Texas Longhorn show animals

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Rustler9

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This article may be of interest to some of the Longhorn breeders on this board. See the quotes below from Larry Barker the TLBAA General Manager. Sounds to me as if he is finally admitting to and condoning the crossing of the Longhorn to other beef breeds for show purposes. This goes along with what I've been saying all along-that many of the show animals that we see today are crossbreds in all actuality. Not that there's anything wrong with cross breeding but if they are crosses they should be called crosses instead of misleading the general public into thinking that this is what a true Longhorn should look like. I've personally seen many show animals that are beautiful animals but have lost much of the true characteristics of the Longhorn breed. Many of these animals still have the coloration and some horn length but have taken on the conformation of the Limousin, Simmental or other breed that it has been crossed with.


LUBBOCK, Texas — Hondo rancher Debbie Davis has no beef with those who want to see their Texas longhorns, well, beefier.

Her passion, though, lies with preserving the traditional longhorn breed that survived on little grass and water as it roamed Texas and other parts of the West during the mid-1800s.

"A true Texas longhorn is endangered right now," said Davis, president of the Cattlemen's Texas Longhorn Registry which is striving to keep the bloodline of the traditional longhorn as pure as possible.

The longhorn isn't on any endangered lists, but visit any livestock show and all the competition is between longhorns that have far more heft and girth than the traditional rangy and gaunt animal.

Davis and other ranchers believe crossbreeding with other cattle species is diminishing the traditional's numbers.

Others say a longhorn is a longhorn is a longhorn.

"You're always going to have people giving you an opinion of what a longhorn looks like," said Larry Barker, general manager of the Fort Worth-based Texas Longhorn Breeders Association of America, which also registers the animals. "If you asked six people, you'd get six different answers, and all six of them would be correct."

There's plenty beyond the name that ties the breed to Texas. It's the state's official large mammal and the mascot for the University of Texas. Bevo XIV, the current mascot, is a true longhorn and lives on a ranch northwest of Austin, its owner said.

Davis' registry is working on a DNA database that will define the genetic makeup of a traditional longhorn. Until then, animals are required to have a visual inspection as well as blood-typing to see if there are markers of other breeds.

Davis and others have registered about 3,500 longhorns since 1990.

"What they're doing is real important, to retain as close as possible" the true longhorn, said Dr. Phil Sponenberg, a veterinarian and professor of pathology and genetics at Virginia Tech University.

Mixing traditional longhorns with cattle breeds such as Angus and Hereford for show purposes began about 20 years ago, Barker said. It's created bigger animals, some with longer horns, that are winning livestock show competitions across the state and the country.

Davis said she believes livestock shows are "responsible for the degradation" of the traditional animal.

Progenitors of the traditional longhorn go back to Neolithic times and were first domesticated in Europe from Asiatic stock. The cattle were brought to North America from southwestern Spain around 1500. They spread from Mexico and some eventually became feral. They became hardier and thrived wherever they roamed, from swamplands in Louisiana to deserts in California.

Some ranchers say the longhorn saved Texas. After the Civil War, beef was a hot commodity in the north. Because of their hardiness and longer legs, the longhorns needed less water and food than other species, enabling them to survive long trail drives. Texas climbed out of the post-war depression from the money longhorn sales brought back to the state.

But the true longhorn began to decline by the end of the 19th century when railroads replaced cattle drives. The animals' horns meant fewer could fit inside a railcar. Also, breeds of English cattle, which matured physically more quickly, began arriving in the U.S. and were crossbred with longhorns.

Longhorns also had a natural resistance to tick fever, a cattle disease since eradicated in the U.S. but still monitored for incursion from Mexico. Ranchers outside Texas wanted nothing to do with longhorns because they carried ticks to their more vulnerable cattle.

In 1927, the federal government appropriated $3,000 to establish a protected herd. Nowadays, about 300 longhorns live in the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge in southwest Oklahoma.

Texas also has a state herd, established in 1941 with the help of folklorist J. Frank Dobie. The 175-head herd resides in Fort Griffin State Park in Albany, northeast of Abilene. Periodically, some animals are disbursed to range in other state parks.

