So please tell me, who's getting rich on the cow?

[Travlr]

Chickens and cows:

Chicken houses are around 50 feet by 500 feet (and trending bigger). Little more than half an acre. Parking area for loadout, access roads, litter storage sheds, space between houses - let's say 2 acres per house for land. That $20,000 profit per house then becomes $10,000 per acre. Compare that to pasture for cows. Heavy environmental regulations and permitting on chicken houses may require buffer space between the houses and the property lines which then require more acreage and reduces those numbers. But still, compare to cows on pasture.
Many chicken growers here also have cattle. I think most started with cattle and added chickens. Those guys get "free" fertilizer for the pastures. Buffer zones around houses are pastures with cattle. It is a combination that works for some. Shared equipment and labor between the two.
Here there are 3 chicken companies, so some competition and choices. One neighbor with 8 houses recently changed companies and estimated that he will make an additional $100k per year with the swap. He tends to be overly optimistic, so maybe "only" half that much. He did have to make significant changes to the heating systems and additions to the evaporative cooling systems. About $150,000 of changes I think. He also does construction work - tractor trailers, excavators, dozers, big wheeled loaders. He is ambitious. Has lots of cows as well. Ten years ago, he cleared some land for me. He had a 1980 Case 1450 and an old small excavator and an old Ford 9000 dump truck at that time. I don't think he is going broke.

What is my point of all this rambling? That things change and a person has to adapt. My grandfather farmed all his life on about 100 acres. No tractor until he was in his 70's. Then an 8N Ford. Milked a few cows by hand and sold milk, wife churned and made butter, had 3 small curtain sided chicken houses and feed by hand out of a push cart with a hand scoop into feeders scattered in the house, a few hogs, grew some crops, cut hay and stacked it around a wood pole in the ground or threw it loose in the loft of a barn with a pitchfork. He was in his 90's when he died. Raised 4 children and was "succcessful". But that approach would not work now. But, he was happy with life.

You can feed chicken litter to cattle too.

 

[Schmitty]

It is partly that the butcher paper and vacuum packing supplies are costing more. It is also that the butcher needs the increase in wages just to keep up... inflation was 8.5% as of yesterdays data... bigger is harder to handle and requires more time... so that translates into more wages... if the butcher is employing anyone, he is paying more in wages, more in insurance and all that... a little might be that they are the "only game in town" also, so charge more because they can get it... but most are not that callous... Electricity and all that costs more too... and add in that most are swamped with work so they charge a little more to maybe slow down the work load??? 2017 I paid $45 kill, .48/ to process, cube steak was .35 lb, vacuum pack .10 lb... 2019 I paid $55 kill, .57 /lb to process.. same on the rest. I don't have a ticket for this year in front of me. I think my son said it was .75/ lb to process last Dec... We have always figured that it cost around $1.00 lb for the hanging weight to get it into the freezer... it will be more this year.
Due to the nature of my job, and a cap on any increases in wages, I make the same as I did 5 years ago... 25 yr seniority is the cap for "raises" ... got an increase in the mileage back in January, but that is long used up with the huge increases in gas in the last 3 months... If I was 15 years younger, I would have been looking for a different job or a side part-time job, to make up for the actual "decrease" in what my wages can buy. Since I am working less, and don't have to rely on this to just pay the bills, I can manage on it. A young person cannot take this job and make a living on it anymore.

I can agree they are the only game in town, they used to do wild game processing during hunting season but had to drop those customers to keep up with the farm demand. I've used the same mobile slaughter guy and butcher for 15 years at least, so I know that the butcher subs out two different mobile slaughter companies to provide them with the livestock they cut/wrap. The butcher told me that they set the slaughter guys schedule by how much available cold locker room they have. They said the slaughter guys can obviously outpace how much they can process in terms of how many they can bring in. Which is why if you want any beef, pork, lamb processed that year, you have to call in and get on the slaughter list four times six months in advance.

 

[simme]

You can feed chicken litter to cattle too.

Originally called poultry litter silage. Tried that many years ago in an extreme drought. May be best to blend it with corn silage as it goes in the pit. I don't know anyone that feeds it long term. Can be pretty controversial. Nonfarm people as well as many farm people are vocal opponents.

 

[simme]

I knew a guy who had 3 houses. They were about 3 years old and not paid off. The company jerked his contract because he complained too loudly about something. Another company wouldn't give him a contract. He went bankrupt. Bank took his place and sold it. The chicken company gave the new owner a contract to raise birds for them.

