simme
Old Dumb Guy
I think we agree on that free market concept and keeping the government out of it. Not sure that others agree.
So please tell me, who's getting rich on the cow?
- Thread starter burroughs85
- Start date
Help Support CattleToday:
Ky hills
Well-known member
From what I see the government (politicians on both sides) has in large part caused the whole mess by by allowing themselves to be bought and paid for by the big companies that can shell out a lot more money and therefore more influence than the individuals which cattle producers are.
They have made the legislation and regulations that keep the competition down, and thus give an unfair preference to one over the other.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
The people in the beef sectors are fighting for their slice of the pie. Pork and poultry don't have that. People tending to the pigs and chickens have little say in production techniques, genetics, marketing and prices. They work on a detailed contract that defines how much they will be paid based on specific measurable targets. With intense supervision on adherence to following the company plan for the work tasks. The breeder, feed supplier, supervisor, loadout person, hauler, processor, marketing person and distributor are all the same. They are high volume.
Who has the better deal? The cow/calf guy or the chicken/pig grower?
Who has the better deal? The cow/calf guy or the chicken/pig grower?
Ky hills
Well-known member
If they could do that to the beef industry they would in a heartbeat. No doubt it's their goal to vertically integrate it as well.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
Here, there is lots more money made by the chicken grower than the cow/calf guy. Need to be a good manager for either. Chickens don't have that "feel good" thing that calves do, but better income.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
Thats because they buy boxed beef for retail sale.
By law retail sales have to be USDA inspected.
94% of butcher shops are not usda inspected, so they buy usda inspected boxed beef from processors and cut it up themselves for retail.
Boxed Beef Prices 4/13/2022
choice 600-900 lb carcasses 2.74 lb
select 600-900 lb 2.59 lb
don't want the whole carcass?
boxed primal loin graded choice 3.77 lb select 3.44 lb
primal rib choice 4.28 select 3.92 lb
lean trimmings 50% 1.27 lb
10 lb chubs ground beef 73% course 1.82 lb fine 2.00
10 lb chubs ground beef 93% course 3.83 lb fine 4.02 lb
and so on
Son of Butch
Well-known member
Thats because they buy boxed beef and cut it for retail sale.
By law retail sales have to be USDA inspected.
94% of butcher shops are not usda inspected, so they buy usda inspected boxed beef from processors.
Boxed Beef Prices 4/13/2022
choice 600-900 lb carcasses 2.74 lb
select 600-900 lb 2.59 lb
don't want the whole carcass?
boxed primal loin graded choice 3.77 lb select 3.44 lb
primal rib choice 4.28 select 3.92 lb
lean trimmings 50% 1.27 lb
10 lb chubs ground beef 73% course 1.82 lb fine 2.00
10 lb chubs ground beef 93% course 3.83 lb fine 4.02 lb
and so on, for whatever parts you want.
Semi loads of boxed receive a discount and economy of scale works in favor of the big buyers.
grrr double posting, tried to delete without success, sorry
Last edited:
Nesikep
Well-known member
If it's going to be a free market with no gov't involvement, then it has to truly be NO gov't involvement.. not just halfway pestering the small guys that can't employ dedicated people to comply with the regs
I should have said processing plant I help at from time to time. Small custom operation. They throw the bones in a blue barrel. Some of the waste is used for dog food. No market for the hides here.
I agree with that on todays prices if you know what the 5 weight calves being sold were. Had they been weaned for 45 days, fed at all, vaccinated, etc. Lets say you only get $100 extra per head @ 825 after all your expenses. If you have 100 calves that's 10k lets say you have 200 calves? A friend of mine runs 370 hd so he sells around 325 calves a year. Is it worth him making an extra $100 a hd? It's a numbers game, just like the packers or Wal mart. The more you sell the more you stand to make.....or loose.
I'm not saying everyone should background their calves but at the same time we can't point the finger at one group when we take the easy way out by selling right off the tit instead of putting our time in and doing our best to maximize profits. I've sold calves off the tit, weaned 60 days, fed until spring, and kept them until they were green yearlings that weighed 825#. More pounds more often then not equals more profit. Most calves will gain around 1.5-1.75 pounds a day on 8 pounds of feed. Feed cost this year were .15 cents a pound. So spend a $1.20 to make $2.25 - 2.50 a head per day. sounds good to me.
