WFfarm
Well-known member
Could someone explain "terminal breeding" or a terminal bull? I have an idea of what this means but was looking for what some of the more seasoned cattle people think.
Terminal Bull
- Thread starter WFfarm
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Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Generally it means using a bull that is a "growth" bull, and you sell ALL his calves. He is not designed to produce maternal traits.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Oh, and by the way :welcome: to the boards.
WFfarm
Well-known member
Thanks Jeanne. I assume that also means you're not concerned much about the Calving Ease EPD of a bull you're selecting and mainly chasing weight gain.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
WFfarm said:
You are most definitely concerned with CE in a terminal commercial operation.
I can't sell a dead calf.
Caustic Burno said:
Based on current prices, a dead calf would save me money.........
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
:lol: :lol:sstterry said:
CE is important in all aspects of breeding cows. But, "most" mature cows "should" be able to handle a pretty big calf. Depends on your cows & breed of terminal bull.
Ky hills
Well-known member
The way I would look at a terminal bull would be one that would add some growth but still be around breed average for CE and BW and I would avoid extremes in BW. Like CB said a dead calf isn't worth anything. Even if the calves come ok if they are bigger it can still cause some problems like causing some cows to not rebreed as quick or the calves may be a little slower to get up and about.
Silver
Well-known member
I have used some "terminal" bulls of a breed I won't mention (to avoid a bunch of hurt feelings) on my heifers in the past to buy myself some relief at calving time. I can now say I think the term "terminal" is something I have no use for. One person's terminal is another's maternal. Breed to make the best cows you can from the breed that you like and everything else will fall into place. Now when I hear the word terminal used with regards to any breed I start to feel a case of heartburn coming on. Just my thoughts.
Silver, that sounds like what my in laws dealt with in the '70's when they brought in their first (and last) Continental bull to try and boost weaning weights. I hear it was a train wreck of epic proportions.
Ky hills
Well-known member
TT, and Silver, I have been in a similar situation too, not a good thing financially or any other way. If someone has been through that then it definitely impacts how you proceed with caution in the future. I had a disaster of a year with a continental bull, even on cows of the same breed. Have had a bull from both major British breeds that I would definitely not want to calves anymore out to either. That's why I stress moderation at the most as far as BW, especially in a cross breeding scenario.
76 Bar
Well-known member
Poor selection parameters is the culprit, not a breed per se.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Ky hills said:
My preference is to get the vigor out of the cow. Brahman influenced cow with Angus or Hereford bull to suppress BW coupled with a cow that raises a calf that mash the scales.
Silver
Well-known member
TennesseeTuxedo said:
I fear I may have been misunderstood. I did not have a calving wreck, I used a British breed bull on my heifers thinking it might make my life easier. My plan was to sell all British influenced calves from these heifers because I did not want my cow herd to be "contaminated".
My learning was that one should just breed to make the best cows possible. If that's straight continental for you, or straight British or a mix then that's just fine. Personally I like a bit of a mix, and would never sell a heifer because of a fear of this "terminal" business. But I don't chase heterosis either, I figure good cows will win the day regardless, so if I'm happy with my cows I feel comfortable using whatever bulls I want and don't fear any repercussions from keeping replacements.
Silver said:
I understand.
Fact remains, years ago some of the newly introduced Continental bulls in the US didn't work out so well.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
TennesseeTuxedo said:
Exactly I wore out a set of chains pulling pallet head Char calves.
No one had ever heard of an EPD .
Silver
Well-known member
TennesseeTuxedo said:
That's a fact, but we need to remember the class of British cattle they were being crossed with at the time, it was a recipe for disaster.
True, today's cows are much larger.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Yes, fact is, people were quick to jump on the "more weaning weight" and were breeding 800-1000# cows to 2400# bulls. :shock: :shock:
Guess we were lucky in our choices of bulls (or cows). We started with crayon commercial cows and bred to FB Simmentals. Definitely did not have a train wreck. But, many people did.
LOL - have to laugh at myself. We were "horse" people back then. Decided to get some cows. Bought 12 bred cows for $425 each (1970-1971?). Didn't have a clue how to tell if they were getting close. Mares got wax on their teats!!!
Both of us worked in town. Came home one night and my mom was at our house with our daughter, and she was all excited and said you have a black calf born. We went out looking for the calf. Could not find a calf - could not figure out which cow "supposedly" calved. Told my mom there must have been a stray dog out in the field.
Next day, took our heeler out looking for the calf. After couple of hours, we found him.
You see, a mare doesn't leave her foal. They don't HIDE them. We kept going from cow to cow figuring the calf would be laying down right next to the mom - or the mom would be looking in the direction of the calf. Finally, dog found calf and cow was quick to arrive! LEARNING CURVE!!!! LOL
Guess we were lucky in our choices of bulls (or cows). We started with crayon commercial cows and bred to FB Simmentals. Definitely did not have a train wreck. But, many people did.
LOL - have to laugh at myself. We were "horse" people back then. Decided to get some cows. Bought 12 bred cows for $425 each (1970-1971?). Didn't have a clue how to tell if they were getting close. Mares got wax on their teats!!!
Both of us worked in town. Came home one night and my mom was at our house with our daughter, and she was all excited and said you have a black calf born. We went out looking for the calf. Could not find a calf - could not figure out which cow "supposedly" calved. Told my mom there must have been a stray dog out in the field.
Next day, took our heeler out looking for the calf. After couple of hours, we found him.
You see, a mare doesn't leave her foal. They don't HIDE them. We kept going from cow to cow figuring the calf would be laying down right next to the mom - or the mom would be looking in the direction of the calf. Finally, dog found calf and cow was quick to arrive! LEARNING CURVE!!!! LOL
