only measure output – not profit. Profit is output minus cost. Unfortunately more output
usually comes from more inputs – i.e. more feed. Animals with higher EPD's for yearling and milk don't convert better, they just eat
more per day. Bigger EPD, higher feed consumption cattle have bigger mature weights. In fact, the dam of the average +100 YW EPD
bull weighs over 1650 pounds in good body condition.
2. Belly Draggers are Not Always More Efficient Cows
If we compare people, it's very hard to distinguish people who are deep ribbed from people that over eat. I think the same applies to
cattle. It is nearly impossible to determine efficiency based on phenotype alone. The only way to know efficiency is to measure feed
consumption and compare it with output. Most of the time, our deeper ribbed cattle consume more than average on a daily basis, and
they don't gain enough to pay for the extra consumption. The most efficient cattle tend to consume average or less feed per day. The
good news is that measuring efficiency in growing cattle seems to be 70% correlated to efficiency on grass for cows. There also does
not appear to be a negative effect on fertility, calving interval, or production at weaning. But remember, when we identify the most
efficient cattle – they may not be "belly draggers."
3. $Beef Is Not the Best Angus EPD
$Beef is a terminal EPD, because it only measures traits in the feedlot and on the rail. The $B EPD does not include any traits at or
before weaning. Selecting for $Beef will make your cows bigger and harder doing. If you are a cow/calf producer who sells calves at
weaning, you need to focus on the traits prior to weaning – calving ease, fertility traits, weaning weight, milk production, cow size and
cow cost. All of these traits, except fertility, are incorporated into the Angus $Weaning EPD. $W does not include a negative
relationship between milk and fertility. The $W EPD assumes that high milk cattle breed just as well as low milk cattle. However, we
know that this is not true. Cattle with milk at or above +25 have fertility problems in our environment. Maybe your environment is
tougher and you need to cap milk at +20 or even +15 – then select for the highest $W you can find!
4. High Marbling Cattle do Not Always Earn More Money
We all love to eat highly marbled beef, and we love to produce it. However, when the choice select spread is around $10 – you can lose
more selecting for marbling than you make. Marbling is antagonistic to muscle and carcass weight. When feeding margins are positive
(i.e. cost of gain is less than the fed cattle price) then carcass weight is one of the most important traits. Additionally, feed conversion
suffers when you take cattle to a high degree of finish. In today's high feed cost environment, a ½ pound improvement on feed
efficiency (i.e. 6:1 vs. 6.5:1) is worth $50 per head in the lot. This makes conversion the most important trait; and carcass weight is
second. Unfortunately, marbling does not earn as much money as either conversion or carcass weight.
5. Don't Buy Negative Birth EPD Bulls for use on Cows
We are big advocates of using low birth weight bulls – especially on heifers. However, in today's bull market you will find that good
quality heifer bulls cost a fortune. Unfortunately, most heifer bulls give up a lot on growth, muscle, and bone. If you are buying a bull
for use only on cows, you should be able to find really good bulls with birth weight EPD's between zero and breed average. These bulls
will give you more of the traits you want and cost you less money. At the end of the day, can you really afford to give up 10 pounds or
more at birth on a bull that is going to breed your cows? We don't think so!
6. Continental Bulls Can Work in Your Cow Herd
We know and love Angus cattle. We also know that we live in an "Angus" world. Angus is the only viable beef breed for use in a
straight bred breeding program. However, the right Continental cattle can bring a lot to the table. Many commercial producers do not
like Continentals because of too much birth weight, too much size, and too much milk. The big news today is that the moderate
Continental genetics actually have less mature size and less milk than Angus. With negative birth EPD's, you can also keep the birth
weights down. Continental x Angus hybrids and composites give you an easy way to gain from hybrid vigor, increase muscle, and keep
your uniformity. Clay Center data demonstrates that crossbred cows earn $75 more per head per year through heavier weaning
weights, higher rebreeding rates, and living longer (3 more years per cow).
7. Culling Cows will Not Improve Your Herd
Many commercial producers would like to keep cow production records to pick which cows to cull. This is a great idea, but in reality, it
does not work. For starters, you have to cull a number of cows every year simply based on age, fertility, and structure. This does not
leave you much room for making selection progress. Base your female culling decisions on economics, not genetics. Improve your
genetics by purchasing better bulls.
8. Don't Pick Oranges from an Apple Tree
One of the fundamental rules of animal selection is that animals "tend" towards their breed average and towards the herd average of
the breeder. For example, if you want marbling buy an Angus bull, not a high marbling Continental bull. If you want a heifer bull, buy a
low birth weight bull from a low birth weight herd – not a low birth weight bull from a herd with a high birth weight average. When it
comes time to shop for bulls, first pick a breed and then pick a breeder.