I can't comment on that instance. But a couple local examples where I do know the details. A guy with several houses also has crops and cows. Cows are very thin in winter due to lack of hay or very poor hay. Crops are eat up in weeds because he does not spray until the weeds are over waist high. He is not a good manager. Buys equipment and it gets repossessed. Chicken company sends their field man to check on chickens regularly. He would have the heat turned down or off "to save money" on gas. He would have the breakers turned off on fans to "save money on electricity". He would not keep the houses repaired or follow the plan. He would chew them out when he was told to shape up. His chickens did not perform well and production costs were high for the chicken company. They quit putting chickens in the houses. Then he sold to a family member who grows chickens there today.

Middle age husband dies and wife continues to grow chickens with her alcoholic boyfriend. He pulls a knife or gun on one of the catch crew guys due to a disagreement and alcohol. Police come, chicken company management come to supervise loadout. No more chickens go in the house. She has to sell out and new responsible owner grows chickens there now.

Reasonable good management will return reasonable good results. Better management will return better results. Poor management and decisions will have bad outcomes. Chicken companies review performance and bad performers are subject to having to improve. Seems reasonable in my two examples. They want and need good responsible growers in order to produce chickens. If everyone does their job, usually things work out.

 

[Dave]

I can't comment on that instance.

Reasonable good management will return reasonable good results. Better management will return better results. Poor management and decisions will have bad outcomes. Chicken companies review performance and bad performers are subject to having to improve. Seems reasonable in my two examples. They want and need good responsible growers in order to produce chickens. If everyone does their job, usually things work out.

In the instance I wrote about. There is or was an organization called Washington Fryer Growers which dates back to when all the growers were independent. The man I knew was an officer in that organization. The company decided to stop using any form of antibiotics. There was a known sickness killing a lot of chickens in his houses. Easy cure with the antibiotics which the company wouldn't allow. He was trying everything he could to cure the problem. The company took the loss of birds out of his pocket. He was vocal about this at the Fryer Grower's meeting. Next thing you know he had no contract.
Personally I do my best to avoid these company grown 6 week old chickens. I find them to be a poor excuse for chicken in both flavor and texture. There is no comparison to slower raised home raised chicken. That is my personal opinion.

 

[Fishman52]

As a kid I was raised in an area with lots of berry and vegetable farms. There wasn't any "cheap Mexican labor" in those days. Kids 10-16 years of age picked the berries and worked on the farms. The bigger farms had old school buses that they drove on routes to pick the kids up. It was good for the farmers and good for the kids.

People used to have large families but not anymore. Plus kids these days don't want to manual labor. Not sure where all of this winds up in the near future.

 

[burroughs85]

The people in the beef sectors are fighting for their slice of the pie. Pork and poultry don't have that. People tending to the pigs and chickens have little say in production techniques, genetics, marketing and prices. They work on a detailed contract that defines how much they will be paid based on specific measurable targets. With intense supervision on adherence to following the company plan for the work tasks. The breeder, feed supplier, supervisor, loadout person, hauler, processor, marketing person and distributor are all the same. They are high volume.

Who has the better deal? The cow/calf guy or the chicken/pig grower?

I don't understand all that crap. I do know Walmart 7% lean ground beef is about $5.50/lb. (out of my pocket) when it goes into my freezer at home. There 30% fat Wally ground beef is about a buck less a pound. More fat, less money. I can't see the huge costs of making a pound of deli roast beef vs a pound of lean ground beef from Australia that even has to cross a Pacific Ocean. The deli roast beef doesn't even have to enter meat grinder. Is fuel to slow roast that deli roast beef an arm and leg? Maybe the delicatessen owner's have big markup. They do add some seasoning. I buy good SMOKED sliced lean deli ham for about $3.50-$4.oo a pound to fry with my morning eggs, over medium. There was the cost of smoking that ham. Yes, consumers might like it if the cow biz was run like the pig and chicken biz. Deli ham is pretty cheap but not Italian dry salami also made of pork. I bought a 12 oz pack of Columbus sliced salami not long ago from Walmart at about $10 for the pack. The deli meats biz must mean big markup.

 

[Dave]

People used to have large families but not anymore. Plus kids these days don't want to manual labor. Not sure where all of this winds up in the near future.

People in my area didn't have large families back then. And kids never want to do manual labor. Nothing new there. I don't know about the motivation of all the kids back then but our was we had to buy our own school cloths. Motivation was plain and simple. You want x you have to earn the money yourself. I knew kids who didn't pick berries but the found themselves other jobs to make money.