Lee VanRoss
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2020
- Messages
- 2,392
- Reaction score
- 2,682
Senate Bill S. 543 To Amend the Packers and Stockyard Act of 1921 is scheduled to come up for debate in late April
.to establish a cattle contract library and for other purposes. I am fairly sure at least one of the other purposes will include
Country of Origin Labeling. One letter from a constituent to your US Senator will carry more weight and get more results
than any internet blog. Price transparency will be the main item of interest. This would, among other concerns, speak to
international shippers who do not comply with US standards and then expect their product to be sold as U S beef.
As it stands now there are cattle being bought at less than true value due to lack of accurate market reporting.
.to establish a cattle contract library and for other purposes. I am fairly sure at least one of the other purposes will include
Country of Origin Labeling. One letter from a constituent to your US Senator will carry more weight and get more results
than any internet blog. Price transparency will be the main item of interest. This would, among other concerns, speak to
international shippers who do not comply with US standards and then expect their product to be sold as U S beef.
As it stands now there are cattle being bought at less than true value due to lack of accurate market reporting.
Ky hills
Well-known member
We don't have any commercial poultry farms in this area. There are several in the western part of the state though where a lot of crops are grown.
From what I understand it takes at least 3 chicken barns for the farmer to make any money at it.
Here locally, most farms used to raise a little tobacco. It put food on a many a table for years. Then when the companies started going to contract growers they gave fewer and fewer each year. Now there is just a handful of growers left and they raise large amounts.
The beef cattle are the last stand as far as animal agriculture for the small farmer. Sheep and goats would have to gain a lot more market share.
Used to be all the small farms had a variety of livestock that was marketed locally or regionally around here. Would have been nice if it had stayed that way.
The communities would have been in a lot better position. Now everything is specialized and we are at the mercy of corporations and trucking/shipping and availability.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
All true but instead of using resources to background it could be supporting more cows to produce 5wt calves bringing much more than the background calf.
No simple answer here.
Hot dogs?
You are correct CB. There's definitely no simple answer to the problems in the beef industry. I've looked at everyway I can think of and watched what a lot of people I know do and just decided on what I like and what works for me.
I know several guys that have chicken houses and they say it's around 20k per house profit. I really think there will be contract cattle growers if there's not already. The biggest problem I see is time. It takes about 45 days to get a chicken from a chick to a killing size of 6-8 pounds. It takes 18 months to grow a baby calf out.
The biggest deal with chicken houses is that you don't just wake up one morning and get out. I'd guess a modern chicken house at $350,000 now days and you'll need 4-6 of them. Some of the guys here are leasing theirs out but the houses ar still right next to their house.
farmerjan
Well-known member
One of the problems with the poultry houses is not the getting in... but the staying in.... most of the dairy farmers in this area put up one or 2 to diversify and have the available litter for fertilizer or to sell. BUT.... it is all good until you have several bad groups of chicks/poults that don't do good... then they start coming down on you even if that batch of chicks/poults were problems for every one... Also... once you get the houses close to being paid off... they want you to do this upgrade or that and you are looking at thousands of dollars to change the systems or whatever... Then they decide they need more layer houses instead of broilers, so want you to do a major overhaul... and the equipment wears out.
With the turkeys, I have one farmer that grew hens for years... then the house was about paid off and they needed more light toms... then they went to heavy toms... the toms beat the he// out of the feeders and all... You are at the mercy of the poultry company. Another farmer did not want to do the upgrades and so when his contract ran out, they refused to renew it so now he has 2 houses sitting... empty... and the different companies will not "cross the line" and take him on from the other company...
They have good and bad points... you do make money at it... One dairy farmer I test for put up 2 turkey houses and said it is the easiest money he has ever made farming..... I wonder what he will think when the houses are 15-20 years old instead of 5 years old...
With the turkeys, I have one farmer that grew hens for years... then the house was about paid off and they needed more light toms... then they went to heavy toms... the toms beat the he// out of the feeders and all... You are at the mercy of the poultry company. Another farmer did not want to do the upgrades and so when his contract ran out, they refused to renew it so now he has 2 houses sitting... empty... and the different companies will not "cross the line" and take him on from the other company...
They have good and bad points... you do make money at it... One dairy farmer I test for put up 2 turkey houses and said it is the easiest money he has ever made farming..... I wonder what he will think when the houses are 15-20 years old instead of 5 years old...
Nick Wagner
Well-known member
The CAB program from the start was intended to improve the value and sales of Angus bulls. That's why the hide doesn't have to be pure black. I never heard any talk about it turning every other breed in the country black at the time the program was started. It seems everybody wants on the train now that it pays a premium. I've even heard talk of black Herefords.
Travlr
Well-known member
The Law of Unintended Consequences really shows in the Certified Black Angus program. Yes, it was intended to sell bulls... but the effects have gone far beyond that. Genetic lack of diversity across the entire industry as breeds scramble to get black... and an unfair advantage at point of sale for cattle intended for slaughter.