 

[polledbull]

very interesting read , thanks for posting

 

[Nesikep]

Interesting about the efficiency aspect.. and I'd agree with it too... Caddy, the cow I suspect to be the most efficient in the herd (least hungry, first to leave the feed bunk) isn't a belly dragger... She's a relatively fine boned cow, with a fair frame (6 to 7 I think) and about 15-1600 lbs. She stays fat all year and her calves are always up in the tops on weaning weights. In contrast, I have another cow (Mega), she does like to eat and she has a WIDE belly, but darn does she ever raise a big (and nice) calf... The two cows have 3/4 of the same bloodlines (Same grandmother, and Caddy's father is Mega's grandfather as well). I think cow longevity should be included in efficiency calculations, because I'd give up a little FEED efficiency if I didn't need to feed replacement heifers for darned well 2 1/2 years until I sold their first calf... the money I could have gotten for them 2 1/2 years earlier.

I'd also like to add that buying sale barn cows will not typically improve your herd either (unless you have a lousy herd or exceptional cows in the sale barn). For whatever reason they are there, they weren't the sellers best cows!

Around here we've long selected for good MATERNAL calving traits. Being a small herd (1 bull), we can still afford to have a 90 lb BW bull and use him on heifers (they usually have an 70-80 lb first calf). If they can't handle that, then they must not have the MCE we're going for. We do keep a close eye on the heifers at calving time, but it's rare we have one that needs anything more than light assistance..

I'm going to have to voice a bit of a reservation about #8, and here's why. I'm going to use birthweights as the example. For some reason, my mature cows nearly all make bull calves over 100 lbs, and about 2 out of 10 bull calves will be 130-140 lbs. My cows don't have a problem with this, but I think a person would be better off with a 90 lb BW bull from a herd where they're all much heavier than an 80 lb birthweight bull from a place where that's the average. This isn't the case for all traits either though, since you wouldn't want the the one that weans at 700 lbs when all his siblings weaned at 850, you'd want the 700 lb'er from a place where his siblings weaned at 600! When I look for bulls, I look for them to be raised in a HARSHER environment than mine too

 

[Son of Butch]

The 8 Most Common Genetic Mistakes Made by Cow/Calf Producers

6. Continental Bulls Can Work in Your Cow Herd

#6 Should read CAN'T not can.
#6 says it's a mistake to think C.B.s can work in your herd....then goes on to list the reasons showing they can.

 

[alexfarms]

Number 10 should be:

10. There are no rules.
There are many ways to accomplish your goals, find the one that works best for you.

 

[gizmom]

Good article thanks for posting. I love what they are saying about $B and I agree 100%. Those breeders that are selecting for only $B are going to get bit in the A$$ down the road. They are going to find that they have cattle that won't breed or if they do the calves will be little runts because they don't have anything to feed them. Ok I am done, just an ole girls opinion that and a couple dollars will buy you a nice snack at McD's.

Gizmom

 

[cowgirl8]

I know someone, who when talking about breeding he says generics instead of genetics .. I have to catch myself when i actually say genetics, and goofingly say generics.. My husband and i always say generics now when we are together, but always giggle a little after saying it. One day someone will say, did she say generics and not genetics..

 

[Gelbvieh 5]

I know someone, who when talking about breeding he says generics instead of genetics .. I have to catch myself when i actually say genetics, and goofingly say generics.. My husband and i always say generics now when we are together, but always giggle a little after saying it. One day someone will say, did she say generics and not genetics..

Thank you :tiphat: That was very educational and informative. All in all a tremendous addition to this thread.

Perhaps, now, you could teach us all how to grow Broccoli!

 

[cowgirl8]

I know someone, who when talking about breeding he says generics instead of genetics .. I have to catch myself when i actually say genetics, and goofingly say generics.. My husband and i always say generics now when we are together, but always giggle a little after saying it. One day someone will say, did she say generics and not genetics..