John T. Baker, a central Texas rancher, has been in the longhorn business for more than three decades. He went to Spain in the 1990s and saw six Spanish breeds of horned cattle, which he believes are the progenitor of the Texas longhorn.

He's not opposed to those who breed for specific longhorn traits, such as longer horns or color.

"I've watched the breed change dynamically," said Baker. "The good thing about longhorns is you can raise a certain flavor."

One of Mike Warner's flavors is a red and white bull named Mongo, a beefier 1,700-plus pound longhorn that the Fort Worth attorney used to show but now calls his "pet." Warner spends time sitting on Mongo's back and talking to him each weekend on his ranch.

In 2001 Mongo, then 2, weighed 1,800 pounds and was crowned Senior Champion Bull at the Texas Longhorn Breeders Association of America World Show.

Warner's not interested in stepping into the debate on which type of longhorn is more true. He believes, though, that those outside Texas remember the longhorn as those that "John Wayne hung around with" in Western movies.

"I love them all," he said. "I think they each serve their own function."
 
I just wanted to resurrect this thread as i feel its important for the longhorn breeders to acknowledge.

If you recall i've had my days of ranting on the subject, usually followed by denunciations from longhorn breeders who can't distinguish "improved" from "crossbred".

Larry Barker has a point, for some people "a longhorn is a longhorn". Breeders though, shouldn't take that approach and I applaud Mrs. Davis for her long-sightedness. The TLBAA magazine is full of mostly mongrel, ugly beasts with owners claiming to have top genetics and boasting high-dollar sales. It should be reformed into the "exotic african beast association," since its obvious watusi and other giant-horned breeds have been introduced.

I am a breeder and buyer of traditional longhorns of the Yates (Rest in Peace) influence and I find them the hardiest and easy-keeping cattle known to man. I buy cattle from Debbie Davis yearly, they have some excellent longhorns and their beef is tender, lean, and tastes pretty damn good.

I breed these cattle for our south texas ranch, where only rattlesnakes and cactus survive. They serve their purpose as hardy, efficient, surviving factories for calf production. I agree with Davis, that the true Texas Longhorn, bred for its adaptability, hardiness, longevity, and simplicity, is near extinction.
 
I tend to agree with comments about the "show characteristics" (which I don't agree with the looks of those Longhorns) of some of those Show Longhorns: Seems to emphasize BODY rather than the traditional conformation of the Texas Longhorn. More and more those show "winners" are looking like the "Beef" animals with a only little to moderate amount of horn. Granted, horn isn't everything; however, a Longhorn should still look like a Longhorn, representive of the breed.

Some of those ~1,000# show cows/heifers that appear to be 1.5-3 years old don't have as much "Longhorn Horn" as the usual younger longhorns.

To see a young breeding age female with only say 18-24" of horn is NOT a good representation of our breed. They look out of proportion and more like "commercial beef" animals that just happen to have a moderate rack.

Yes, we should see a good BCS 5 or so with a longhorn while at the same time see a decent display of "hooks and pins" along with some very nice horns.

JMO...
 
I am sure glad to see there are some Longhorn breeders who are still trying to maintain true Texas Longhorn genetics. I had a few cows in the late '70's and early 80's that came off of the Witchita refuge as heifer calves. None had the excessive horn growth so commonly seen today. I have long felt this came from the unfortunate practice of mixing African genetics into them. There should be a way to blood type for this, but there are probably not enough purists left in the breed who would care.

One thing my cattle did do, and do well, was survive. I lived in Northern Montana at the time. These cattle weren't in the least fussy about what they ate, and seemed to thrive on browsing on the cottonwoods, dogwood, and aspen. They weren't pets, but did have good dispositions. They would hide their newborn out for 3-4 days after birth and were almost impossible to find. I finally quit worrying about them. Eventually we ended up with quite a few 1/4 to 1/2 bloods who raised great calves and still retained better survivability traits without the Longhorn bodytype. If I ever lived in the "Big Country" again, my cattle would have a little of the old time Texas Longhorn genetics. BUT...with buyers bein' like they are....I wouldn't be tellin' anybody! Thanks to folks like Debbie Davis and TxStateCowboy, it sounds like a guy could actually find some! THANKS!
 