 

[CowboyRam]

Our farm used to have 4000 chickens years ago. One of the barns we converted to storage units. Dad was not going to have any chickens. We are only six miles out of town right on the highway; we seam to stay full. The only issue I see is we are dealing with more people.

 

[burroughs85]

I'm for producing healthful and wholesome foods humans can actually afford with as little bad impact on the ecology as possible. This was done quite feasibly back in the days when man's numbers were much less and many more people were into (small scale) agriculture. Chemical pesticides and fertilizers are pure poison. Excessive cultivation causes dust and land erosion. The Amish farming system seems to be a good model.

 

[Ky hills]

To quote Oliver Wendell Douglas "Oh for the love of…"

 

[BFE]

I don't know that pencils out here if I get top dollar for 5 wt and 8wt. You're talking couple hundred bucks to put another 300 pounds.
I would have to put a sharp pencil to it.
Yesterday's prices.

https://easttexaslivestock.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Market-Report-4-12-22-Apr-12-2022-8-49-PM.pdf

Same here, sometimes less. I've caught hell on here for saying this, but 5-575 gets you the best dollars to pounds for lower input around here. The hit gets bigger on heifers.

 

[farmerjan]

I'm for producing healthful and wholesome foods humans can actually afford with as little bad impact on the ecology as possible. This was done quite feasibly back in the days when man's numbers were much less and many more people were into (small scale) agriculture. Chemical pesticides and fertilizers are pure poison. Excessive cultivation causes dust and land erosion. The Amish farming system seems to be a good model.

Unless they are certified organic, I can tell you that the Amish and Mennonites use pesticides and herbicides just like any other conventional farmer. I work with many of them and spend time on their farms.
There were as many or more crop failures back in the "good ole days" that you are romanticizing... it was not done "quite feasibly" as you say... crops were not near as productive and people ate less and made do with less. Sure, many of us probably need to eat a little less... There was a lot more hand labor, and as far as the excessive cultivation causing dust and erosion... that is true... but that is why minimum tillage and no-till has become popular and to do so then you need some herbicides to control the weeds.
I grow a completely "organic " garden, I tend to have some severe reactions to some of the chemicals used on the farms.... I don't like "poisoning" the land... I mulch heavily and do any cultivating by hand that needs to be done... Unless you are going to go back to the horse and plow, and that is fine if you want to... but it is not a practical way to produce enough to survive and make a living. That is why organic crops that go into organic feed are so expensive... because of the man hours that have to go into the crops. And if they are honest they will tell you about the failures and the cost to their bottom line.
The Amish and Mennonites live by a different set of rules... their churches will finance them if they want to buy property BUT..... you will tow their line for that privilege. Some of the things they do are wonderful ways to live... they take care of their own... but you have to tow the line in order to be accepted in that circle.
They are also hypocrites in some ways... not allow electricity in their homes, but many of them have the electricity in their barns and so a freezer and other things that are not in the public's view. Can't own a vehicle but think nothing of hiring someone to take them somewhere... or the ones that have tractors, to drive their tractors to places we would normally drive our truck to...
Many are good stewards of the land... but an animal is just a commodity to them. It either serves a purpose, or they get rid of it... there is no room for emotional attachment to anything. They will use an antibiotic to treat an animal just the same as you or I... if the animal does not come around quickly, it is culled as soon as it can be legally sold... I have seen them sell a good milking cow because she takes too long in the barn... holds up a shift of cows. There will be more to come along to take her place. No sentimental feelings are wasted on their animals....They are not cruel, just believe that the animal is there for their benefit and if it does not "show a profit" in one form or another, it needs to be replaced. Cut and dry...
Some of the biggest "puppy mills" are on Amish farms.... they are in it to make a profit; they provide basic care but there is no place for sentiment

 

[puzzled in oregon]

Same here, sometimes less. I've caught hell on here for saying this, but 5-575 gets you the best dollars to pounds for lower input around here. The hit gets bigger on heifers.

In my area the price on heifers drops .10/lb if they go over 500 lbs., another .10/lb if they go over 600 lbs. The steers drop .10/lb if they go over 600 lbs. and another .10/lb if they go over 700 lbs. And of course having spots is an automatic drop of .20/lb, no matter what she weighs.

