Stop the train

[Anonymous]

As far as purchased cows go, so far we cull on average 50% of the purchased breds. Various reason but mostly for poor doers or being open. But we also go into figuring to get a live calf of unknown qualit. That gives us a chance to see what the cow is capable of. It's a crap shoot but it pays off sometimes. My best cow is a 450.00 cow that weaned off a low 600 lb heifer( guessed weight) during a drought and on grass and hay only.

 

[Limomike]

This is one of those "agree to disagree" threads.

I can see pros and cons to both sides of the argument but when the day comes I would hope to be able to retain a certain percentage of my heifers for many of the reasons outlined in this thread already. In the meantime I'll be purchasing proven cows and building my herd that way.

I "AGREE" with that statement TT

 

[VanC]

In a commercial operation there is no genetic benifit to retaining your own.

This can't be true in most operations. I'd think it would benefit anyone to use the best genetics they can afford. if they have a good, reputable source for replacements, then fine. If not, then retaining your own might be the best option.

 

[Caustic Burno]

In a commercial operation there is no genetic benifit to retaining your own.

This can't be true in most operations. I'd think it would benefit anyone to use the best genetics they can afford. if they have a good, reputable source for replacements, then fine. If not, then retaining your own might be the best option.

It is true in 99.9% of commercial operation's there is no genetic advantage on retaining calf's off a terminal bull.
You can buy as good or better cow's all day long and run a good bull a lot longer. Just have to get over being pasture blind. In a registered operation that is a whole different ballgame.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

How does hybrid vigor and cross breeding figure in on this CB?

 

[Caustic Burno]

How does hybrid vigor and cross breeding figure in on this CB?

Once you get past a 3 way cross you are getting to many crayon's in the box.
That is just science. Two way cross up to 10% at weaning over straight bred three way up to 20%.
It has been researched to death.

This is a pretty good read.

http://msucares.com/livestock/beef/geneticslunch4.pdf

http://www.thecattlesite.com/articles/8 ... eef-cattle

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Thanks CB.

 

[salebarn junkie]

I hate heifers nothing worse than messing with one for 2 years and it not milking good, not taking care of the calf, not breeding back, i could go on forever.

This sounds a lot like buying culls at the salebarn. The only calves that I have had to pull were from heifers bought there.

Where does my post say anything about pulling calves. If you havent pulled a calf from a heifer you have raised you havent raised very many heifers.

 

[North Ridge Ranching]

In a commercial operation there is no genetic benifit to retaining your own.

This can't be true in most operations. I'd think it would benefit anyone to use the best genetics they can afford. if they have a good, reputable source for replacements, then fine. If not, then retaining your own might be the best option.

It is true in 99.9% of commercial operation's there is no genetic advantage on retaining calf's off a terminal bull.
You can buy as good or better cow's all day long and run a good bull a lot longer. Just have to get over being pasture blind. In a registered operation that is a whole different ballgame.

I was going to reply to this, and then I wasn't, but I just have to. You must really think you are the only guy out there to have this business figured out to make a narrow minded statement like that. I have a couple questions :

1. What is your source of these "proven cows".
2. Do you think a "proven cow" you buy will last longer in your herd than one you raise?
3. Why will a bull last longer if you buy your replacements? Unless you have an extremely small herd or horrible records, you should be able to run a bull in your herd as long as he can go without breeding any of his daughters.
4. Why is there no genetic advantage to keeping your own heifers? I would think knowing the genetics, and not just the breeding, of your cows is a huge advantage to buying cows that you don't know any of the genetics about.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, and I know we will end up agreeing to disagree, but I don't like a blanket statement like that with nothing to back it up.

 

[hillbillycwo]

This thread got me thinking....scary I know. I have been retaining heifers based on the quality of there dams. Meaning...If there dams milk well, are easy keepers, breed back on time, are attentive to there calves and are easy to handle. I also cull the bottom cows that don't do these things well. Am I missing something? Please advise.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

This thread got me thinking....scary I know. I have been retaining heifers based on the quality of there dams. Meaning...If there dams milk well, are easy keepers, breed back on time, are attentive to there calves and are easy to handle. I also cull the bottom cows that don't do these things well. Am I missing something? Please advise.

I think that you're being way to logical in your process.

 

[regolith]

The two words "terminal bull" qualify a lot of the preceeding statements.

I wouldn't go back to buying in cows if I had the option to breed and raise them. It takes three years to see the results come through (9 months to be born then two years to calving) and another two years for these cows to mature into peak production but from there the genetic gain just keeps on building, and having heifers that are familiar with me and the herd and how I run things is a big help too - bought-in cows can take a long time to fully fit in and calm down.

Do you really need the answer to that one hillbillycwo? The bit you're missing - you haven't mentioned the bull, is he going to improve your cows? Aside from that, the tougher you are in selecting dams/culling the better result you should get.

 

[hillbillycwo]

Reg,
I bought a low BW GV bull that I thought would do just that. I had his numbers reviewed by a few folks on here and they agreed for the money I had to invest that he should produce some nice heifers. He has in my opinion. I compare mine to neighbors and what I see hitting the markets and have had some folks who are excellent cattle men look them over. Next bull will hopefully be even better and I will be relying once again on the wisdom of many of you onhere to help me in that selection process to continue to improve my herd.

I truly appreciate all the advice given! Thanks!

 

[hillbillycwo]

Oh yeah Reg, no I didn't completely forget that just figured that was understood. Learned along time ago your bull is 50% of your herd. (that was a hard lesson) lol.

 

[Caustic Burno]

This thread got me thinking....scary I know. I have been retaining heifers based on the quality of there dams. Meaning...If there dams milk well, are easy keepers, breed back on time, are attentive to there calves and are easy to handle. I also cull the bottom cows that don't do these things well. Am I missing something? Please advise.

Just science again.

Reproductive traits are less heritable,
translate: many of the differences we
observe in cow reproductive traits are not
due to genetics of the cow.

 

[regolith]

This thread got me thinking....scary I know. I have been retaining heifers based on the quality of there dams. Meaning...If there dams milk well, are easy keepers, breed back on time, are attentive to there calves and are easy to handle. I also cull the bottom cows that don't do these things well. Am I missing something? Please advise.

Just science again.

Reproductive traits are less heritable,
translate: many of the differences we
observe in cow reproductive traits are not
due to genetics of the cow.

Now that, I agree with.
However I'm still of the opinion that less heritable traits can be 'fixed' by selecting consistently for them.

 

[Caustic Burno]

NRR refer to table 4 for the F-1 system it is just science again.

http://www.thecattlesite.com/articles/8 ... eef-cattle

 

[hillbillycwo]

Is that why I noticed a much better rebreed rate after my red clover became more established? CB/Reg?

 

[Stocker Steve]

This thread got me thinking....scary I know. I have been retaining heifers based on the quality of there dams. Meaning...If there dams milk well, are easy keepers, breed back on time, are attentive to there calves and are easy to handle. I also cull the bottom cows that don't do these things well. Am I missing something? Please advise.

I think you nailed the basic approach - - buy good bulls and sell poor cows. AI may be an accelerator.
I did some hard cull'in and out crossed to a Limi bull last year. Calving percent is way- - was a 100% till I lost one last week.

 

[HDRider]

Simple question - If most folks cull their cows for their undesirable traits and you do not have a trusted source for good replacements, how is it better to buy a cow than raise up a cow? In other words, aren't you likely buying someone's reject?