As a Longhorn breeder that has quite a mix of the old bloodlines, I tend to agree.

While we do try to improve our herd, it is done by breeding the bigger bodied cows in our herd with a proven LH bull.

My wife and son are more on the show side of the coin than I am. There is no question in my mind that some breeders take a wide latitude in their breeding programs, to win a ribbon, I refuse to do so. You hardly if ever see one of these "show cows" in a registered sale, and there is a reason for that, A serious LH breeder wouldn't give a nickel for them.
 
Didnt really want to respond to this, as this topic has been debated and discussed here over and over again. However, I thought I'd throw in my two cents from the other side of the fence.

I raise Texas Longhorns. They are all 100% Texas Longhorns. I have never owned or raised anything but Texas Longhorn cattle. The ranch I work for has not had a non-Texas Longhorn on it since well before the owner bought it. We raise Texas Longhorns because they work extremely well in our area and terrain, have very low maintenence, have great longevity, fertility, mothering abilities, foraging abilities, disease resistance, great personalities, and because that is what the boss likes. We strive to maintain the above positives of the breed while improving the breed at the same time. We feel that structural correctness, soundness, natural thickness, and balance are just some of the things that can always use improvement. These are the things we know how to improve and have a passion for improving. All of our cattle have horns. They have adequate horns for their size, in our opinion. We do not feel that horns are equal to or more important that structure, fertility, calf rearing, or foraging ability. Therefore, horn growth is not one of our major points in selection criteria. We do enjoy large horns, we do have many animals in the 60"+ range and had a past herd sire that was over 60". Personally, once I have found the perfect Texas Longhorn body, and can produce that with consistency, then I will place major emphasis on horn growth.

Just because I do not choose to raise the "traditional" type Texas Longhorns does not mean I do not enjoy them or appreciate them. I do. But for me I like making the next generation better than the previous, and strive to do that in what I feel is the best way, for me and the herd i help manage and my employer. I do not bash breeders for raising animals that are "traditional" in their type and kind, nor do I bash breeders for raising animals solely for horn or color production. I might have used to in the past, but I have moved on from that and realize that this is America, and people can raise cattle however they want to. Just because I disagree with it, does not mean it is wrong.

As far as crossbreeding goes... well a good crossbred with Texas Longhorn blood can do a lot of great things. However, as soon as you claim or register that animal as 100% Texas Longhorn you have crossed the line. There is not a single situation that can arise where sliding in another breed and calling it all Texas Longhorn is right. Not morally or legally. I have very strong opinions on this topic and changing the birthdays of animals. Very wrong, should not be tolerated under any circumstances, period. I know that all of the animals on the ranch I work for are 100% Texas Longhorn. I have seen most, if not all, of the animals in the pedigrees of the animals on the ranch, either in person or in pictures.

I commend those who want to raise traditional type Texas Longhorns. I just do not think that raising animals that are progressive and non-traditional is the worst thing in the world. I think it is great to have many different types of Texas Longhorns, and as long as it is done honestly and with hard work I see nothing wrong with it. The individuals I have serious issues with are those who claim the type of Texas Longhorns I raise are not pure, and have never set foot onto the ranch I help run or seen the cattle I raise in person. They blindly accuse individuals of crossbreeding, without seeing the decades of extremely hard work and culling.

Other breeds are not bashed for improving their breed. You would not expect angus breeders to continue to raise animals that were raised 20, 50, 75 or 100 years ago, and you would not expect charolais breeders to continue to raise the high-strung, heavy birthweight animals that got them the stereo-type they have now. But you blindly bash Texas Longhorn breeders who improve the breed they choose to raise?