 

[Son of Butch]

In my area the price on heifers drops .10/lb if they go over 500 lbs., another .10/lb if they go over 600 lbs. The steers drop .10/lb if they go over 600 lbs. and another .10/lb if they go over 700 lbs.

Yes but, the total price goes up about 3-5% as CausticBurno said you'll need to pencil it out as to what works best for you when selling and buying.
You need to determine the profit or loss on those extra pounds.

 

[puzzled in oregon]

You can feed chicken litter to cattle too.

But chickens and turkeys carry salmonella

 

[BFE]

At the feeder sale I went to I sold at early this month, the difference between the avg 523# and avg 783# group steers was around $144 a head. That's 55.4 cents a pound to put on that extra 260 pounds.

Heifers 529# vs. 759# was $78.70. 34.2 cents a pound for 230 pound gain. If I were running a feedlot, I'd fill it with 7-900 feeders. Those pounds between 600-8 or 900 are the cheapest to buy. Don't make sense or cents for me to put them on. I'm better off buying 3-400 pound unworked calves and putting 200 pound on. Faster turnaround, better money.

 

[SBMF 2015]

Originally called poultry litter silage. Tried that many years ago in an extreme drought. May be best to blend it with corn silage as it goes in the pit. I don't know anyone that feeds it long term. Can be pretty controversial. Nonfarm people as well as many farm people are vocal opponents.

That sounds like ponch. There is a custom feed lot pretty close to our local Tyson plant. They get all the stomach contents of all the cattle that are butchered. It is dried and looks like green wood shavings.
They claim the cattle do really well on it as part of their TMR. It's not only feed, but also has a lot of the microbes in it.

 

[burroughs85]

Unless they are certified organic, I can tell you that the Amish and Mennonites use pesticides and herbicides just like any other conventional farmer. I work with many of them and spend time on their farms.
There were as many or more crop failures back in the "good ole days" that you are romanticizing... it was not done "quite feasibly" as you say... crops were not near as productive and people ate less and made do with less. Sure, many of us probably need to eat a little less... There was a lot more hand labor, and as far as the excessive cultivation causing dust and erosion... that is true... but that is why minimum tillage and no-till has become popular and to do so then you need some herbicides to control the weeds.
I grow a completely "organic " garden, I tend to have some severe reactions to some of the chemicals used on the farms.... I don't like "poisoning" the land... I mulch heavily and do any cultivating by hand that needs to be done... Unless you are going to go back to the horse and plow, and that is fine if you want to... but it is not a practical way to produce enough to survive and make a living. That is why organic crops that go into organic feed are so expensive... because of the man hours that have to go into the crops. And if they are honest they will tell you about the failures and the cost to their bottom line.
The Amish and Mennonites live by a different set of rules... their churches will finance them if they want to buy property BUT..... you will tow their line for that privilege. Some of the things they do are wonderful ways to live... they take care of their own... but you have to tow the line in order to be accepted in that circle.
They are also hypocrites in some ways... not allow electricity in their homes, but many of them have the electricity in their barns and so a freezer and other things that are not in the public's view. Can't own a vehicle but think nothing of hiring someone to take them somewhere... or the ones that have tractors, to drive their tractors to places we would normally drive our truck to...
Many are good stewards of the land... but an animal is just a commodity to them. It either serves a purpose, or they get rid of it... there is no room for emotional attachment to anything. They will use an antibiotic to treat an animal just the same as you or I... if the animal does not come around quickly, it is culled as soon as it can be legally sold... I have seen them sell a good milking cow because she takes too long in the barn... holds up a shift of cows. There will be more to come along to take her place. No sentimental feelings are wasted on their animals....They are not cruel, just believe that the animal is there for their benefit and if it does not "show a profit" in one form or another, it needs to be replaced. Cut and dry...
Some of the biggest "puppy mills" are on Amish farms.... they are in it to make a profit; they provide basic care but there is no place for sentiment

At one time during history, there were no chemicals in farming. Ladybugs are natural pest controllers. Manure can fertilize quite well. Are there any tractors and combines nowadays that don't burn those dirty fossil fuels?


Man's sheer numbers: major environmental threat. Man has overpopulated well beyond ecological soundness.

more people = more pollution, more waste, more litter, more consumption of resources, some rare and/or non-renewable, more erosion of land, greater loss of habitat for wildlife, endangerment and extinction of vital species, greater dependency on destructive mass agriculture which erodes the land, pollutes the air with dust and relies on unhealthful chemicals and genetic engineering

Humans are too numerous for their own damn good.

 

[burroughs85]

....