Thank you :tiphat: That was very educational and informative. All in all a tremendous addition to this thread.

Perhaps, now, you could teach us all how to grow Broccoli!

Actually, i can.... and you're welcome...

 

[Andyva]

So "belly draggers" aren't efficient? Even when they are under the same conditions as the ones that fall off to nothing? They must just eat more and chase the skinny cows away. On the good side, it looks like someone else figured out that there is a direct relationship between the 40 lb. BW and the 390 lb. WW.

 

[u4411clb]

1. Can someone please explain #7 to me.

2. And $B doesn't matter if you sell a few here and a few there and they get mixed in at the sale barn with others. But if you are selling off of your place and your name is tied to the cattle you best believe $B matters. The guy from the feedlot buying your cattle could care less what they weighed at birth or how many calves you had to pull. He could probably care less what weight they weaned at becasue he wants them 45- 90 days past that. He wants to know how are they going to perform from the time they get dropped off until slaughter. Besides health he wants to know conversion and how they are going to hang on the rail which is $B. And he will remember your cattle if they did or didnt perform and will bid accordingly next time and your reputation will follow you.

 

[regolith]

1. Can someone please explain #7 to me.

#7 is the bind a producer is in if he is either very unlucky or is a very average cattle manager or possibly is building his herd numbers internally and sacrificing quality in the process.
You certainly can improve your herd genetically by culling off the bottom end, and you can cull the bottom end if you have more replacements than you have deaths and open cows.

However if you're not supporting those good culling decisions with good genetics and good selection of replacement females... the herd improvement is only short term.

Failure to keep records creates a scenario where you are unable to cull effectively, whether or not you have the spare cows to do so.

 

[Nesikep]

Andyva, I think it's not black and white, they aren't necessarily efficient BECAUSE they are bellydraggers.

SonOfButch, you need to read past the first sentence or improve your reading comprehension. He's saying you probably won't do well with PB continentals, but they do well in cow/calf operations as crossbreds to angus. So yes, they CAN work in your herd

 

[gizmom]

u4411clb

If your in the cow calf business and select for nothing but $B you are going to have a train wreck, for that matter if you pick for any single trait long enough the wreck will follow. I have heard to many people tell me that they don't want a cow unless she is in the top 1% for dollar beef that they are building a herd of top $B cows. I stand by what I said that mindset will bite you in the A$$ eventually. Again just my opinion which like everyone else on this board I am entitled to.

gizmom

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Andyva, I think it's not black and white, they aren't necessarily efficient BECAUSE they are bellydraggers.

SonOfButch, you need to read past the first sentence or improve your reading comprehension. He's saying you probably won't do well with PB continentals, but they do well in cow/calf operations as crossbreds to angus. So yes, they CAN work in your herd

And it doesn't mean they are efficient because they are narrow as a rail, and a frame score of 5.

 

[LauraleesFarm]

In my opinion the biggest mistake a cow/calf producer can do is to get totally hung up on EPD's. ; ) Take all of them with a big grain of salt.

 

[u4411clb]

u4411clb

If your in the cow calf business and select for nothing but $B you are going to have a train wreck, for that matter if you pick for any single trait long enough the wreck will follow. I have heard to many people tell me that they don't want a cow unless she is in the top 1% for dollar beef that they are building a herd of top $B cows. I stand by what I said that mindset will bite you in the A$$ eventually. Again just my opinion which like everyone else on this board I am entitled to.

gizmom

Never denied you your right to your opinion. I don't think that picking for any individual epd solely is ever a good idea. I was suggesting that if a feed lot is buying your calves or they are being bought to go to the feedlot or if you are retaining ownership and that is the how you are getting your money then $B and $F is one of the higher valued epds. That person only cares about how they will put on weight and what kind of weight they will put on once in the feedlot. Not milk, not bw or calving ease which I know as a cow calf mean allot but we should never lose sight that to the person buying our calves paying us those other epds mean nothing. And so $B should be high on our list as a criteria but not picked for exclusively. But just like you have heard people say they are choosing for $B and suggest they are headed for a train wreck. I have also heard people say that it is their job to get a calf to weaning or to the sale barn and after that what it does is not their problem and I think those people are headed for a trainwreck as well. If they have to stand behind their calves and put their name to them. Like I said the guy going to salebarn with a few here and there really never have to put their name to them. But I call buyers personally when I take my calves to sale barn because they have asked me to and they bid on my cattle based on what they have done and what they feel like they will do and so my name and reputation go with each load. And they have never asked me about birthweight or calving ease or milk or fertility or all of those things important to cow calf producers but they have asked about $B and $F on our bulls. But I am just disagreeing with you not insulting your cows or knowledge. I have seen pics of your bulls and cows they look very good.