Ryan

""The good thing about longhorns is you can raise a certain flavor."
-John T. Baker
 
Brandonm2":nzaklsta said:
What do yall think about these guys that clone these really really big horned longhorns....

http://www.maranch.com/70+%20Cows/70+%20Cows.htm

his money. he can do with it as he pleases. can't say I would clone anything. seems like the lazy way to cattle production, and you dont improve anything... everything just the stays the same.... the only things i am somewhat interested in are the lifespans of the clones, and to see the two steers he had cloned, see what they turn out to be like as bulls.
 
Well, I find it interesting that someone finally addressed this post. For a while I thought everyone had gone to sleep. Longhorn cattle can be bred to two extremes. Those with so much horn that they can hardly hold their heads up with small bodies and those who look like they have just enough Longhorn blood in them to pass them off as such for show purposes. I'll put it this way-if it looks and smells like crap it usually is. I know we've all heard this before.

I know that Watusi has been introduced into the breed before but you can always tell, even several generations down the line. It's too hard to disguise from what I've been told. It's also very evident that many of the animals on the show circuit today have other blood introduced into them as well. All of this just tends to dilute a breed that needs to be left alone and kept in it's purest form. To me, someone who does this just to win a ribbon or a check does not really care about the breed. This is just greed. But the association did away with blood typing to protect these people so we can see where their hearts really lie as well.
 
Rustler9":2sqtnlb9 said:
It's also very evident that many of the animals on the show circuit today have other blood introduced into them as well.

I disagree with this. I won't say none of the animals on the show circuit have other blood in there somewhere, however i would say it is an extremely small minority of the animals that other blood. i have been extremely involved with the show circuit for about 19 years. The change/improvement of the cattle on the show circuit has been gradual. I would tend to agree with you more if the change was a rapid one, but since the animals have gradually increased in quality throughout the years and not grown by leaps and bounds from year to year I lean on the belief that the improvement has come from hard work, careful selection, strict culling and improvements in management and nutrition practices.

All of this just tends to dilute a breed that needs to be left alone and kept in it's purest form.

Why? Then the longhorn breed will lose respect from other cattlemen and be stuck into a novelty only breed that can only attract people who think they are neat or cute or "want a part of history"

To me, someone who does this just to win a ribbon or a check does not really care about the breed. This is just greed.

i could not agree with you more.

Ryan
 
Rustler9 wrote:
All of this just tends to dilute a breed that needs to be left alone and kept in it's purest form.

Ryan wrote:
Why? Then the longhorn breed will lose respect from other cattlemen and be stuck into a novelty only breed that can only attract people who think they are neat or cute or "want a part of history"

Ryan, are you saying that it's ok to introduce other breeds into the Longhorn breed in order to make it more acceptable to other cattle breeders? That sounds like other Longhorn breeders, just goes back to what Larry Barker and John T. Baker were talking about. Breeding other influences in to make a better show animal. I already know that this breed crosses well for commercial production, so do many others who have tried them but let's keep the cross breeding out of the show ring and stop blindly leading the public into believing that this is what a purebred Longhorn should look like.

In your opinion why did the association stop blood typing? I feel that it is to protect some of the top breeders of show animals in this breed and I'll bet other Longhorn breeders on this board would agree as well. Some of these big money people have it all sewn up and it's a shame that it's this way. I've talked to and read what other folks have to say about other beef breeds who have had other breed s intoduced to enhance them. Some will admit it and some won't. But, take every breed that's turned black in the last few years that weren't previously black; how did they all of a sudden change color? Evolution? I don't think so. You know these other breeds may not mind this (and I'm not picking on anybody's breed of choice) but I mind it. I for one don't want to see the Longhorn turn into a generic hodge podge of breeds. If I wanted to do that I'd go to one of those other breeds. This is where we'll always differ and disagree.
 
Rustler9":8rzqsm3t said:
Rustler9 wrote:
All of this just tends to dilute a breed that needs to be left alone and kept in it's purest form.