The thing I can't figure out is why buyers and packers have bought into it. Personally, I see it as a great opportunity for a class action lawsuit. Buyers are paying less for red/white animals they KNOW will grade as high as any black hide and will end up in a cellophane wrapped package with a CAB label on it. Everyone raising superior cattle-not-black have a real problem and it's hurting the entire industry. The consumer is too ignorant to understand what is going on and they don't really care anyways. The buyers and packers have a responsibility and are getting away with murder.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
Chickens and cows:
Chicken houses are around 50 feet by 500 feet (and trending bigger). Little more than half an acre. Parking area for loadout, access roads, litter storage sheds, space between houses - let's say 2 acres per house for land. That $20,000 profit per house then becomes $10,000 per acre. Compare that to pasture for cows. Heavy environmental regulations and permitting on chicken houses may require buffer space between the houses and the property lines which then require more acreage and reduces those numbers. But still, compare to cows on pasture.
Many chicken growers here also have cattle. I think most started with cattle and added chickens. Those guys get "free" fertilizer for the pastures. Buffer zones around houses are pastures with cattle. It is a combination that works for some. Shared equipment and labor between the two.
Here there are 3 chicken companies, so some competition and choices. One neighbor with 8 houses recently changed companies and estimated that he will make an additional $100k per year with the swap. He tends to be overly optimistic, so maybe "only" half that much. He did have to make significant changes to the heating systems and additions to the evaporative cooling systems. About $150,000 of changes I think. He also does construction work - tractor trailers, excavators, dozers, big wheeled loaders. He is ambitious. Has lots of cows as well. Ten years ago, he cleared some land for me. He had a 1980 Case 1450 and an old small excavator and an old Ford 9000 dump truck at that time. I don't think he is going broke.
What is my point of all this rambling? That things change and a person has to adapt. My grandfather farmed all his life on about 100 acres. No tractor until he was in his 70's. Then an 8N Ford. Milked a few cows by hand and sold milk, wife churned and made butter, had 3 small curtain sided chicken houses and feed by hand out of a push cart with a hand scoop into feeders scattered in the house, a few hogs, grew some crops, cut hay and stacked it around a wood pole in the ground or threw it loose in the loft of a barn with a pitchfork. He was in his 90's when he died. Raised 4 children and was "succcessful". But that approach would not work now. But, he was happy with life.
Chicken houses are around 50 feet by 500 feet (and trending bigger). Little more than half an acre. Parking area for loadout, access roads, litter storage sheds, space between houses - let's say 2 acres per house for land. That $20,000 profit per house then becomes $10,000 per acre. Compare that to pasture for cows. Heavy environmental regulations and permitting on chicken houses may require buffer space between the houses and the property lines which then require more acreage and reduces those numbers. But still, compare to cows on pasture.
Many chicken growers here also have cattle. I think most started with cattle and added chickens. Those guys get "free" fertilizer for the pastures. Buffer zones around houses are pastures with cattle. It is a combination that works for some. Shared equipment and labor between the two.
Here there are 3 chicken companies, so some competition and choices. One neighbor with 8 houses recently changed companies and estimated that he will make an additional $100k per year with the swap. He tends to be overly optimistic, so maybe "only" half that much. He did have to make significant changes to the heating systems and additions to the evaporative cooling systems. About $150,000 of changes I think. He also does construction work - tractor trailers, excavators, dozers, big wheeled loaders. He is ambitious. Has lots of cows as well. Ten years ago, he cleared some land for me. He had a 1980 Case 1450 and an old small excavator and an old Ford 9000 dump truck at that time. I don't think he is going broke.
What is my point of all this rambling? That things change and a person has to adapt. My grandfather farmed all his life on about 100 acres. No tractor until he was in his 70's. Then an 8N Ford. Milked a few cows by hand and sold milk, wife churned and made butter, had 3 small curtain sided chicken houses and feed by hand out of a push cart with a hand scoop into feeders scattered in the house, a few hogs, grew some crops, cut hay and stacked it around a wood pole in the ground or threw it loose in the loft of a barn with a pitchfork. He was in his 90's when he died. Raised 4 children and was "succcessful". But that approach would not work now. But, he was happy with life.
Dave
Well-known member
I knew a guy who had 3 houses. They were about 3 years old and not paid off. The company jerked his contract because he complained too loudly about something. Another company wouldn't give him a contract. He went bankrupt. Bank took his place and sold it. The chicken company gave the new owner a contract to raise birds for them.