 

[cbcr]

In my opinion the biggest mistake a cow/calf producer can do is to get totally hung up on EPD's. ; ) Take all of them with a big grain of salt.

This should be one of the rules. But, EPDs are important if they are used at a tool as they were intended. Buying and using a bull based on EPDs alone is a train wreck waiting to happen. A good example of this would be to look at the dairy industry, and especially the Holstein breed. The dairy industry has been doing genetic evaluations for milk and the components for years, and along with that it has been preached and preached to producers to use high PD bulls, use high PD bulls. Well they have done so and what is the result? They have an animal that is frail, can't hold up, in-efficient, harder to breed back, increased health issues (which means higher vet bills).

 

[gizmom]

u4411clb

If your in the cow calf business and select for nothing but $B you are going to have a train wreck, for that matter if you pick for any single trait long enough the wreck will follow. I have heard to many people tell me that they don't want a cow unless she is in the top 1% for dollar beef that they are building a herd of top $B cows. I stand by what I said that mindset will bite you in the A$$ eventually. Again just my opinion which like everyone else on this board I am entitled to.

gizmom

Never denied you your right to your opinion. I don't think that picking for any individual epd solely is ever a good idea. I was suggesting that if a feed lot is buying your calves or they are being bought to go to the feedlot or if you are retaining ownership and that is the how you are getting your money then $B and $F is one of the higher valued epds. That person only cares about how they will put on weight and what kind of weight they will put on once in the feedlot. Not milk, not bw or calving ease which I know as a cow calf mean allot but we should never lose sight that to the person buying our calves paying us those other epds mean nothing. And so $B should be high on our list as a criteria but not picked for exclusively. But just like you have heard people say they are choosing for $B and suggest they are headed for a train wreck. I have also heard people say that it is their job to get a calf to weaning or to the sale barn and after that what it does is not their problem and I think those people are headed for a trainwreck as well. If they have to stand behind their calves and put their name to them. Like I said the guy going to salebarn with a few here and there really never have to put their name to them. But I call buyers personally when I take my calves to sale barn because they have asked me to and they bid on my cattle based on what they have done and what they feel like they will do and so my name and reputation go with each load. And they have never asked me about birthweight or calving ease or milk or fertility or all of those things important to cow calf producers but they have asked about $B and $F on our bulls. But I am just disagreeing with you not insulting your cows or knowledge. I have seen pics of your bulls and cows they look very good.

[

I can't disagree with what your saying I am just saying as a seed stock producer we have to balance all of the numbers including $B and $F. I guess my frustration ran over due to an ear full of hearing some folks that are new to the industry telling me they only want animals in the top 1% of the breed for $B. When you try to point out that they have to be careful selecting for $B only they think you are blowing smoke. Please understand I am not saying $B and $F are not important, just that if that is the only criteria utilized in a program then your going to have the above mentioned train wreck, just like you would in any single trait selection. One of the most important things we have learned as a seed stock producer is to listen to our customers, the ones selling the pot loads of steers. If a bull you sell them isn't working they will let you know it. Back years ago we had one of our customers tell us that he really liked our bulls but he wouldn't bid on them because they didn't have a big enough SC measurement. That was an eye opening conversation, and to be honest the one that really opened my eyes to what our commercial bull buyers were looking for. This man buys a lot of bulls and I am proud to say that now he buys a lot of our bulls. Listening to folks like him and having exchanges like this one with you help me keep what the customer wants in focus.

Gizmom

 

[Son of Butch]

SonOfButch, you need to improve your reading comprehension.

Thank You for pointing out my short comings.

Which is correct?
Is it a common mistake to think...
A. Continental bulls can work in your cow herd.
B. Continental bulls can't work in your cow herd.

p.s. when someone says continental bulls, Charolais, Simmental and Gelbvieh are the 1st to pop into my head.