Ryan wrote:
Why? Then the longhorn breed will lose respect from other cattlemen and be stuck into a novelty only breed that can only attract people who think they are neat or cute or "want a part of history"

Ryan, are you saying that it's ok to introduce other breeds into the Longhorn breed in order to make it more acceptable to other cattle breeders? That sounds like other Longhorn breeders, just goes back to what Larry Barker and John T. Baker were talking about. Breeding other influences in to make a better show animal. I already know that this breed crosses well for commercial production, so do many others who have tried them but let's keep the cross breeding out of the show ring and stop blindly leading the public into believing that this is what a purebred Longhorn should look like.

No no. My comments were directed towards the "a breed that needs to be left alone and kept in it's purest form" part of your post. I guess i should have been more specific. I do agree that cross breeding should be left out of the show ring. I do not think I, or any other, person that shows are "blindly leading the public" into believing anything. I also do not think any one person or breeder should tell anyone else what a purebred Texas Longhorn should look like, I believe that is up to the individual breeder to have in their own mind what a purebred Texas Longhorn should look like. I am friends with Mr. Baker and I do not believe that crossbreeds or has done that in the past to produce a better show animal. I believe his comments were directed towards what goal(s) each individual breeder has in mind for their herd (show, horn, commercial, ornamental, riding steers, rodeo stock, etc...), and he says nothing about crossing in other breeds.



Ryan
 
Blood typing has not been done away with. Just because it is not utilized does not mean it cannot be done:

TLBAA Handbook:

page 17, Article X, Section 2. - Eligibility of Registration
paragraph 3, line 3
"The Board of Directors, at its discretion, may require visual appraisal, DNA blood-typing, genetic marking, or other such tests as may becom available, with the costs of such testing to be borne by the applicant."

page 19, Article XII Fraudulent Entries or Transfers, Section 3. - Method of Clarification
"When, in the judgement of the majority of the Board of Directors, there is an apparent irregularity in an application for registration, the Board my require blood-typing and/or DNA testing of the animal in question, together with its sire and dam of record unless certified copies of prior blood-typing and/or DNA testing can be produced. The Board may choose the laboratory it desires to perform said blood-typing and/or DNA testing at the owner's expense. In the event both blood-typing and DNA testing have been performed on the animal in question, as well as the sire and the dam to said animal, and the parentage results should be conflicting, the majority of the Board of Directors shall determine which test shall be valid for entry into the Registry. Further, the decision of the majority of the Board of Directors shall be final and not subject to change at a future date, unless a new application should be made by the animal's owner."

RULES AND REGULATIONS
Section 6. - Disqualification
page 25, beginning on second to last line of page
"Any animal affected by an undesirable genetic recessive trait produced by a sire or dam registered in the Texas Longhorn Registry must be verified by a reputable institution and its ancestry proven by blood typing and/or DNA testing."

Section 7. - Artificial Insemination
E. Blood Typing and/or DNA Tests
*note the entire subset E. in section 7. - Artificial Insemination is titled Blood Typing and/or DNA Tests, and describes the blood typing and/or DNA testing needed or artificial insemination requirements

Blood typing and/or DNA testing is also mentioned in Section 7. - Artificial Insemination, subset F. TLBAA Rules of Registration of Clones and subset F. Embryo Transfer.

Ryan
 
Registration can be done online with a few clicks, then they send you a registration paper. That says it all.

The organization that I am a part of, CTLR (Cattleman's Texas Longhorn Registry) does still believe in blood-typing, and when attained, the ability to DNA test, their registrants for purity.

The whole point of this registry is to keep the economic benefit of longhorns completely intact and not disturbed by man's short-term interests. "Improved" longhorns, those commonly displayed in TLBAA publication, in the near future, may not work half as well as "traditional" longhorns because of the selections man has made for the sake of his wallet.

This is not to say raising traditional longhorns is a non-profit business. It is and I know it from experience. Aside from the business aspect, I personally enjoy the fact that I'm raising the purest form of original texas longhorn cattle that can be found. Proven by science and original believers in the preservation of the naturally evolved longhorn.

They may not grade the best, produce the most meat, or have gigantic horns, but damn they will live to be 20 years old and thrive on little-to-no input on property that a sh!t-roller wouldn't inhabit.
 
Ryan":8rv7udu0 said:
Blood typing has not been done away with. Just because it is not utilized does not mean it cannot be done:

TLBAA Handbook:

page 17, Article X, Section 2. - Eligibility of Registration
paragraph 3, line 3
"The Board of Directors, at its discretion, may require visual appraisal, DNA blood-typing, genetic marking, or other such tests as may becom available, with the costs of such testing to be borne by the applicant."

page 19, Article XII Fraudulent Entries or Transfers, Section 3. - Method of Clarification
"When, in the judgement of the majority of the Board of Directors, there is an apparent irregularity in an application for registration, the Board my require blood-typing and/or DNA testing of the animal in question, together with its sire and dam of record unless certified copies of prior blood-typing and/or DNA testing can be produced. The Board may choose the laboratory it desires to perform said blood-typing and/or DNA testing at the owner's expense. In the event both blood-typing and DNA testing have been performed on the animal in question, as well as the sire and the dam to said animal, and the parentage results should be conflicting, the majority of the Board of Directors shall determine which test shall be valid for entry into the Registry. Further, the decision of the majority of the Board of Directors shall be final and not subject to change at a future date, unless a new application should be made by the animal's owner."

RULES AND REGULATIONS
Section 6. - Disqualification
page 25, beginning on second to last line of page
"Any animal affected by an undesirable genetic recessive trait produced by a sire or dam registered in the Texas Longhorn Registry must be verified by a reputable institution and its ancestry proven by blood typing and/or DNA testing."

Section 7. - Artificial Insemination
E. Blood Typing and/or DNA Tests
*note the entire subset E. in section 7. - Artificial Insemination is titled Blood Typing and/or DNA Tests, and describes the blood typing and/or DNA testing needed or artificial insemination requirements

Blood typing and/or DNA testing is also mentioned in Section 7. - Artificial Insemination, subset F. TLBAA Rules of Registration of Clones and subset F. Embryo Transfer.

Ryan


Personally, I would welcome the Board of Directors, using their discretiion a little more frequently.

But then I'm just a small time breeder, and my opinion don't count for much.
 
warpaint":gd9i23mu said:
But then I'm just a small time breeder, and my opinion don't count for much.

Counts just as much as anyone else that pays their membership dues. Becoming more vocal or more active within the association and at meetings is the only way to have you opinion heard and matter.
 
Brandonm2":s513uu9o said:
What do yall think about these guys that clone these really really big horned longhorns....

http://www.maranch.com/70+%20Cows/70+%20Cows.htm

TLBAA Official Handbook: Article 1 - Purpose and object > The object and purpose of the Texas Longhorn Breeders Association of America is to recognize Texas Longhorn cattle as a distinct breed in order to protect the unique heritage of the Texas Longhorn and its link with the history of America: to promote breeding practices; to preserve its purity; to produce more public awareness of Texas Longhorn cattle as a distinct breed; to recognize breeders and to encourage others to develop and maintain herds which will be registered with the Association so as to preserve for posterity this magnificent breed of cattle; to aid in the advancement of scientific knowledge of the past ancestry and future breeding of Texas Longhorn cattle and to do such other things as may be in the best interest of Texas Longhorn cattle and none of which shall be for profit. > (Cloning, contrary to Article 1 of the TLBAA Official Handbook has no place in the TLBAA.) This is my opinion.

Rod
 
Wouldn't cloning effectively.....
"preserve for posterity this magnificent breed of cattle"

with more accuracy than any other means of promulgating the genetics.
 
Brandonm2":cxl1t3tq said:
Wouldn't cloning effectively.....
"preserve for posterity this magnificent breed of cattle"

with more accuracy than any other means of promulgating the genetics.

Each time an animal is cloned a few errors are introduced into the replicated genome. Cloning can't improve posterity from generation to generation. It all comes back to breeding and using good judgment.

Rod
 
Your right that cloning doesn't improve anything; but I was talking about "preserving" not improving.
 

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